Phone Phixer Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Albert RN said: You were wrong about the wingtip so maybe you're wrong about the seat straps too. Look forward to seeing your 1/24 conversion where you get them right. 4 hours ago, Radleigh said: You must have moved around a lot to work on all the Harriers to have seen this. In 8 years of being in the RAF, 3 years of them working on Gr.7/9's, I worked on 28 and only saw the ones at Cottesmore and Wittering, and even then some escaped me. God knows how you checked their straps, wingtips etc and made note. Did you do any work?? 4 hours ago, Shane said: Actually, you were schooled on the wingtips. If you intend to go all absolutist on anything, you want to actually be right, or we might just suspect that the other bits are wrong as well. Shane Hmmm, time for armourers to stick together. Selwyn is 100% correct about the seat straps. The change from short straps with Koch fasteners & torso harness to the all in one "simplified combined harness" happened in 1980/81. It was a change across the Harrier, Jaguar, Buccaneer & Phantom fleets, no small modification! The mod was not done gradually as jets went through servicing it was done en mass for a whole station/squadron. A whole squadrons jets were done over a weekend to avoid the squippers having to mix and match the required equipment. Very little reference to it can be found online, the only bit is this about the change over on Buccaneers & Phantoms. http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-216063.html It does trip up some fine work. Neomega fall foul of it on their seats. A mod program of that size does not require you to go around noting particular aircraft! When its your trade involved on the squadron you work on, "you know". Therefore when 20 Sqn changed to the Jaguar in 1977 & the harness change was in 1980/81, even we armourers can do that math!! Rob. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Radleigh said: You must have moved around a lot to work on all the Harriers to have seen this. In 8 years of being in the RAF, 3 years of them working on Gr.7/9's, I worked on 28 and only saw the ones at Cottesmore and Wittering, and even then some escaped me. God knows how you checked their straps, wingtips etc and made note. Did you do any work?? 1979 - Jan 1981, Armourer on 233 OCU and detached to 1(F)Sqn when their armourers had a flu crisis, which covers just about most GR3/T2/4 at Wittering. Also did some station flight coverage at Wittering as it was next to the OCU, so had occasional visiting 3/4 Sqn jets, (and memorably a Danish F100 which landed with a dodgy engine!) 1981- Dec 82 Armourer 4(AC) sqn, Gutersloh so covered all the sqn jets and the occasional 3 Sqn aircraft. (the 3 sqn jets are the hole in my knowledge.) 4(AC) Squadron armourers did the long strap conversion on the line (basically a seat safety equipment change) over the period of about a week in mid 81. Please note this change did not include the buckle stowages on the headbox as these were introduced I understand as a safety measure around 1983 (after I left Harrier force, but I was based at Wittering on a different unit at the time) after a few accidents with the long strap buckles getting caught up in the seat mechanism when the seat was motored up and down breaking things, and in one case on 4(AC) when I was there causing the blowing of the canopy MDC. Selwyn Edited April 25, 2017 by Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Albert RN said: You were wrong about the wingtip so maybe you're wrong about the seat straps too. Look forward to seeing your 1/24 conversion where you get them right. As I clearly said in my time on Harriers (1979-82) I did not see the wingtips, my statement is correct. You have alluded that this fit being based on one single image pre 77, which incidentally does not mean it was in any way common. I did regular Harrier detatchments to Deccimommanu and to Maple Flag in canada where the aircraft were routinely fitted with the 330 gall fuel tanks (which as a team of armourers i was involved in fitting)for the trip (100gal's on outboards of course ) and the "long Wingtips" were very conspicuous in their absence! For your information If you go to http://www.martin-baker.com/about/history-and-developments and download the MK1-MK10 HISTORY BROCHURE and go down to page 38 you can see the short strap arrangement, its on a 9B jaguar seat but the straps are the same as was fitted to the Harrier GR3 and T birds. (Brochure is a good read by the way!) Selwyn Edited April 25, 2017 by Selwyn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert RN Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Selwyn said: As You have alluded that this fit being based on one single image pre 77, which incidentally does not mean it was in any way common. No one said it was common, though you said "The extended tips were never used". Photo proves they were and Spencer's model was correct for at least one moment time. Put the shovel down, you'll be digging to Australia at this rate. Edited April 25, 2017 by Albert RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Just now, Albert RN said: No One said it was common, though you said "The extended tips were never used" Photo proves they were and Spencer's model was correct for at least one moment time. Put the shovel down, you'll be digging to Australia at this rate. In my time they never were and all the old hands on the squadrons I was on never even knew they existed! Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radleigh Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 On 18/04/2017 at 8:33 PM, Selwyn said: Jets that went to Belize normally went out in the back of a hercules IIRC. The extended tips were never used, in fact in all my time working on GR3 T2/4 I never ever heard anyone mention them,and never personally saw one, let alone one fitted! I suspect there was only ever one set used for the air race, Obviously not a successful modification! Saw Spencer Pollards build in the latest Model aircraft international, this week, shook my head at that one, a Lovely 20 Sqn Harrier T bird model marred for me a bit by iffy research. He had fitted the mythical extended tips, and the long EJ seat straps that were not fitted to Harrier till four years after 20 sqn re-equipped with Jaguar! Selwyn 29 minutes ago, Selwyn said: As I clearly said in my time on Harriers (1979-82) I did not see the wingtips, my statement is correct. You have alluded that this fit being based on one single image pre 77, which incidentally does not mean it was in any way common. I did regular Harrier detatchments to Deccimommanu and to Maple Flag in canada where the aircraft were routinely fitted with the 330 gall fuel tanks (which as a team of armourers i was involved in fitting)for the trip (100gal's on outboards of course ) and the "long Wingtips" were very conspicuous in their absence! For your information If you go to http://www.martin-baker.com/about/history-and-developments and download the MK1-MK10 HISTORY BROCHURE and go down to page 38 you can see the short strap arrangement, its on a 9B jaguar seat but the straps are the same as was fitted to the Harrier GR3 and T birds. (Brochure is a good read by the way!) Selwyn Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but I read that as they were never used, ever. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert RN Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Selwyn said: In my time they never were and all the old hands on the squadrons I was on never even knew they existed! Selwyn And? Its a good job we don't rely on memories for facts and some people actually took photos otherwise we'd be awash with "iffy research" based on dodgy reminiences. Edited April 25, 2017 by Albert RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 34 minutes ago, Radleigh said: Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, but I read that as they were never used, ever. In my time they wern't! Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert RN Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Selwyn said: In my time they wern't! Selwyn Spencer's Harrier depicts that aircraft around 1974/75 and you joined the RAF in what year? Edited April 25, 2017 by Albert RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 Peace please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Albert RN said: Spencer's Harrier depicts that aircraft around 1974/75 and you joint the RAF in what year? 2 hours ago, Albert RN said: Spencer's Harrier depicts that aircraft around 1974/75 and you joint the RAF in what year? 1979! Selwyn Edited April 25, 2017 by Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert RN Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Selwyn said: 1979! Selwyn Enough said. Not so much Spencer's iffy research as your unfamiliarity of something before your time. Barba tenus sapients. Edited April 25, 2017 by Albert RN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 stever219, I am coming late to this discussion; why do you consider the Airfix SHARs(FRS. 1, & F/A.), and the Xtrakit to not be so good? I do have the Xtrakit F/A. 2; it is okay; but, could be better as far as detail is concerned. You are not off in your comments here. What are your criticisms about the two Airfix kits? I am interested to read them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 2 hours ago, JPuente54 said: stever219, I am coming late to this discussion; why do you consider the Airfix SHARs(FRS. 1, & F/A.), and the Xtrakit to not be so good? I do have the Xtrakit F/A. 2; it is okay; but, could be better as far as detail is concerned. You are not off in your comments here. What are your criticisms about the two Airfix kits? I am interested to read them. The rear fuselage is too thin in side view, the canopy is wrong, the FA2 nose is wrong, the tanks are the wrong shape, the missile launchers are wrong (both represent the same launcher, but are different lengths!) Much of the detail is wrong. The only decent parts are the decal sheets. They really are a missed opportunity, the chance to do the definitive Sea Harriers, but instead they typify the shoddy, laise faire attitude to 1/72 exhibited by Airfix development at that time. The sad part is many of these were pointed out to them before release, but that attitude was pretty much 'It doesn't matter". Thankfully, there is a new team in place now and we get much better kits,. The Xtrakit/SH one is better, but lacks detail in several places (e.g. Wing vortex generators) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Albert RN said: Enough said. Not so much Spencer's iffy research as your unfamiliarity of something before your time. Barba tenus sapients. Ahh so it finally comes down to a personal insult. Actually i'm a lot wiser than you think . If you are going to insult me at least do it in English not Latin. I don't have a beard by the way! I have the good grace to disagree with you I wouldn't stoop so low as to insult somebody on this forum, most members here are far above that. Selwyn Edited April 25, 2017 by Selwyn 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radleigh Posted April 25, 2017 Share Posted April 25, 2017 10 hours ago, Selwyn said: In my time they wern't! Selwyn Spencer's Harrier was before your time, as said then. A lot can change in 4 years. *lots* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 Dave, Thanks for the info on the Airfix SHARs; I wasn't aware of them(yes, I have them in my stash). You write that the canopy is wrong; is it for both marks, or, just one of them? And, which one is it, the Mk. 1, or, the Mk. 2? I checked the launchers and, noted the difference between the single and the doubles; which is the correct length(or close to it)? I do have the Pavla nose for the FA. 2. Thanks again for the information. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 The canopy error is common to both kits. In my opinion it makes both kits irredeemable. As Dave says, the only good bit is the transfer sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selwyn Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 10 hours ago, Radleigh said: Spencer's Harrier was before your time, as said then. A lot can change in 4 years. *lots* Yes and I conceded that point on Monday. look at my post. Selwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert RN Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 18 hours ago, Selwyn said: Ahh so it finally comes down to a personal insult. Actually i'm a lot wiser than you think . If you are going to insult me at least do it in English not Latin. I don't have a beard by the way! I have the good grace to disagree with you I wouldn't stoop so low as to insult somebody on this forum, most members here are far above that. Selwyn I didn't even insult you in Latin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Seahawk, after I made my post; I checked both my kits and found that they share the same clear parts sprue.; so, thanks for the comments. What about the launchers? Which is the correct ones? The doubles, or the single missile launchers; or, are they both incorrect? TIA Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 1 hour ago, JPuente54 said: Seahawk, after I made my post; I checked both my kits and found that they share the same clear parts sprue.; so, thanks for the comments. What about the launchers? Which is the correct ones? The doubles, or the single missile launchers; or, are they both incorrect? TIA Joe If you mean the Sidewinder rails - the twin rails were a post-Falklands fit and could be carried on both the FRS.1 and F/A.2. Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPuente54 Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Andre, thanks for the comment. Looking at my post again, I realize that my question was not clear/specific enough. Which missile rails are the correct length, the singles, or, the doubles(as Dave Fleming noted; they are different lengths; but, the same missile rail)? TIA Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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