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New British Aircraft Carriers- Made Me Chuckle!!


tonyot

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On ‎02‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 6:24 AM, georgeusa said:

So, let me get this straight. Somebody in power thinks the current carrier situation is not long term viable and convinces government funds should be expended to build bigger aircraft carriers so more aircraft can be carried. Then, while the big carriers are being built, somebody else thinks it a good idea to eliminate the navy having aircraft.  Why clutter a new aircraft carrier up with planes?  So now you have an aircraft carrier belonging to a navy without planes?  And the present idea is maybe the Air Force would like to occasionally use the navy's air craft carriers as a transport and have less aircraft on the big carriers than you did on the little old carriers?  And I thought the US military industrial complex was screwed up. We can't hold a candle to the above scenario!

 

The Navy will still have aircraft, the second UK F35 squadron standing up will be a Navy one.

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8 hours ago, tonyot said:

I know the RN has ATC and Fighter Controllers,.....I was just being pedantic about it being the RAF control tower for the RAF jets. The Crabs would run the entire Air Wing given half the chance! They even have a private regiment of duffers who wear combats and pretend to be soldiers after doing the 5 miler of death!  

 

Tony

When my lad was doing his RM training there was a youtube video doing the rounds showing the talk they give to them saying they need to complete the 5miler so they can stand toe to toe with the Paras and Marines after they do it :lol:

Nothing like a good youtube video to get the inter service rivalry going a

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9 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

tonyot,  keeping up the anti-RAF bile I see, good to see you only have the one record.

Only when it comes to their messing about with naval aviation in this country which is a top brass issue,......otherwise I have the utmost respect for the RAF and the lads and lasses who have served in it and continue to this day,......my favourite posting was on attachment to the RAF at Brize Norton,.....so I`m not anti RAF at all,...... but thanks for the interest, 

Cheers

             Tony

Edit,....apart from the RAF Regt,.....NOBODY likes them, not even the RAF!! 

And here is the five miler of death video,..... not fit to lick the boots of the Paras and Marines and as for special forces,....please!!; 

 

Edited by tonyot
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47 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Only when it comes to their messing about with naval aviation in this country which is a top brass issue,......otherwise I have the utmost respect for the RAF and the lads and lasses who have served in it and continue to this day,......my favourite posting was on attachment to the RAF at Brize Norton,.....so I`m not anti RAF at all,...... but thanks for the interest, 

Cheers

             Tony

Edit,....apart from the RAF Regt,.....NOBODY likes them, not even the RAF!! 

And here is the five miler of death video,..... not fit to lick the boots of the Paras and Marines and as for special forces,....please!!; 

 

 

Mate, you always spout the RAF killed off the FAA rubbish, based on some one eyed Pongo view of the world. If their Airships tried, they obviously failed, those two great big lumps of metal we will be putting to sea in the next couple of years are a testament to that.  (And I can't wait to see those two giving it some around the world by the way). 

 

As for the RAF Regt.  I certainly don't see them as day in day out up there with the Para's Marines, SF etc, but I would suggest that Regiments such as the Rifles aren't up there either, and I am sure that they would not consider themselves as second to anyone either.   

 

 

HOWEVER....I don't get the RAF Regt thing either, although there is an historic reasons that they were formed.  I can't say I have seen enough of them on a day to day basis in a relevant environment understand whether they are top quality or not...but don't forget someone has to look after the barrier lifting duties.  On that basis at least they have a relevant daily role as opposed to the Parachute Regiment whom we spend a lot of money on for very little Regimental sized Airborne assault action since I guess Suez ? ;)

 

Sorry, tried to get rid of that god-awful vid but failed.

2 minutes ago, PLC1966 said:

 

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2 hours ago, Agent K said:

 

The Navy will still have aircraft, the second UK F35 squadron standing up will be a Navy one.

 

Mate,  the Squadron Plates do not mean a lot.  They will be joint manned, land based at RAF Marham.

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14 minutes ago, PLC1966 said:

 

Mate, you always spout the RAF killed off the FAA rubbish, based on some one eyed Pongo view of the world. If their Airships tried, they obviously failed, those two great big lumps of metal we will be putting to sea in the next couple of years are a testament to that.  (And I can't wait to see those two giving it some around the world by the way). 

