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Why no injected 1:48 Scimitar ?


gareth

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Given the number of bankers who have "committed suicide"* or had "accidents" leading to death over the past few years, you're closer the mark than you may think.

 

 

*One of whom shot himself 10 ten times with a nail gun, including a shot to the back of the neck that was impossible for him to do!

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I would suspect that you might stand a better chance of making money with something like a Scimitar than you would with a mainstream type these days for the reasons I mentioned in my last post. How can you improve on the Brand X, Y or Z kit of the Spitcane just released a year or two ago. So, if you based your projections on how that other brands kit of that particular aircraft sold you may find that bears no relation to how well yours will. If the existing kit has a strong reputation you will struggling against the reputation that kit already has. Taking a punt on something odd/rare/niche which has never been kitted well or in quantity may be a smarter move.

 

As for how long it needs to produce to make money I have no professional experience but Airfix, Revell etc. are still turning kits out of molds that are somewhere around 70 years old so I am guessing they feel that it is worthwhile to produce and package kits from those venerable old moulds.

 

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The fact is this: A  new Scimitar hasn't been released by anyone, because I'm guessing the tooling costs for a large, single user airframe don't currently justify the return on investment. 

 

If Airfix decide to go back into the 50's/ 60's jet market then the ONE model that will sell is the Hawker Hunter. Period, Full Stop.  Multiple versions, worldwide and lengthy operator use.

Academy are still reboxing their so-so ( and I'm being REALLY polite there) effort with new decals - so there is obviously a market.

 

Personally I'd love a Scimitar - but then I'd love an F11F Tiger too - which, apart from the FJ2/3, is pretty much the last USN jet fighter to not have a mainstream IM kit ( even the Cutlass got that) - and given the fact that things with stars & bars probably still outsell things with RN on them worldwide, I'm not holding my breath for either. (And yes I have the FM kit before you ask or mention it)

 

Jonners - occasionally perplexed at what is released and what's not.

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Theoretical board meeting, at a let us say large plastic kit manufacturers HQ,

 

Right, product research and development what's you're next idea?

We were thinking of a Hunter, it's British, served around the world, looks pretty and has good colour and load options.

 

Ok, finance what do you think?

Sound good, but is there a Hunter kit out already R&D?

Yes finance, Academy issued one a few years back.

 

So, why should we fund a new one, whats it like?

It's ok, modern tooling, but has some shape issues, and size is out on some parts.

 

Does it sell?

Yes, and it has just been reissued, most buyers won't be bothered about the issues, and the aftermarket stuff has it covered for the more discerning modellers.

 

Hmmm, any other good ideas R&D?

Simkins the 1950s obscure jet fan has come with some pictures and info on a 'Scimitar', it has never been injection tooled before, looks good and has good markings and load options....

 

 

 

Edited by 71chally
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I can understand all the arguments against a 1/48 Scimitar , especially considering Hornby's current financial position , but a fully solvent Airfix might produce one , after all they made a 1/48 Sea Vixen , which could be argued is equally obscure outside of British enthusiast circles.

 

Andrew 

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1 hour ago, 71chally said:

Theoretical board meeting, at a let us say large plastic kit manufacturers HQ,

 

Right, product research and development what's you're next idea?

We were thinking of a Hunter, it's British, served around the world, looks pretty and has good colour and load options.

 

Ok, finance what do you think?

Sound good, but is there a Hunter kit out already R&D?

Yes finance, Academy issued one a few years back.

 

So, why should we fund a new one, whats it like?

It's ok, modern tooling, but has some shape issues, and size is out on some parts.

 

Does it sell?

Yes, and it has just been reissued, most buyers won't be bothered about the issues, and the aftermarket stuff has it covered for the more discerning modellers.

 

Hmmm, any other good ideas R&D?

Simkins the 1950s obscure jet fan has come with some pictures and info on a 'Scimitar', it has never been injection tooled before, looks good and has good markings and load options....

 

 

 

 

Theoretical board meeting continued...

 

So Simpkins tell us more...

 

Well there's this jet, it was only ever operated by the Fleet Air Arm and a few test units, to be honest, it was a bit of a lacklustre disappointment...

 

So no foreign users in important markets like Sweden, the Middle East, Far East, Africa, South America, other European markets?

 

Well no, says Simpkins

 

Right then R&D, tell us more about this Hunter thingammy and why people would buy ours over the Academy kit??

