Air Defense and Its Evaluation (Project Re-starts on Page 4)

[Cookenbacher]

Thanks for coming along everybody.

 

On 4/23/2017 at 3:05 AM, canberra kid said:

I'm on standby, ready to help if you need any!

Thanks John, that's music to my ears.

 

On 4/23/2017 at 7:24 AM, Fritag said:

A sewing machine needle is my favourite tool for scribing as it's so controllable and versatile.  I like the way you can start off with a pass or two using just very faint pressure, to establish the line and reduce the risk of dislodging the scribing guide, and only then then deepen the line using more pressure with either the sewing machine needle or one of the commercial scribers.

 

I usually have to rub down the line with a fine sanding stick to remove the slight raised burr either side of the scribed line - and I usually finish off by brushing along the line very lightly with liquid cement with leaves everything nice and crisp.

 

I also really like the RB 'Scribe-R Angled' angled scribers; one straight edge and one angled - useful for scribing flap/aileron hinge lines.

Thank you Steve, top tips. I have noticed that a light initial line with the INCIDO increases my chances of repeating that line from like 3% to around 70% which is what made this effort go from insurmountable to 'hey this may just work'. 

I'll look into the RB scribers - I like their 'swap-able' wheeled riveter.

I've been using the UMM scriber for curved surfaces, rolling it along the length of its 'blade', thus ensuring a very straight line.

 

4 hours ago, Gene K said:

What's your plan on the pods?

 

Now you've got me looking through old references, like in this thread. Great to have canberra kid "standing by".

My extremely thorough plan for the pods is to ask John (Canberra Kid) what he did for his EB-57's.  

Thanks for the link to that EB-57 thread, Gene, it's been added to a growing B-57 reference folder in my browser favorites.

[canberra kid]

Cookie @Cookenbacher I can't remember now what I used exactly, but it would have been an off the shelf drop tank, I have a strong feeling it could have been from the 1/72 Airfix Hunter.

 

John 

[Cookenbacher]

On 4/24/2017 at 0:43 PM, canberra kid said:

I can't remember now what I used exactly, but it would have been an off the shelf drop tank, I have a strong feeling it could have been from the 1/72 Airfix Hunter.

 

Thanks John. I rummaged through the stash and came up with a few options: tip tanks from a Sword F-80 or Ehmar F-94, and Revell Hunter drop tanks. I'll probably go with the P-80 or Hunter tanks as their absence will not prevent  those kits from being built in their planned configurations. The F-94 tanks are probably best, but I want to keep them available for their own kit.

 

And now a brief interlude regarding experiments and decisions about how to achieve the required natural metal finish on the B-57. As always, feel free to skip ahead if you don't have any interest in NMF's.

 

I've been experimenting for a couple years now, and my favorite method so far for achieving an NMF is to brush/buff Model Master metalizers directly onto the kit plastic.

 

Unfortunately, the surgery required on the B-57 will make this method impractical, and lots of filler and primer coats will likely be required (the MM lacquer eats through every primer I've tried with the brush/buff method), so a more 'conventional' approach will be needed.

With that in mind, I recently experimented with Alclad Aluminum and Airframe Aluminum - my first foray into 'high shine' Alclad having previously only used their Semi-matt Aluminum to represent High Speed Silver.

 

To begin the experiment/practice I sprayed a spare Academy P-51 fuselage with black Stynylrez followed by an acrylic gloss black.

 

Then sprayed the Alclad - forward and rear panels in Aluminum and middle panels in Airframe Aluminum. Here is the result compared to MM metalizer builds (embarrassing fingerprint strategically placed away from the camera).

 

 

I found that the Alclad lived up to its temperamental reputation, but I think it's possible to get a good result with my current airbrushing skill set. 

 

Just to see what would happen (Official Britmodeller [by way of @The Spadgent] motto: "Try stuff until it works"), I sprayed some onto the bare plastic on the other side.

 

Not bad at all, almost as nice as brushed metalizer. And here it is sprayed on a Testor's lid that the Alclad now resides in, as I broke its flimsy plastic cap.

 

 

 

I guess if I was able to prep plastic as well as Testors preps metal caps the results would be stunning, but probably too smooth.

 

 

Another option is Uschi pigments, which are incredibly shiny and also follow the required 'primer, gloss coat, metal coat' method.

 

[photo lost in Photobucket transfer]

 

Same build with the Uschi toned down.

 

The third option is AK Xtreme metal.

 

It's much more forgiving than Alclad, but I only have one shade (the lighter shade above is foil), and it's expensive. It's a lower risk, lower reward option. It's easy to use but doesn't look as nice as Alclad or Uschi in my opinion.

 

Well, there it is - I'll try not to drone on this much about 'metallics' in the future. Any suggestions, opinions or corrections are much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[canberra kid]

Cookie@Cookenbacher I'm sure the tanks will be fine, nice work with the NMF, I only use rattle cans so I can't add to the debate, but can you remind me again what time frame we are talking about, as it's a possibility the EB.57B you want to build could be in ADC Grey? 