 

As for the RAF Regt.  I certainly don't see them as day in day out up there with the Para's Marines, SF etc, but I would suggest that Regiments such as the Rifles aren't up there either, and I am sure that they would not consider themselves as second to anyone either.   

 

 

HOWEVER....I don't get the RAF Regt thing either, although there is an historic reasons that they were formed.  I can't say I have seen enough of them on a day to day basis in a relevant environment understand whether they are top quality or not...but don't forget someone has to look after the barrier lifting duties.  On that basis at least they have a relevant daily role as opposed to the Parachute Regiment whom we spend a lot of money on for very little Regimental sized Airborne assault action since I guess Suez ? ;)

 

Sorry, tried to get rid of that god-awful vid but failed.

Hahaha,....keep the video,..it is really funny! A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek but thanks for biting so hard,..... for instance it is just banter for other members of the Armed Forces to slag off the Rockapes,..... even they expect it!  However,.....try telling somebody from the Rifles that they are level with the RAF Regt,.... you might be eating your food through a straw! And,...if you ever slag off the Parachute Regiment to an ex Para`s face,......last jump at Suez or not,.....you`ll be in intensive care!

Cheers again

                     Tony

Edit,....oh,....and I`m NOT your mate,..OK! Are you ex Forces?

Edited by tonyot
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10 minutes ago, tonyot said:

Hahaha,....keep the video,..it is really funny! A lot of what I say is tongue in cheek but thanks for biting so hard,..... for instance it is just banter for other members of the Armed Forces to slag off the Rockapes,..... even they expect it!  However,.....try telling somebody from the Rifles that they are level with the RAF Regt,.... you might be eating your food through a straw! 

Cheers again

                     Tony

 

Tony, I seriously can't bring myself to watch the vid, it would turn my stomach !! However, I have no issues with any unit bigging themselves up, its part of of making them have pride in themselves, their unit and in what they do.  It is just how much they actually believe their own hype what makes me throw up, and unfortunately the Rocks do..  

 

Try telling Rockapes they are level with Rifles, why not, mate, they are all light Infantry, as are the Para's and RM come to think of it.

 

And nothing wrong with a bit of prodding mate.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

  

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Just now, PLC1966 said:

 

Tony, I seriously can't bring myself to watch the vid, it would turn my stomach !! However, I have no issues with any unit bigging themselves up, its part of of making them have pride in themselves, their unit and in what they do.  It is just how much they actually believe their own hype what makes me throw up, and unforyunately the Rocks do..  

 

Try telling Rockapes they are level with Rifles, why not, mate, they are all light Infantry, as are the Para's and RM come to think of it.

 

And nothing wrong with a bit of prodding mate.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

  

Just watch the vid MATE,.....then you`ll understand! A five miler is a warm up for most infantry units,......never mind the Para`s and Marines....and not the actual selection test. I`m all for inter service and inter unit rivalry,.....that is part of what makes the British Armed Forces so good,..... but like you say,...the RAF Regt. actually believe that they are special when they are really just the butt of so many jokes! They are good for guarding the NAAFI and there are actually some good individual soldiers (and using this term in itself is a sign of respect) serving with them,..... but as a whole they are not in the same class as a good Pongo battalion,... well they weren`t in my day anyway. As for Para`s and RM,....you missed off the `elite' from light infantry!!  I think that we have earned that little addition, The main reason for the Para`s not jumping into action since Suez has been the RAF`s reluctance to risk its aircraft and the modern day company strength parachute deployment strength is a very poor do,....and this is linked to the small size of the tactical airlift fleet and parachuting being very low on the RAF`s list of priorities for its use.  

