Advice on British Mid War Greens

[3DStewart]

Folks, I realise this has probably been asked before, but I can't easily find an answer.

 

I'm building the Italeri/Esci Bishop and want to do the Tunisian or Italian scheme. What green should I use from Humbrol, Revell or Model Color, these being the only ranges readily available to me?

 

Thanks.

Edited April 18, 2017 by 3DStewart

[JackG]

If it is the Khaki Green no.3 you are referring to, there was a past discussion here:

regards,

Jack

[3DStewart]

I don't think it's Khaki Green. The instructions refer to Dark Green (FS 34079), would this be Bronze Green?

Edited April 18, 2017 by 3DStewart

[AgentG]

http://www.mafva.net/other pages/starmer camo.htm

 

I'm thinking "Light Mud" with a SCC 14 pattern is what you are after for that time period.

 

G

[Graham Boak]

Colourcoats are readily available to any modeller willing to buy a dozen tins.  If your main source has been Humbrol and Revell there should be no difficulty in finding that many, but not  just for one Bishop, no.

[3DStewart]

Looking at the discussion linked to above I think overall Khaki Green (S.C.C. 2) looks the most likely.

[Bullbasket]

If you're after a green then don't use SCC2. That's brown. It's most likely Khaki Green 3 as most Brit/Commonwealth armour in Tunisia were finished in that colour. Some were also finished in SCC2, but as I say, that's brown.

 

John.

[3DStewart]

57 minutes ago, Bullbasket said:

If you're after a green then don't use SCC2. That's brown. It's most likely Khaki Green 3 as most Brit/Commonwealth armour in Tunisia were finished in that colour. Some were also finished in SCC2, but as I say, that's brown.

 

John.

 

Thanks for your response. I misread the Starmer link above and failed to spot Khaki Green 3 or S.C.C.2.  Khaki Green 3 looks in keeping with the Italeri colour schemes, I just need to decide which manufacturer's version I like.

[Troy Smith]

5 minutes ago, 3DStewart said:

 

Thanks for your response. I misread the Starmer link above and failed to spot Khaki Green 3 or S.C.C.2.  Khaki Green 3 looks in keeping with the Italeri colour schemes, I just need to decide which manufacturer's version I like.

 

Given the confusion over British armour colours, and and my poor opinion of Italeri,  I'd suggest working the other way round,  for example, do you have a vehicle number for the Bishop?

A quick google 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_(artillery)

Quote

The rapid manoeuvre warfare practiced in the North African Campaign led to a requirement for a self-propelled artillery vehicle armed with the 25-pounder gun-howitzer. In June 1941 the development was entrusted to the Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Company. A prototype was ready for trials by August and 100 were ordered by November 1941.^[1] The result was a vehicle with the formal title: "Ordnance QF 25-pdr on Carrier Valentine 25-pdr Mk 1".

The vehicle was based on the Valentine II hull, with the turret replaced by a fixed boxy superstructure with large rear doors. It was nicknamed the "Bishop" for its high mitre-like superstructure. ^[2]

Into this superstructure the 25-pounder gun-howitzer was fitted. As a consequence of the gun mounting the resulting vehicle had very high silhouette, which is a disadvantage in desert warfare.^[1] The maximum elevation for the gun was limited to 15 degrees, reducing the range to 6,400 yards (5,900 m), about half that of the same gun on a wheeled carriage. The maximum depression was 5 degrees, traverse was 8 degrees, and the vehicle could also carry a Bren light machine gun. By July 194280 Bishops had been built; as the last 20 were being built an order for a further 50 was placed, with an option for a further 200 but the tender was abandoned in favour of the American M7 105 mm SP howitzer, named "Priest" in British service.^[1]

 

as these were built for the  desert, and from the dates of manufacture, I'd presume a lot were factory painted in a desert scheme.

 

 

 

 

a look at the box art the 'green' schemes are both 142nd Field Regiment,

which gets this ( and this, lots of useful photos BTW) which were in Sicily, not Tunisia it seems.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5640

Quote

When the 1st Canadian Infantry Division and the 1st Canadian Tank Brigade sailed from Scotland to Sicily, to take part in Operation Husky, they were accompanied by two British Artillery Units. One was the 93rd Bty of the 70th Medium Regiment RA, while the other was the 142nd (Royal Devon Yeomanry) Field Regiment (S.P.) RA. 

I found some pictures of the 25-pdr (SP) Bishop guns in Sicily belonging to the 142nd Regt on the IWM site, dated the 27 July, 1943. From the photos one can see that the guns were not repainted before they left the UK. The question is what colour are they, Khaki Green No. 7? 

 

 

Quote

1941- 42 – Standard Camouflage Colour Shades ( S.C.Cs.) from BS.987C came into use alongside and then supplanting, the greens, but in the same M.T.P. patterns.  The basic shade was Khaki Green 3 or S.C.C. 2  with S.C.C. 1A over it.  These browns were introduced as a result of a severe shortage of a vital chemical agent used to produce strong greens.

 

1942- 44 – M.T.P. 46/4A introduce new toned schemes aimed primarily against aerial observation, usually using the BS.987C browns as laid down in A.C.I. 1160 of May 1942.  The most common versions were variants of the ‘Foliage’ pattern and the ‘Mickey Mouse’ variant of the ‘Dapple’ pattern.  Vehicles continued to be delivered and used in plain S.C.C. 2 following A.C.I. 1160 which gave   S.C.C. 2 as “Basic Paint”.  In October 1943 A.C.I. 1496 authorised  S.C.C. 14 (black) as the main shade over  S.C.C. 2.  

 

I'd suggest that you PM Mike Starmer and ask him, as he's a member here, as it looks like a variety of possible colours, probably depending on when built.

 

HTH

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Colourcoats are readily available to any modeller willing to buy a dozen tins.  If your main source has been Humbrol and Revell there should be no difficulty in finding that many, but not  just for one Bishop, no.

 

Hi Graham, the minimum order is a half dozen, just for clarity

 

Thanks for the mention!

[3DStewart]

Guys, thanks for your help.

[Mike Starmer]

The Italieri schemes are inaccurate.  The 8th Amy colour is Light Stone No.61 which is not brown, tan or similar but a definite yellow shade.  In Tunisia these early production versions were Khaki Green 3 basic with SCC.1A upper surfaces in the MTP.46 Mickey Mouse type pattern.  Look closely at the famous picture in Tunisia with the crew kneeling on the rear deck and see the dark lobes rising up from the  trackguards near the RAC flash and around the superstructure edge.  Later versions in Sicily were SCC.2 brown without disruptive painting but they carried an ID roundel on the roof .  The dark splotch is an overpainted marking.  Bronze greens were NOt used as basic colour during WW2 on British vehicles.