Difference between Westland Wyvern S-2 And S-4

[Beefy]

Hi,

I am hoping that somebody out there could help answer this question. What are the differences between the Westland Wyvern S-2 and the S-4. I am hoping to be able to convert the 72nd Scale Trumpeter Westland Wyvern S-4 to an TF-2 variant. I am planning to build it (if possible ) as VW868 which served with ATDU ( Aircraft Torpedo Development Unit. In fact any help with any information about this aircraft would be gratefully appreciated.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Beefy

[71chally]

I think the differences were minor, the biggest one I'm aware of is the dihedral and finlets of the TF.4 tailplane (some earlier ones didn't have the finlets fitted).

Most 2s were converted to 4s, and one thing to watch with online sources is that pictures purporting to be of a TF.2 can actually be of one converted to a TF.4.

 

'Flight' (May 1952) mentions these differences embodied on the TF.4,

'The current strike fighter version, as we have said, is the T.F.4 (Westland Type No. W.35), and this is characterized by a "cut-back" engine cowling, to facilitate the loading of the starter cartridges; a "spear-tipped" Rotol airscrew; stiffer canopy; small fences on the trailing edge (these prevent a slight tug on the ailerons when the dive brakes are closed); modified aileron tabs; a taller fin and rudder, with horn balance; and a dihedral tailplane.'

 

Nice shot of a TF.2 here, and seems to back up what 'Flight' said,

Edited April 20, 2017 by 71chally

[Beefy]

Thank you for the information, that will certainly help a lot.

[rayprit]

I maybe wrong, so, stand to be corrected. The easist way to spot the S4 I believe is................... the S2 had the earlier canopy(the rear part was covered) the S4 when it went into production, had a complete 100% all round clear view................plus also what "Chally" said

[71chally]

S.4s featured both styles of canopy during their service life.

The all clear version ran right from the beginning with the TF.1, the strengthened canopy with the solid rear part was the later version.

 

I think the hardest part of this conversion would be representing the earlier, longer, engine cowling.

There was also the RR Clyde with three bladed props powered TF.2 VP120, if you feel brave!

[Guest]

The Magna Wyvern T.3 had the longer engine cowling.  He did two conversions - one to go with the Frog kit, and a later one to go with the Trumpeter one.  A PM to Chris57 may get you one if he has any left.

[chris57]

This is one of the last kits Martin produced number 9772, my last one went 2 months ago. However Neil Gaunt is now producing this conversion in his AIM range so a check on Hannants site should produce the goods_.

[71chally]

Might look this up myself, hadn't realised that there was a version made for the Trumpeter kit.

Be lovely to see one in 48th!

[71chally]

BTW, I've only just noticed this but the pic I posted is of VW848, the same aircraft you are trying to model.

 

This was the same aircraft lost in Falmouth bay, I think there were small parts of it on display at Cornwall Aeropark at one time.

[Beefy]

Thanks 71chally, that picture is a great help, especially as it has Royal Navy on the fuselage and I would have assumed that it would be Royal Air Force as that seemed to apply to the other aircraft that flew for the ATDU. My late father was posted to the unit and were a mix of RAF and civilians and actually worked for the Ministry of Supply. So far I have found out that the Unit in his time had Brigands, Lincoln, Wyvern, Shorts Seamew assigned to it for the torpedo trials. He moved from Fort Blockhouse Gosport ro RNAS Culdrose and spent the summer on the Isles of Scilly where a lot of the trials were carried out.

[71chally]

Great personal link and info Beefy.

 

At one time the ATDU was going to move to St Mawgan from Gosport, being an RAF unit which would have suited the Lincolns well. Don't know why that fell through, especially as the Royal Navys' NASWDU later moved to St Mawgan to work with the RAFs ASWDU.

 

My grandfather was an airport fireman on St Mary's, Isles of Scilly in the 1950s, and sometimes he would go out on the RAF launch to recover torpedoes from the range, he told a story of one guy losing his hand in a torpedo prop.

 

PS, I think the 'Royal Navy' might have been factory applied.