 

Going back to my original reply to you,......it seems that you don`t believe what I feel about the RAF in general,..... which is a shame. I`ve worked very closely with Crab Air and was even recommended for a reward by 33 Sqn,.....  I have the utmiost respect for them,...what I don`t like is the top brass insecurity regarding other services, maybe it stems from the 1920`s when the RAF was fighting for its survival,..... the brass saw the fast jet FAA as a rival for scarce resources and played the long game to kill it off, first with Joint Force Harrier, then having the SHAR binned and finally by binning the Harrier,.....the F-35 started off as a naval project to replace SHAR and has somehow metamorphosed into the Tornado replacement with an added naval role. The RAF will be running the F-35 project from Marham with a token naval presence,..... so although I am pro RAF,....I do not agree with this position.  No other navy has the air force running its fixed wing air assets and for that case most navies also own their own land based maritime patrol aircraft while the Army flies battlefield helicopters,....just saying. 

Cheers

           Tony 

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Being turbo electric powered, the new carriers have no steam system to power traditional catapults for F-35C and the electromagnetic rail gun cats are not yet a proven technology. Yes, the Americans have proven that they can fire inanimate boxes but the main concern has been about electromagnetic interference with avionics and that wasn't bottomed out in the design phases of the RN's new carriers.

 

F-35C wasn't dropped because RAF bad, FAA good or whomever shouted the loudest - despite a general theme of incompetence and political interference in defence procurement generally - but rather because nobody was certain that there was a design solution to actually launch the things without a total redesign of some of the carrier design fundamentals such as its powerplant.

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2 hours ago, tonyot said:

Just watch the vid MATE,.....then you`ll understand! A five miler is a warm up for most infantry units,......never mind the Para`s and Marines....and not the actual selection test. I`m all for inter service and inter unit rivalry,.....that is part of what makes the British Armed Forces so good,..... but like you say,...the RAF Regt. actually believe that they are special when they are really just the butt of so many jokes! They are good for guarding the NAAFI and there are actually some good individual soldiers (and using this term in itself is a sign of respect) serving with them,..... but as a whole they are not in the same class as a good Pongo battalion,... well they weren`t in my day anyway. As for Para`s and RM,....you missed off the `elite' from light infantry!!  I think that we have earned that little addition, The main reason for the Para`s not jumping into action since Suez has been the RAF`s reluctance to risk its aircraft and the modern day company strength parachute deployment strength is a very poor do,....and this is linked to the small size of the tactical airlift fleet and parachuting being very low on the RAF`s list of priorities for its use.  

 

Going back to my original reply to you,......it seems that you don`t believe what I feel about the RAF in general,..... which is a shame. I`ve worked very closely with Crab Air and was even recommended for a reward by 33 Sqn,.....  I have the utmiost respect for them,...what I don`t like is the top brass insecurity regarding other services, maybe it stems from the 1920`s when the RAF was fighting for its survival,..... the brass saw the fast jet FAA as a rival for scarce resources and played the long game to kill it off, first with Joint Force Harrier, then having the SHAR binned and finally by binning the Harrier,.....the F-35 started off as a naval project to replace SHAR and has somehow metamorphosed into the Tornado replacement with an added naval role. The RAF will be running the F-35 project from Marham with a token naval presence,..... so although I am pro RAF,....I do not agree with this position.  No other navy has the air force running its fixed wing air assets and for that case most navies also own their own land based maritime patrol aircraft while the Army flies battlefield helicopters,....just saying. 

Cheers

           Tony 

And breath.........

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3 hours ago, PLC1966 said:

 

Mate,  the Squadron Plates do not mean a lot.  They will be joint manned, land based at RAF Marham.

 

I know that, but number plates is all we're talking about surely, when 617 stand up, it won't be 617 from the past, or the same in the future, it'll be qualified pilots on type flying the F35 at the time and wearing a 617 badge?

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All the above banter is quite fun to watch as a bystander.  But 2 things stand out from the little video clip.

Before I comment let me show my cards and say I am a Ship's Master in the Merchant Navy, so no, I have not been in the forces.

However a lot of the same rules regarding conduct and respect do apply as we are essentially operating a rigid rank structure and have to lead by example.

So, back to our RAF regiment video.

1. Take your hands out of your pockets and stand still.  You are gyrating and wobbling about like a teenage kid in a club on a Saturday night.  Show respect for your men by having the courtesy to address them correctly.

2. Be proud of the unit you are in, of course, but the way he carries on he is more likely to foster insecurity than to promote pride.  Pity.

