Help required looking for Mirage III BJ # 286

[basket]

Hello all !

 

As far as I know , Israeli Mirage III BJ # 86/286 scored 4.5 mig kills .

I'm searching for a photograp of the jet ( left side ) with standard israeli camo and the famous mig kills.

Does anyone among you able to help me ?

 

Thanks for reading and best regards.

 

Edited April 19, 2017 by basket

[TBC]

HI,

 

      Just wondering on where your info regarding 4.5 MiG kills for 86/286 comes from? Do you have a year, pilot or squadron the aircraft served with when these kills occurred? IsraDecal IAF-71 Israeli Air Force Mirage IIIC/B, has a photo of this jet from the right hand side when it served with The Negev squadron in 1980, after any conflict - it is camouflaged. The same photo of 286 appears in A. Dor's book, From Mirage to Kfir Part 1, The Mirage IIIC Shahak.  Any jet in the decal set that has kills is noted and decals for kill markings are provided. There is no mention of kills for any IIIBJ's. Having said that, there is a photo of IIIBJ 789 (in natural metal finish) in Osprey Aircraft of The Aces No.59, Israeli Mirage III and Nesher Aces, which mentions that it had 2 kills during The Yom Kippur war. The same photo of IIIBJ 789 also appears in the IsraDecal set but no mention of kills. Aircraft 89 also appears in A.Dor's book (camouflaged), but the position of the boarding ladder and the person standing on it make it impossible to determine if any kill markings are present. I believe there were 4 IIIBJ's serving the various squadrons, and they were tail numbers 86, 87, 88 and 89.

 

The Osprey book mentioned above does have an appendices with kills but I haven't looked through it.

 

 

[basket]

Hi TBC and thanks for your interest

 

In fact , I cross checked informations from different books :

 

Dassault Mirage III/50 - Salvador Mafe Huertas - Osprey Air Combat .1990 -

Mirage - the combat log - S. Mafe Huertas - Schiffer .1996

Israeli Fighter Aces - Peter B Mersky - SPP and W 1997

Shahak - A Dor  - AD Graphics 1999.

 

In addition to that ,  since 1999 extra info emerged through the Internet , including an interview of master jet ace Giora Epstein himself .

 

To sum up :

 

Giora Epstein got 3 kills with this bird on march 24th '73,  but I have no information about the other 1.5.

I've 2 photos of the right side ( 190 squadron ) and a tiny one , in flight of the left side ( same period ) but it's hard to say wether it wears kill markings or not.

 

Checking my decal stocks , I realized that I own Aeromaster decals sheet 48-437 , researched by Ra'anan Weiss , on which Shahak 286 wears 4.5 kills , but the scheme of the camo provided by Aeromaster is not accurate compared with the photo of right side mentionned above.

 

 That's why I'm searching a left side photo to check the camo and kill markings .

 

Thank's for reading , and thanks for yout help.

[TBC]

Okay. I went through the Shahak/Nesher victories listing in the Osprey book I mentioned in my original post. The following is what is credited to A/C #86:

 

18/10/73 - 1 kill.

Michael Zuk - 101 Sqd -  A/C #86 - Egyptian Su-7/20 - Cannon

 

24/10/73 - 3 Kills.

Giora Epstein - 101 Sqd - A/C#86 - Egyptian Mig-21's - 2 by AIM-9D and 1 by cannon.

 

1/2 kills are listed. There are 2 listings for Shahak's which are 1/2 kills wherein no A/C# is given. But there are also lots of kills where no A/C# is given, too.

 

Shahak IIIBJ's 88 and 89 are also listed with kills but I didn't really pay attention to that info necessarily.

 

I can't locate my Aeromaster 48-347 at the moment, but the IsraDecal sheet was also done by Weiss so I don't know why the information between the two sets is different/incomplete. Could it be that they were done at different times and information known at the time was included? I think IsraDecal IAF-71 was 2008/2009? I know I've had my Aeromaster set way before that. So now you're down to a 1/2 kill and an elusive photo?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by TBC

[basket]

45 minutes ago, TBC said:

  So now you're down to a 1/2 kill and an elusive photo?

 

Hello again TBC , you're right !

 

Meanwhile I ordered 2 magazines about the Yum Kippur war and Israeli aces ..... and I hope getting the missing info .... wait and see ....

 

Last but not least : thanks a lot for your help !!!    ...  and  I hope some other readers might provide THE photo !!!

 

Thanks again for reading and stay tuned !

Edited April 23, 2017 by basket

[TBC]

4 minutes ago, basket said:

 

Hello again TBC , you're right !

 

First of all , thanks a lot for your help and  I hope some other readers might provide THE photo !!!

 

Meanwhile I

You're welcome. I like to research stuff but I spend way too much time doing it. Hey, would you be interested in sharing that tiny, left hand side picture of #86 in flight?

[basket]

@TBC : check your PM.

[basket]

UP ....

Can someone help ?

[basket]

Hi all !

I received the books , and got no extra info .

To sum up  , my request is still a request ! hopefully someone can help ?

[RAGATIGER]

Hi there

 

Well you have to look for the Osprey book Aircraft of the Aces Israeli Mirages

 

[basket]

Hi Ragatiger and thank you for taking some time to provide some advices !

 

Yes you're right about this book and I read it since writing my initial post  ... and I didn't find the photograph  I'm looking for .

 

Thank's again

 

Rgds

[TBC]

I came across another photo of this jet. It is of better quality than the one you sent me but still somewhat out of focus. I played with the image settings as best I could and circled an area wherein I believe a couple of the kill markings can just be made out.  If you check images of other IAF deltas you will see that this is where the kill markings would normally appear. I know you would prefer a crystal clear image but.......... I don't think I am seeing things or seeing what I want to see. Thoughts?

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by TBC

[basket]

Hi TBC ! 

 

Thanks for keeping on searching !

Yes it seems it's the same photo , and I share your analysis :  there are kill markings on this bird .

The thing is : how many of them ? 

Undoubtedly 2 and  surely 4 . 

But 4.5 ??? Impossible to say ....

 

Thanks A LOT for your help !!!

 

To the the other readers of this topic :

1- thanks for reading 

2 - remember : were are  still searching for a cristal clear photo of the port side of this bird .

 

And I'm sure it exists somewhere !!!!

 

Thanks again to all of you and the hunt for this photo continues !!!! 

 

 

 

[basket]

Up !

[Dogsbodyx]

There is a photo of the aircraft with 4.5 kills on page 53 of IsraDecal Publications Israeli Air Force Mini Photo Album #2: The First Jet Squadron - Mirage IIIC/B 1962-79. PM your email address and I'll send you a photo from my phone. The book image is not perfect - a front 45 degree  angle or less used but there are clearly 4 full-kill roundels and a just discernible half-roundel at the end. The half-roundel looks to be the top half only cut off at the 9 O'Clock/ 3 O'Clock line.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Dogsbodyx

[basket]

3 hours ago, Dogsbodyx said:

There is a photo of the aircraft with 4.5 kills on page 50 of IsraDecal Publications Israeli Air Force Mini Photo Album #2: The First Jet Squadron - Mirage IIIC/B 1962-79. PM your email address and I'll send you a photo from my phone. The book image is not perfect - a front 45 degree  angle or less used but there are clearly 4 full-kill roundels and a just discernible half-roundel at the end. The half-roundel looks to be the top half only cut off at the 9 O'Clock/ 3 O'Clock line.

 

 

Thanks very much !!!!

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