 

Because we could break the mould down to include all the sub variants which would feed into the UK, Sweden, Dutch, Belgian, South American - Peru I think for the earlier versions, then with later versions we could cover the UK, Dutch, Swiss, Middle East, Far East including India, African markets, all over the world really and then if we did a two seater, well nobody's done one of those and we could easily clean up as most users had those too!

 

Tell us more, good looking jet this Hunter?

 

Definitely, R&D producing pictures of arguably one of the finest looking aircraft ever made...

 

Simpkins slumps into his chair at this point knowing that the Scimitar would never win in a beauty competition with the Hunter

 

So why will people buy our version of the Hunter?

 

Well, they only buy the Academy because there's no choice, if we covered off all of the options and didn't make the same mistakes as Academy we could keep selling it for years and years and years to all of those important markets...

 

Simpkins, you're fired!

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3 hours ago, Wez said:

Simpkins, you're fired!

Every story has to have a happy ending so..

Simpkins returns to his office where he downloads all the wiggly amps kind of stuff they got when they shone that light thing over the Scimitar at Yeovilton.

He forms his own company with the compensation he got for being wrongfully dismissed and bought the Scimitar stuff from the company at a reasonable price because they thought he was just bonkers.They never did find out he already had it.

The rest is history as he sold thousands ,mainly to Britmodellers and is now working on the production of his latest 'must have' kit,a (feel free to insert the subject of your dreams here and later feel free to start a thread because your kit isn't on the list))

 

So the spirit of the Farley Fruitbat lives on.

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23 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Personally I'd love a Scimitar - but then I'd love an F11F Tiger too - which, apart from the FJ2/3, is pretty much the last USN jet fighter to not have a mainstream IM kit...

The Tiger HAD a mainstream IM kit, close to 60 years ago, even if no one in their right mind would probably contemplate building the Lindberg these days. 

A well researched Hunter would be a licence to print money, I guess. But then why did it take 50 years for a successor to Hawk's Banshee?  Some things in life aren't particularly logical. Or so it seems. ...

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10 hours ago, Scimitar said:

Every story has to have a happy ending so..

 

 

You're right, every story deserves a happy ending.

 

Contrary to what you might think, I would love to see a Scimitar in 1/48th, l'd love to see one in 1/72nd more but I'd only ever buy one for completeness.

 

Contrary to what's been stated in this thread, the number of Scimitar schemes really are limited, there are probably more Hunter aerobatic team schemes than the sum total of variations in Scimitar schemes.

 

Given that we can buy kits of Luftwaffe paper projects from mainstream manufacturers there's definitely a place for the Scimitar but there are far more worthy, internationally popular and successful British aircraft that deserve to be properly and importantly, accurately kitted before the rather hum-drum Scimitar (yes I am talking about the Hunter in four versions, the Vampire in at least three versions and the single seat Venom in two versions).

 

I would buy several of the Hunter, Vampire and Venom versus one Scimitar, I suspect I'm not the only one.

 

I would suggest that your estimate of the Scimitar's popularity even amongst the BM collective is over estimated.

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1 hour ago, Wez said:

 

 l'd love to see one in 1/72nd more but I'd only ever buy one for completeness.

 

I would buy several of the Hunter, Vampire and Venom versus one Scimitar, I suspect I'm not the only one.

 

I would suggest that your estimate of the Scimitar's popularity even amongst the BM collective is over estimated.

Oh thank God, a voice of reason, Airfix would sell a helluva lot more in 1/72 than in 1/48 & probably at a better margin, easier to plump up the margin on an inherently cheaper model than to have to scrimp on a more expensive model to keep it viable, plus a 1/72 Hunter, (early for preference but adaptable to later versions, all the above arguements for one of these apply) & Sea Vixen & Javelin, then you'd be talking, for the same reason that 1/72 makes more sense for Hornby nowadays than does 1/48, imho of course. :)

Steve.

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Logically, given CAD, these days Airfix ought to consider producing British aircraft in both scales - 1:72 for the younger modeller; 1:48 for us old fogies with dodgy eyesight!

 

Javelin and Sea Vixen in 1:72 for a start - followed by Hunter, Vampire and Venom, and maybe Swift, in both scales.

Not sure that there is enough market for a Scimitar.

 

The aircraft that nobody has mentioned is the Canberra. Airfix's 1:48 effort had many faults, but the B.2 boxing did sell out to such an extent that they recently reissued it - a new tool is both scales would surely sell very well, both here and overseas.

 

P.S. How about a Brigand?

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15 hours ago, Wez said:

Theoretical board meeting continued...