3. It is quite funny.

 

 

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F-35C is a better aircraft, but the additional thru life costs to support a cat & trap carrier was considered too much. The additional manpower to operate cats & maintain wires etc (& training AND assuming these people aren't always at sea thus need replacements ashore x 40 years) is considerable. When difficult decisions were being made, there was still some risk with the EMALS not guaranteed to work properly.

 

Now the next question is the requirement to provide AAR support. Boeing has allegedly made an offer for some Osprey that meets the COD & Tanker requirement, at a fly away price LESS than what we've just bought some new chinook for......except there is NO MONEY anywhere in Defence. 

 

As to manpower shortages, it is worse than at the time of Napoleon.....and we all know how the Senior Service fixed that....(I'd be very nervous of getting too drunk in pubs near the South Coast for a few years to come, only to wake up sailing past Round Tower on a 9 month trip!)

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When the QE ships were designed the MoD was fed the line by BAE Systems that they could be equipped with cats and traps at a later date, and enough flexibility was built into the design to allow it.

 

Jump ahead to SDSR 2010, and the announcement that the UK would switch to F-35Cs rather than F-35Bs. At this point BAE, as the prime contractor, said, "yes of course. Oh, by the way, it will cost £x billion extra." At this point the MoD reverted back to F-35Bs. Another triumph.

 

With the higher cost and the lower capability of the F-35B against the F-35A, however, there does seem to be interest gaining in switching to a mixed force of 'As and 'Bs rather than sticking with just the 'B. In my view it makes a lot of sense as I think they will be doing very little STOVL ops on land.

 

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6 hours ago, tonyot said:

,....apart from the RAF Regt,.....NOBODY likes them, not even the RAF!! 

 

 

TA Parachute Course in the Spring of 1972 waiting at Weston-on-the Green for the road transport back to Abingdon having already taken one giant step for mankind that morning and hoping to get another in that afternoon were being entertained by an RAF Flight Sergeant PJI who had just finished hurling abuse at the Falcons through one of those big trolley mounted loudspeakers they use there after they all missed their target circle and then then shouts out across the drop zone 'What do you call a group of airmen wandering around a hangar eating bananas? .................... RAF Regiment Trade Test !!'.

 

However back to the future of RN Carriers, still time for ..............................

 

899%20NAS%20RAFALE_zpswhhx5ecb.jpg

 

(Done this a few years ago but didn't manage to overlay a Firestreak on the outer wing launcher as obvioiusly there would have to be savings somewhere)

 

Attended a presentation on the new carriers at Rosyth last year and the capability does remain inbuilt for them eventually to be converted at suitable profit to 'cat & trap' operations at some point if required (and the Americans get the new technology to work).

Edited by Des
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The Rafale looks very nice in those markings, although I doubt that we`ll see Royal Navy titles on a fixed wing combat aircraft for a very long time unfortunately! Good old Weston eh,.....were you in 15 Para,...... the hard men of Scotland battalion? If so,...did you know Billy the big yin?

Cheers

         Tony

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No  , 300 Troop 131 (Para) Sqn. Royal Engineers based in Grangemouth which after my time was taken over by the Royal Marines Reserves when the Army cut back the TA Airborne Brigade.        Not sure about Billy  from 15 (Scottish) but had a big lad from Glasgow called 'Mac' something who only seemed to have one of his front teeth left with us when we did a month in Sharjah in 1973 , he had been in for years and was a definite character.      

 

Filled a seat on a drop with their heavy weapons platoon over Lydd on one occasion and those guys put military parachuting into an entirely new perspective , one thing jumping or even taking that step up onto the ramp of a Herc with a nicely squared-off bergen full of old car batteries to simulate a load of PE hooked to your chest compared to the mortar tubes or baseplates and the like that they were toting. 

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4 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Being turbo electric powered, the new carriers have no steam system to power traditional catapults for F-35C and the electromagnetic rail gun cats are not yet a proven technology. Yes, the Americans have proven that they can fire inanimate boxes but the main concern has been about electromagnetic interference with avionics and that wasn't bottomed out in the design phases of the RN's new carriers.