 

John

[TheBaron]

Facing a future trial by fire in terms of metal finishes, I'm very grateful you posted the results of your experiments Cookie. Tbh I think all of those results look of yours look most pleasing from what I can see in the photos.

Tony

[RJ-WobblyHands]

Major surgery in the 1st post and a scribing tutorial thrown in for good measure on page one ( I am about to start Trench Warfare on my latest build soon)  - I will sit at the back and take notes, this does look a cracking project.

[Cookenbacher]

On 4/25/2017 at 0:56 PM, canberra kid said:

Cookie@Cookenbacher I'm sure the tanks will be fine, nice work with the NMF, I only use rattle cans so I can't add to the debate, but can you remind me again what time frame we are talking about, as it's a possibility the EB.57B you want to build could be in ADC Grey? 

Thanks John, I confirmed the NMF before starting the thread. What year did they begin to go over to ADC grey? I noticed that ANG B-57's were definitely grey.

 

On 4/25/2017 at 1:09 PM, TheBaron said:

Facing a future trial by fire in terms of metal finishes, I'm very grateful you posted the results of your experiments Cookie. Tbh I think all of those results look of yours look most pleasing from what I can see in the photos.

Ooooh, your C-119 metal finish is sure to impress Tony - although you may have been referring to the tiny 1/72 coffee mugs for the crew that you're sure to include at this rate.

 

On 4/25/2017 at 1:27 PM, RJ-WobblyHands said:

Major surgery in the 1st post and a scribing tutorial thrown in for good measure on page one ( I am about to start Trench Warfare on my latest build soon)  - I will sit at the back and take notes, this does look a cracking project.

Thanks Mr Wobbly Hands, I hope it turns out worthy of your attention!

[mirageiv]

Lovely work cookie, the wing mod is a great bit of modelling and the scribing looks like it is going well. This will be a great watch. Just a quick recommendation on the rescribing if you are looking for additional tools for the job. From personal experience I highly recommend this tape for it : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-471-Blue-Fine-Line-Vinyl-Masking-Tape-3mm-33m-Roll-/120992255799?hash=item1c2bb34f37:g:kL0AAOxySy9STHpo

 

Not sure if you can get it in the US direct or if there is a direct equivalent there but I find it fantastic. Very pliable around curves etc..but strong enough to keep a scriber going true. You can also cut it into thinner strips to guide very tight curves, much like cutting thin strips of masking tape for masking curved surfaces. Also doesn't loose it's tack so quick like I found other tapes do so you can get through quite a bit, last ages. I rescribed a 1/32 kit with it and only used a little. If you need to do long straight lines, anything over maybe 15cm though it is harder to align it perfectly straight, where your plastic rulers maybe better, but still doable! 

 

Look forward to more 

 

David

 

edit, I thought if I recommend something I should back it up with a picture to show it works (well at least imho!) Bar some of the small access panels or very tight curved corners on some panels that were done with templates, 99% was done over this multi curved surface with the blue tape and a needle in a vice which for me gives the finest most crisp lines, though you have to go thin with the paint etc..to make sure they will take a wash later on. I'll remove the pic if you want, don't want to hijack this great thread! It was still work in progress here but you get the idea.

 

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by mirageiv

[canberra kid]

Cookie @Cookenbacher, I can't find a definitive date for the ADC Grey but I suspect mid/late 70,s on to the end of the B.57's time in the USAF. I have dug out the seat mod date. TCTO 1B-57-928 introduced 28th January 1971 this was to introduce to the whole Canberra fleet the ESCAPAC 1C-6. Apart from the EB.57D's for some reason.

John  

[Gene K]

On 4/25/2017 at 1:56 PM, canberra kid said:

 I'm sure the [F-90, F-94] tanks will be fine ... .

 

Cookie,

 

Well ... if you want to "refine" those  tanks, this thread shows some ALE-2 pod measurements and details. 

 

And here is the profile and more detail.

 

 

Gene K

Edited April 29, 2017 by Gene K
Insert jpg

[canberra kid]

@Gene K do you know which TO. the illustration is from?

 

John 

Edited April 29, 2017 by canberra kid
translated to English

[Gene K]

1 hour ago, canberra kid said:

 ... do you know which TO. is this from?

 

No, sorry, John. A Google search on the image only returns this. See post #19 where the author surmises the page may come from F-100 or F-4 manuals. I could almost certainly rule out the F-4 since none of my old -34 Weapons Manuals mention the ALE-2.  I don't have any F-100 manuals ... but T-33, or B-57 Weapons Manuals would be better potential sources. 

 

Gene K

 

Note: LSP appears to be down at this time (Sat 29 Apr, 1800GMT)

[canberra kid]

1 minute ago, Gene K said:

 

No, sorry, John. A Google search on the image only returns this. See post #19 where the author surmises the page may come from F-100 or F-4 manuals. I could almost certainly rule out the F-4 since none of my old -34 Weapons Manuals mention the ALE-2.  I don't have any F-100 manuals ... but T-33, or B-57 Weapons Manuals would be better potential sources. 