 

So Simpkins tell us more...

 

Well there's this jet, it was only ever operated by the Fleet Air Arm and a few test units, to be honest, it was a bit of a lacklustre disappointment...

 

So no foreign users in important markets like Sweden, the Middle East, Far East, Africa, South America, other European markets?

 

Well no, says Simpkins

 

Right then R&D, tell us more about this Hunter thingammy and why people would buy ours over the Academy kit??

 

Because we could break the mould down to include all the sub variants which would feed into the UK, Sweden, Dutch, Belgian, South American - Peru I think for the earlier versions, then with later versions we could cover the UK, Dutch, Swiss, Middle East, Far East including India, African markets, all over the world really and then if we did a two seater, well nobody's done one of those and we could easily clean up as most users had those too!

 

Tell us more, good looking jet this Hunter?

 

Definitely, R&D producing pictures of arguably one of the finest looking aircraft ever made...

 

Simpkins slumps into his chair at this point knowing that the Scimitar would never win in a beauty competition with the Hunter

 

So why will people buy our version of the Hunter?

 

Well, they only buy the Academy because there's no choice, if we covered off all of the options and didn't make the same mistakes as Academy we could keep selling it for years and years and years to all of those important markets...

 

Simpkins, you're fired!

 

The 1/48 Academy Hunter is not up to much, but can be fixed easily. Which clearly means there is no money to be made producing a Scimitar, it should NEVER happen...? Ah, the mysteries of Comparative Advantage! (Not to mention Shareholder Value.)

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I've got no interest in the Scimitar, and there are many other aircraft I would rather see in mainstream kit form, but this thread is fascinating. Just as well, as it seems set to run and run and run…..

Incidentally, I just had a look on Scalemates 'Cool Facts' page and out of the 100 most wanted kits (all kits, not just aircraft) five early British jets are on the list, predictably: Victor, Meteor, Sea Vixen, Buccaneer and Javelin (in that order), So there seems to be significant interest in this subject.

 

From the 100 most bought kits, there is: Vampire, Sea Vixen, Lightning, Gnat, Nimrod & Harrier

 

And interestingly, all except one of the models above are Airfix kits.

 

I know there are currency problems affecting Airfix adversely at the moment, but out of the top 100 most bought kits 32 are Airfix, and out of the the 100 most wanted they have 23 kits.

 

So, from my extensive, in-depth, 10 minute research, I have conclusively concluded that there is a demand for early British jets and Airfix kits. So, perhaps there is something in this 'Airfix doing a Scimitar' business.

 

Or, I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about – it's one or the other, and I'm sure you will probably tell me in some detail.

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Interesting arguments here, lets hope someone at Airfix saw the Xtrakit 1/72 Scimitar going for £50+ on you know where last night. It certainly gave me an education.

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I think one question we have to ask when talking in terms of 'Hunter will sell way better than a Scimitar as it was used so widely and was a wonderful aircraft'.

If this is the case then why haven't the kit makers cottoned to this fact and produced this kit which would be in such high demand?

One has to assume that at least some of the people employed by the various model companies know what is going on in the modelling community and, if this is the case, they more than likely know something about the true demand for a Hunter kit that keeps them from issuing one.

Perhaps the plans, molds and even box art is locked away somewhere and they are just waiting for the right time to start production. I am betting there is a section of the modelling world who will jump on the weird and wonderful or pretty looking, even if they know nothing about the subject in question.

To me, although the Hunter and the Buccaneer were very successful designs that worked well and were very popular as functional military aircraft, they are not the most eyecatching to the passing buyer(of all ages) who fancies sticking some plastic together with no knowledge of their illustrious history or, indeed the passing wife, mother, gran who is ignorant of the effectiveness of any given real aircraft design.

 

I have to say that, from an aesthetic point of view, the Scimitar is quite an attractive aircraft. It looks fast but slightly retro, a wee bit 'Thunderbirds' mixed with a bit of Harrier type styling.

 

You can't underestimate 'looks' when it comes to wanting to sell things The Spitfires popularity is evidence not only that it was an excellent aircraft but also that it had it's fair share of looks. Personally I prefer the Hurricane but some folks seem to take offence as it's stubby look and humpy back.

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1 hour ago, Gorbygould said:

 

I've got no interest in the Scimitar, and there are many other aircraft I would rather see in mainstream kit form,

 

Good that you contributed to the discussion though. Your comment probably applies to the majority of Britmodellers too.

 

3 hours ago, Wez said:

I would suggest that your estimate of the Scimitar's popularity even amongst the BM collective is over estimated.