 

F-35C wasn't dropped because RAF bad, FAA good or whomever shouted the loudest - despite a general theme of incompetence and political interference in defence procurement generally - but rather because nobody was certain that there was a design solution to actually launch the things without a total redesign of some of the carrier design fundamentals such as its powerplant.

 

Was there an issue to do with the size of the Carrier as well, I saw a story a couple of weeks ago that the Carriers were dropped in size to save money to appease a certain one eyed Chancellor.  But by the time the total redesign had been carried out, not only could they not fit the cat and traps, but the cost of the carriers had gone up and delivery was delayed by a further two years.

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45 minutes ago, Des said:

 

 

TA Parachute Course in the Spring of 1972 waiting at Weston-on-the Green for the road transport back to Abingdon having already taken one giant step for mankind that morning and hoping to get another in that afternoon were being entertained by an RAF Flight Sergeant PJI who had just finished hurling abuse at the Falcons through one of those big trolley mounted loudspeakers they use there after they all missed their target circle and then then shouts out across the drop zone 'What do you call a group of airmen wandering around a hangar eating bananas? .................... RAF Regiment Trade Test !!'.

 

However back to the future of RN Carriers, still time for ..............................

 

899%20NAS%20RAFALE_zpswhhx5ecb.jpg

 

(Done this a few years ago but didn't manage to overlay a Firestreak on the outer wing launcher as obvioiusly there would have to be savings somewhere)

 

Attended a presentation on the new carriers at Rosyth last year and the capability does remain inbuilt for them eventually to be converted at suitable profit to 'cat & trap' operations at some point if required (and the Americans get the new technology to work).

 

Blimey, Navy going French.  Nelson would be turning in his grave.

 

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2 minutes ago, Des said:

No  , 300 Troop 131 (Para) Sqn. Royal Engineers based in Grangemouth which after my time was taken over by the Royal Marines Reserves when the Army cut back the TA Airborne Brigade.        Not sure about Billy  from 15 (Scottish) but had a big lad from Glasgow called 'Mac' something who only seemed to have one of his front teeth left with us when we did a month in Sharjah in 1973 , he had been in for years and was a definite character.      

 

Filled a seat on a drop with their heavy weapons platoon over Lydd on one occasion and those guys put military parachuting into an entirely new perspective , one thing jumping or even taking that step up onto the ramp of a Herc with a nicely squared-off bergen full of old car batteries to simulate a load of PE hooked to your chest compared to the mortar tubes or baseplates and the like that they were toting. 

I know the unit that you mean Des,....I think that they are classed as Para Commando nowadays? As a medic I used to jump with a stretcher on the side of my bergan which was handy getting out of the door with and loads of heavy med kit and a radio/batteries in my bergen which was never nicely squared off!! Mind you,....if you packed it right the stretcher leg could touch the floor which was handy at action stations!  Massive respect for anybody wearing a maroon beret in the 70`s,

Cheers

         Tony

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1 hour ago, PLC1966 said:

 

Blimey, Navy going French.  Nelson would be turning in his grave.

 

 

It'll never happen. The airframe is virtually an irrelevance nowadays. People can and do design jets at home which fly well.

 

It's all about avionics and mission systems. Rafale doesn't work with Anglo-American mission equipment and wont without a total redesign.

 

It would be simpler to navalise Typhoon.

 

That still doesn't get away from the fact that the carriers have been designed for STOVL aircraft and can't be retrofitted for cats and traps without significant time and money.

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4 hours ago, FIGHTS ON said:

F-35C is a better aircraft, but the additional thru life costs to support a cat & trap carrier was considered too much. The additional manpower to operate cats & maintain wires etc (& training AND assuming these people aren't always at sea thus need replacements ashore x 40 years) is considerable. When difficult decisions were being made, there was still some risk with the EMALS not guaranteed to work properly.

 

Now the next question is the requirement to provide AAR support. Boeing has allegedly made an offer for some Osprey that meets the COD & Tanker requirement, at a fly away price LESS than what we've just bought some new chinook for......except there is NO MONEY anywhere in Defence. 

 

As to manpower shortages, it is worse than at the time of Napoleon.....and we all know how the Senior Service fixed that....(I'd be very nervous of getting too drunk in pubs near the South Coast for a few years to come, only to wake up sailing past Round Tower on a 9 month trip!)