Edited April 21, 2017 by 71chally

[Beefy]

Small world, one of the launches  used for the trails was a Pinnace 63ft Mk.1 1374 which is now on display at the RAF Museum Hendon. The RAF base on the Isles of Scilly St Marys has a B& B on it.  Thanks to his tour it's where he met his future wife and my mother and the rest is history as they say.

[71chally]

Blimey it is a small world, my mother and her side are all from the Scillies, still lots of family over there, nearly on every inhabited island (except St Martins).  Grandfather had the Carn Thomas guest house, just behind the lifeboat slip way.

 

I hadn't realised that with the launch at Hendon.

[Seahawk]

Peter London's RNAS Culdrose (Sutton, 1999) has a nice photo of Wyvern TF.2 VW868 of the ATDU at Culdrose in early 1954, complete with torpedo and air tail, on p.59.  Unfortunately the rear fuselage is masked by the wing so I can't see what, if any, markings it carries there, apart from the serial.   No dihedral on tailplanes, no finlets, half-metal canopy (at least I think so: could be the way light is catching it).

 

Three points:

• the most striking visual difference from a S.4/5 is the prop blades, which are short and broad, similar to a TF.1's.  This would seem to be supported by Flight's comment about the S.4 moving to a "'spear-tipped' Rotol airscrew.   This won't be apparent in air-to-air shots.
• the rudder is different from that in 71Chally's post above.  In a photo in the Putnam Westland book (p.297) VW880 has a similar rudder, which the caption highlights as having an inset horn balance.  In fact, now I have looked at more pictures, it looks like what became the standard Wyvern rudder.
• to my eyes it appears to have acquired a shorter engine cowl by the photo's date.

Full history of VW868 from the BARG Wyvern booklet:

 

To A&AEE Boscombe Down on 5/12/50, thence to Armstrong-Siddeley Motors, Bitteswell, in 9/52 and used as a development aircraft for engine and prop controls.  Reported with the ATDU at Thorney island in 7/53 and confirmed as arriving with the unit at Gosport on 15/2/54 until ditched in Falmouth Bay by an ATDU pilot, 25/3/54, and not recovered.  (Peter London gives the location as 2 mi ENE of Manacle Point.)

 

So the Culdrose photo was a lucky catch! 

 

HTH

[Beefy]

Thanks for all the information Seahawk, It looks like this conversion will be a real labour of love and not just a quick build,  I have Peter London's RNAS Culdrose  book  with the picture of the Wyvern it's about the only one picture I have managed to track down, it's a shame that it's so hard to get any real information on the ATDU and the aircraft that they flew.

[Seahawk]

19 minutes ago, Beefy said:

Thanks for all the information Seahawk, It looks like this conversion will be a real labour of love and not just a quick build,  I have Peter London's RNAS Culdrose  book  with the picture of the Wyvern it's about the only one picture I have managed to track down, it's a shame that it's so hard to get any real information on the ATDU and the aircraft that they flew.

 

Oh, I don't know.  I thought it was mostly good news: bog standard cowling, bog standard rudder with only the prop blades to make life more complicated.

 

There are a few photos of ATDU aircraft in Geoff Wakeham's RNAS Culdrose 1947-2007:

• Brigand RH773 in natural metal, 1951 (p.37)
• Barracuda III RJ925 in natural metal, 29 May 1951 (p.37)
• Brigand RH749, early 1947 (p.55)  

 

Peter London's In Cornish Skies adds (p.89) a photo of 2 Swordfish, one NF389, and a Barracuda visiting Culdrose in the summer of 1949.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Seahawk

[Beefy]

Apologies got a bit confused, you are right and have just confirmed my suspicions, I have just put the fuselage against the scale plans in the 4 Publications and the Fuselage and tail is pretty spot on for the TF 2. So looks like I have to modify the props and jobs a good one. Many tanks agin for the help.

[71chally]

The air to air pic of VW868 above I believe was taken during its time with Armstrong Siddeley Motors.

 

Luckily you know exactly what you want to build Beefy.

 

There is some good info on the ATDU, and of VW868s development with ASM at the National Archives, but all time and money I guess.