There's a few but as to an estimate,I haven't a clue.

1/72 was mentioned again and that would be my choice but looking at the popularity of 1/48 at moment it would seem more likely to be in that scale.

I too can't understand why a Hunter hasn't been done (an accurate one anyway) but there again neither has there been an accurate C-130 which I suspect serves or has served in more countries than the Hunter (just a guess..I have no inclination to check.)The list is bound to be neverending until a kit has been made of everything that every flew.

A Brigand would look nice in a line up of the Bristol twins but if we apply the argument about operators,colour schemes and length of service in relation to it like has been done with the Scimitar we are unlikely to see that.

 

I like the Scimitar (in case you hadn't noticed) but can honestly say that there isn't an aircraft that I can say I have no interest in.I'm not going to throw the rattle out of the pram if the latest release turns out to be a 1/64th British Oxygen Company Openweave Gentleman's Flying Machi

Discussions like these certainly grow arms and legs don't they?

That's why I like Britmodeller..keeps old grey cells working for just a wee bit longer.

Signing off now before this does turn into Fruitbat version 2.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

The Nimrod in the 100 most bought kits?

I should have added that these lists are from the membership of Scalemates only. But probably a reasonably accurate cross-section of modellers from all around the world.

 

26 minutes ago, Scimitar said:

Discussions like these certainly grow arms and legs don't they?

That's one of the reasons that I like Britmodeller. You don't get discussions like this on Scalemates.

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2 hours ago, Gorbygould said:

Or, I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about – it's one or the other, and I'm sure you will probably tell me in some detail.

probably like the most of us here, but all good for discussion!

 

All that I can say is that my alter ego, Simkins, has taken a bashing!

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4 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Oh thank God, a voice of reason,

 

Steve.

 

I've never been called that before...   ...there's a few on BM who have worked with me and know me well nought to testify to that, oh well, there's a first time for everything!  Thanks!! :thumbsup:

 

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

All that I can say is that my alter ego, Simkins, has taken a bashing!

 

I'm sure he'll bounce back in his usual irrepressible manner!

 

I think this has been a good discussion, nobodies thrown their toys out of the pram have they?

Edited by Wez
Speelung due to fat figners!
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5 hours ago, Wez said:

 

I think this has been a good discussion, nobodies thrown their toys out of the pram have they?

3...2....1...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           just kidding!

 

Did I mention that the new Hunter would have to be a GA11 with 764 Squadron markings and the Hercules XV208 so that Simpkins can produce the conversion kit for the Hercules C1 and C3 and a shedload of other Hunters.

Richard

Not :poop:stirring..merely stimulating debate.

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11 minutes ago, Scimitar said:

3...2....1...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           just kidding!

 

Did I mention that the new Hunter would have to be a GA11 with 764 Squadron markings

 

As a GA.11 is merely an F.4 with its teeth removed and an added hook, I don't see why it can't be included alongside a 93 or 118 Sqn and Peruvian or Swedish F.4...

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OK, a quick resume of today's posts reveal we need a/1/48 Hunter (The Airfix rep at Telford was Astounded that there was no decent kit already)

Many of us want a 1/48 Scimitar (someone paid £50 for an Xtrakit one on ebay?) I recently made one and there's nothing wrong with it. :tomato:Seriously - it's not Tamigawa which everyone seems to expect, but it's far from Mach 2 territory.

Another mentioned a 1/72 Canberra B2. Well S&M will give us that in November, and if it's a good as the Sycamore or Provost, we're in for a treat.

New tool Buccaneers are in the pipeline 1/72 and 1/48

A Javelin and SeaVixen in 1/72. Well the spadework has been done, if Airfix will take up the tooling. Did they both sell out in 1/48?

We have just got the Victor and the Shackleton, and I bet they are selling well enough.

A Venom in both scales aught to sell, we exported a few here and there, and there is no competition.

C-130 was mentioned. I suspect Italeri might go that route before Airfix.

I suspect the project guys at Airfix would love to give us all of the above, if the kitty was overflowing, but there's the rub.

 

As the saying goes, there's nowt so queer as folk. Considering the supposed demand and silly prices Valiants fetch on evilbay, I'm surprised sales were not brisk at MK recently. One guy bought one, and the other two went unsold. :shrug:

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Remember that Airfix are 'heavily into' WWll, giving us one, or at the most two, Cold War subjects per year.  So don't expect the above list to be cleared or even significantly reduced by the end of the decade.

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