 

Good post, and for all the keep the fleet flying, Manpower and Money are the real issues.

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8 hours ago, tonyot said:

Just watch the vid MATE,.....then you`ll understand! A five miler is a warm up for most infantry units,......never mind the Para`s and Marines....and not the actual selection test. I`m all for inter service and inter unit rivalry,.....that is part of what makes the British Armed Forces so good,..... but like you say,...the RAF Regt. actually believe that they are special when they are really just the butt of so many jokes!

 

Mate, I really have no time for the RAF Regt, I spent years having poor opinions of them, I will not watch a video of them, end of.

 

They are good for guarding the NAAFI and there are actually some good individual soldiers (and using this term in itself is a sign of respect) serving with them,.....

 

Individually there are some decent guys in the Regiment, but usually they were at there best when on their own, for example on a course.

 

but as a whole they are not in the same class as a good Pongo battalion,... well they weren`t in my day anyway. As for Para`s and RM,....you missed off the `elite' from light infantry!!  I think that we have earned that little addition,

To be fair the RAF Regiment are not manned, structured, or trained to work as, a normal Infantry Battalion.  As for the elite, nothing wrong with a little pop ;)

Quote

 

The main reason for the Para`s not jumping into action since Suez has been the RAF`s reluctance to risk its aircraft and the modern day company strength parachute deployment strength is a very poor do,....and this is linked to the small size of the tactical airlift fleet and parachuting being very low on the RAF`s list of priorities for its use.  

I am sorry, but the years in the desert proved the RAF was not precious about its airframes,  The bigger issue is the world has moved on from Regiment or Brigade sized drops into hostile environments.  Short of the baddies coming out of the East when all bets would be off (and all Cold War Warriors would get their call up papers), there is no appetite in the Goverment or the Public for the losses that would entail.  Even 16AAB was to be heli-borne and not lobbed in. 

 

Going back to my original reply to you,......it seems that you don`t believe what I feel about the RAF in general,..... which is a shame. I`ve worked very closely with Crab Air and was even recommended for a reward by 33 Sqn,.....  I have the utmiost respect for them,...what I don`t like is the top brass insecurity regarding other services, maybe it stems from the 1920`s when the RAF was fighting for its survival

 

So you are basing prejudices on something from nearly a hundred years ago,  when the top brass of the RAF were....oh yeah, ex-Army Royal Flying Corp, having learnt their Political Skills at Sandhurst.,...

 

.. the brass saw the fast jet FAA as a rival for scarce resources and played the long game to kill it off, first with Joint Force Harrier, then having the SHAR binned and finally by binning the Harrier,.....

At the time the choice was between keeping the Harrier and the Tornado in service, and the Tornado was kept as it was a better all round attack aircraft in the long term and not just great for short hops in Afganistan.  If you remember at the time the biggest portion of the defence budget was not surprisingly going to Percy, the blame lies solely with the treasury and the Politicians for getting us into two conflicts without the financial support to do so and nobody else.  .  

Quote

the F-35 started off as a naval project to replace SHAR and has somehow metamorphosed into the Tornado replacement with an added naval role. The RAF will be running the F-35 project from Marham with a token naval presence,..... so although I am pro RAF,....I do not agree with this position.  

 

Don't be silly. the F-35 was always going to be the Tornado replacement.  There has been nothing else about, or planned to be about, that will do the job for the next 30-50 years (we won't be able to afford to replace them in the next couple of decades at least).  As for token Naval presence, the poor old Navy has been screwed over and lost so much they will struggle to man the Carriers let lone a full Air Wing and the supporting Ships, 

 

No other navy has the air force running its fixed wing air assets

Fair point, but when did you leave the Military ?  Joint, officially Purple but generally coloured Green, has been the Mantra for the last two decades.

Quote

 

and for that case most navies also own their own land based maritime patrol aircraft while the Army flies battlefield helicopters,....just saying. 

 

Just saying Maritime Patrol is not Navy in a lot a countries, lazy generalisation there mate.  

 

Fair enough on the BH though. 

Quote

Cheers

           Tony 

 

Sorry the Paragraphs all over the shop, the IT not playing nicely.

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