Edited April 23, 2017 by 71chally

[71chally]

On 21/04/2017 at 9:11 PM, Seahawk said:

the most striking visual difference from a S.4/5 is the prop blades, which are short and broad, similar to a TF.1's.  This would seem to be supported by Flight's comment about the S.4 moving to a "'spear-tipped' Rotol airscrew.   This won't be apparent in air-to-air shots

 

I would say that is an optical illusion based on the props parked in the X position.

Looking at S.4s similarly parked the props do look of a similar diameter and shape, the excellent 4+ book shows all the props from the TF.1 to 4 being of the same 13ft diameter, but the Python 3 powered variants (ie S.4s and some adapted 2s) had the narrower 'spear' tip blades.

 

Looking at references the TF.2s were in a constant state of change to get to the final S.4 layout, and were set aside for development purposes, so some are pictured with dihedral tailplanes, long chord engine cowls, differing prop shapes, and rudder shapes.

The short TF.1 style fin/rudder seem to have only been fitted to the three pre-production Wyvern 2s.

Another subtle difference across Wyverns (particularly S.4s) is the windscreen, some having a curved windscreen with the armoured flat glass screen set in behind, some versions doing away with this with the flat screen being the main part of the windscreen assembly.

 

As Seahawk says, doing VW868 as pictured at Culdrose should be fairly straightforward, the canopy though is the all clear version, with the seat giving the appearance of a solid rear portion.

I can't remember if the Trumpeter kit provides both canopy styles? If not, Falcon vacforms did one.

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by 71chally

[Ossington 2]

One of the differences between S2's and 4's, or maybe just a mod between production blocks, involved the folding wingtips. ISTR that with the wings folded, the tips could be positioned so that it was difficult to enter the cockpit, because they overhung the canopy. I think the mod deleted the fold, but the tips didn't touch when the wings were up.   

[Beefy]

Thanks for all your help 71chally & Seahawk , looks like it will be a straight build after all, just need to confirm the colour scheme, it looks like it is painted as per the Feet Air Arm colours of the day. So now excuse to get on with building it, followed swiftly by the Brigand which was overall silver.

 71chally the RAF Base on St Mary's was at Newford and the Chef on camp was Paddy Cronin I have been told, don't know if you knew Paddy.

[71chally]

That wingtip fold was deleted through the S.4 production series, from a certain serial (desperately trying to remember!) onward.

 

The metal framed canopy was a late mod to the S.4, sometime c.1954/55

 

Thanks for that Beefy, my grandad worked with a Paddy, but I don't think it was that surname.

[Seahawk]

Belated response:

• I am very much inclined to agree with 71Chally that the appearance of shorter blades is actually an optical illusion: there is no reference in the Putnam Westland book, the 4+ booklet or the BARG booklet to a prop of anything other than 13' being fitted.  I could even be receptive to the change in blade shape also being an illusion, given how broad standard Wyvern S.4 props can look from certain angles - and equally how slender the prop fitted to the N.11/44 prototype TS371 (4-Plus p.2) looks from a certain angle.  Against that we have the Flight reference to the introduction of "spear" tips.  Don't have the Trumpeter Wyvern kit to hand to see what it depicts: from memory the blades were fairly constant chord, which may play to Beefy's advantage in modelling VW868.
• According to the 4-Plus book the folding wingtips were deleted "from aeroplanes subsequent to the VZ792" which to me means VZ793 onward but may not be quite what the authors meant.
• Ray Sturtivant's RAF Flying Training And Support Units has (p.66) a long list of aircraft which served with the ATDU from its foundation on 11/11/43 to its hiving off to the Ministry of Supply on 30/8/58.  These included such oddities as a Buckingham I (KV471), a Ju 88 (VM874) and a Ju 188 (VN143).  The sample Brigand TF.1 he cites is RH750, ie a 3rd aircraft to add to those listed in Geoff Wakeham's book. 

Good luck with the model: look forward to seeing it!

[Beefy]

Thanks Seahawk that is amazing amount of information. Really appreciate all the help. I will certainly show it once built.

[detail is everything]

just to say some further TF2 photographic material can be found in the October and November 1996 editions of Aeroplane Monthly, which covers all the type's flight test accidents (many fatal) which occurred. 

 

Also vol 9 of the International Air Power Review has a Wyvern article containing other good quality photographs.