 

Gene K

 

Note: LSP appears to be down at this time (Sat 29 Apr, 1800GMT)

Thanks Gene

It's not in the B.57  weapons TO. I will have a look at the F.100  stuff I have. 

John

 

[Cookenbacher]

On 4/29/2017 at 2:58 AM, mirageiv said:

Not sure if you can get it in the US direct or if there is a direct equivalent there but I find it fantastic. Very pliable around curves etc..but strong enough to keep a scriber going true. You can also cut it into thinner strips to guide very tight curves, much like cutting thin strips of masking tape for masking curved surfaces. Also doesn't loose it's tack so quick like I found other tapes do so you can get through quite a bit, last ages. I rescribed a 1/32 kit with it and only used a little.

Thanks David, I'll definitely try and hunt some down and give it a try. Feel free to post pics of any of your spectacular F-104's in any of my threads at any time.

 

On 4/29/2017 at 3:58 AM, canberra kid said:

Cookie @Cookenbacher, I can't find a definitive date for the ADC Grey but I suspect mid/late 70,s on to the end of the B.57's time in the USAF. I have dug out the seat mod date. TCTO 1B-57-928 introduced 28th January 1971 this was to introduce to the whole Canberra fleet the ESCAPAC 1C-6. Apart from the EB.57D's for some reason.

Wonderful info, thanks John. I had a talk with my friend, and when he arrived in 1971, they were in the middle of replacing the seats. He had many fascinating tales to tell, and I'll try to remember to relate some as we go along. I'm assuming that the universe wouldn't allow the kit seats to be ESCAPAC's, any suggestions for modifications or aftermarket?

 

On 4/29/2017 at 10:38 AM, Gene K said:

Well ... if you want to "refine" those  tanks, this thread shows some ALE-2 pod measurements and details. 

Thanks for the great info Gene, I'll see what I can do when it comes time for the pods. The ALE-2 looks noticeably smaller than the T-33 tip tanks. I think the thread you linked earlier may have had some dimensions.

[Gene K]

2 hours ago, Cookenbacher said:

The ALE-2 looks noticeably smaller than the T-33 tip tanks. I think the thread you linked earlier may have had some dimensions.

 

ALE-2 dimensions:

Lt - 13' 10.2"

Dia - 19.58"

 

Gene K

[canberra kid]

You're right Cookie the ones in the kit are the early ballistic Aircraft Mechanics Inc.seats  Aeroclub used to do a very nice 1C-6 ESCAPAC but this may be an easier option,  Pavla S72086 1/72 Resin Seats.

 

John

[Cookenbacher]

I love Britmodeller.

 

Thanks gentlemen, you are worthy of our scale's nickname.

[Giorgio N]

I'm always attracted to threads that start with major surgery on a kit, will keep watching this one !

You may also need some minor surgery on the Six, IIRC the Hasegawa kit needs some work in the radome area.

Can't add much to what has already been said about scribing, a sewing needle in a pin vice is still the best tool around for curved areas. My other favourite tool is a needle tip inserted in an automatic pencil, makes for a very light tool. I also use a Trumpeter scriber for flat areas, not spectacular but does the job.

As guides I employ the usual stuff, dymo tape, plasticard, and then a very handy material: clear plastic sheets that can be printed on. These were meant to be used with projectors for presentations, something made obsolete by Powerpoint and computers. I use them when I need to scribe certain shapes, draw the shape on my PC, print on the sheet, cut the template, clean the cut and it's ready to be used for several times.

[giemme]

49 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

As guides I employ the usual stuff, dymo tape, plasticard, and then a very handy material: clear plastic sheets that can be printed on. These were meant to be used with projectors for presentations, something made obsolete by Powerpoint and computers. I use them when I need to scribe certain shapes, draw the shape on my PC, print on the sheet, cut the template, clean the cut and it's ready to be used for several times.

I'll second that, as I followed Giorgio's advice for the AAR door scribing template on my F-4C build  - I think you remember that, Cookie, but I can post a link to the specific page if you want. A real bonus here is that you can refine the shape of such template using the standard sanding/filing materials you normally use for plastic.

 

Ciao

[Cookenbacher]

Sorry for the lack of updates everyone. I took a short break after completing a gaggle of Spitfires, and then went on a week's vacation in Colorado where I separated my shoulder mountain biking. So I'll be away from the bench for a few weeks more.

On the plus side, the ESCAPAC seats and 3M scribing tape have arrived.

[TheBaron]

Sorry to hear about that shoulder Cookie. No Gallic  shrugging for you!

 

I do hope it's not too painful and heals soon.

 

Take care,

Tony

[Beard]

30 minutes ago, Cookenbacher said:

I separated my shoulder mountain biking. 

 

Nasty, I hope you're over the worst of the pain and hope you recover well.

[qn30jEkPz7]

Ouch! Bad luck on the shoulder. I did that a while back (less glamourous than on an mtb - I just slipped on a wet floor)

[giemme]

Cookie, I'm very sorry to hear about your shoulder! I hope you recover soon and well.

 

Ciao

[canberra kid]

That will explain it, I was worried you'd given up on her, I hope the shoulder mends soon and your back in the saddle!

 

John