Stores Ref. 33B/157: is this Medium Sea Grey?

[lasermonkey]

Having spotted that Kits World had released a couple of sets of MSG squadron codes, one of which was 28", I became rather animated. Despite the official requirements for squadron code sizes, it's obvious from studying photographs that these were not always adhered to, and being something of a Battle Of Britain buff, there was a need for some 27"/28" codes (plus 32"/33", but that's another story).

Imagine my confusion when confronted with this:

 

That's not Medium Sea Grey! I was sure that squadron codes were Medium Sea Grey in this time frame? Certainly, that's what my references tell me.

It has long been a bugbear of mine that many decal manufacturers get MSG so wrong, and and at first appearance, this seems to be yet another. However, I noticed that the decal title states that it's Stores Ref 33B/157 Grey and I have to confess, this is the first time I have encountered this term.

Is it known what grey this is? Did it become Medium Sea Grey or was it another colour entirely? If so, which is the correct colour for 1939-40 squadron codes? So many questions!

 

Cheers,

a very confused Mark.

[Giorgio N]

The Stores Ref. you mention is the one included in the original AMO A154/39 that introduced grey codes for RAF aircrafts. In the AMO this colour is simply called Grey. However this colour had origin earlier in 1936 specifically for markings and was called Sea Grey Medium. Later documents use the same Ref. number for MSG.

Regarding the way Medium Sea Grey looks like, I always find it very difficult to understand how dark or light it is as the perception is easily altered by whatever other colour is around. When close to lighter colours (think air defence Phantoms for example), can look dark, when beside darker colours it looks much lighter to my eyes.

Now I can't vouch for the accuracy of my monitor, but the grey in those letters doesn't look too far from MSG to me

[Nick Millman]

33B/157 was a half gallon container of Medium Sea Grey paint to Synthetic DTD 314 or 517 spec. The point to bear in mind when 33B numbers get banded about is that they represent containers rather than colours per se, which were always identified by their description. 

 

In September 1942 there was no 33B/157 for Medium Sea Grey listed as a camouflage finish (Section III) but only 491, 492 and 496 which were 1, 5 (Home) and 5 (Overseas) gallon containers of Medium Sea Grey to DTD 83A (Cellulose). 33B/157 was then listed as an Identification colour under Section IV. There were also grey and light grey primers with different stores numbers. 

 

Medium Sea Grey codes were introduced by Air Ministry order in October 1936 which refers to RAE testing of markings for identification purposes on camouflaged aircraft and states that the grey will be standardised and called Sea Grey, Medium to be bought in to spec DTD 314.

 

Often the actual colour of decals is not apparent until they are applied to a model. 

 

Nick

[tempestfan]

11 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

Regarding the way Medium Sea Grey looks like, I always find it very difficult to understand how dark or light it is as the perception is easily altered by whatever other colour is around. When close to lighter colours (think air defence Phantoms for example), can look dark, when beside darker colours it looks much lighter to my eyes.

 

It tends to look very dark in some colour pics of Spit Vs, but that may be the reproduction.

[lasermonkey]

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. My experience with paler representations of Medium Sea Grey decals is that they look even lighter on the model, so I'll give these decals a miss.

 I'm at a loss as to why many decal manufacturers get MSG so wrong. The colour is still in BS 381C, so not difficult to get reasonably close to. So very frustrating.

 Cheers,

Mark.

[malpaso]

13 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

I'm at a loss as to why many decal manufacturers get MSG so wrong. 

Maybe their main colour research is watching "Battle of Britain" (again) where the codes were white for visibility / artistic reasons?

 

On the other hand I have one kit where the codes are almost Ocean Grey - to go on a DFS Spitfire late Vb.  But that's a flying model rather than plastic.

Cheers 

Will

[lasermonkey]

I decided to email Kitsworld yesterday, as I wanted to understand their reasoning behind the apparent pale grey of the decals. I received a reply quite quickly, which I will post here as I think it may be worth discussing:

 

 

Hi Mark,
Thank you for your email.
We have been doing some research into the colour of code letters on RAF
aircraft from 1938 until 1941.  I have found that contrary to popular
belief Medium Sea Grey was not commonly used during that period.  The
specified colour was stores 33B/157 Grey.  This is not Medium Sea Grey
but somewhat lighter.  It appears on many photographs of Spitfires,
Hurricanes and others in 1939-1940.  Medium Sea Grey seems to have been
more common on day fighters from early 1940 on until a change to Sky.
The colour specified for nightfighters and night bombers was Sky Grey
and for their serials too.  Photographs of 1940-41 Wellingtons,
Hampdens, Whitelys , Blenheim, Defiant, Hurricanes and Manchester all
display very pale code letters and serials which are only just darker
than the white in roundels.  This has in the past been misinterpreted as
both Medium Sea Grey since this is common belief or white due to the
very pale appearance.  White was only rarely used as a serial colour and
usually in overseas service.  In light of the above is it possible  that
you could manufacture Sky Grey code letters and serials please and do
modellers a great service.  You can check our comments if you consult the
Ducimus series of 'Camouflage and Markings' books of the 1970s where
there are numerous photographs.  There are many other published sources
for photographs too which I am sure that you know of.

Regards,
Kitsworld

 

 

 

I can't help but think they've got the wrong end of the stick here!

Thoughts, gentlemen?

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

 

[Nick Millman]

Sounds like another "It appears as though . . . " example of revisionism. 33B/157 designates a container size of Medium Sea Grey not a colour! It is possible some documents refer simply to 'Grey' in shorthand, especially if describing code letters. 

 

The 14 September 1942 finishing instruction from the Technical Officer of Fighter Command appends Air Diagram No. 2390, a complete vocabulary of stores numbers for aircraft dopes and finishes, listing 33B/157 as Medium Sea Grey exactly as described above. Whether the appearance of Medium Sea Grey remained consistent in applied paints is another matter!

 

Nick