So why the lack of Harvards?

[Truro Model Builder]

Occasionally an aircraft type comes along that was so widely used that it is easier to compile a list of the countries that didn't use it. Combined with the lengthy period of time in which it was in service and the simple fact that nearly a whole generation of military pilots would have flown it at some point in their careers, to say nothing of its ubiquity as a warbird and an airshow performer, and you really begin to wonder just why so few kits have been produced of the North American T-6/SNJ Texan/Harvard. I was thinking about this when inspecting the new RS Models Yale, which is rather nice, and wondering why they went for that rather than a Harvard -not that we haven't needed a Yale, but I would think a Harvard is a better bet for a decent return. That led me on to thinking about the T-6 and the paucity of plastic with regard to the type. The miserly record is Valom in 1/144, Airfix, Heller, Academy, Hobby Boss and (I think) Frog in 1/72, of which only the Hobby Boss kit is currently available, and Monogram and Occidental (reboxed by Italeri) in 1/48. If anyone knows of any others feel free to add them to this rather pitiful list.

 

What gives? There is no shortage of available material to reference or real ones to measure, and you could spend a lifetime building Harvards in 1/72 and still only make a dent in the variety of colour schemes and markings the type has worn. I really do not see how any model company would not do very well out of a decent 1/72 and/or 1/48 moulding. Airfix? Revell? Eduard, even? Anyone?

 

[Nick Millman]

I don't believe that Frog ever produced a Harvard. The Heller was re-boxed by Revell several times with some rare overseas versions. There was an older Hawk T-6 that appeared in various guises and is actually quite nice although it has engraved decal guides. Doyusha re-released the Hobby Boss in Japan in Japanese guise. 

 

Nick

[Graham Boak]

I agree completely, but at the core of the matter is that the Harvard/Texan is a trainer, and doesn't kill people.  At least not deliberately.  Therefore it does not appeal generally to the market, which does like its combat types much, much, more.  Such T-6 kits as have appeared generally offer a combat option - the Heller kit had this as prime, the Monogram was at least visibly armed. 

 

If you exclude the postwar T-6G then the choice is even more restricted.  However you have missed a couple of older kits: Hawk (later Testors) in 1/72 (which is the one Nick is thinking of), and Lindberg (I think) in 1/48th.  I believe that there is also a resin 1/144 example.  There was no Frog, nor Matchbox, nor (original tooling) Revell.  The Heller kit has reappeared as Revell and under a number of other labels.   However you do mention the Yale, a member of the same NA.16 family.  So therefore you should add the Azur NA.57 in various boxings and the Wirraway from High Planes and (three times, two scales) MPM/Special Hobby.  There is also a resin of the Japanese rework, the K10W Oak.

 

Now that we have the Yale, the major omission is a long canopy T-6 variant in 1/72.  A Harvard Mk.I would be nice but is a fairly simple conversion of a Wirraway - given a long canopy!  There are still a large numbe of pre-T-6 variants that can be modelled, but I don't see them as massively popular subjects.

[Giorgio N]

Guess that the whole family has suffered from being trainers and this cathegory is generally not really well represented in plastic form. Just look at the T-33, a type that was built in thousands and used by dozens of air forces and yet has seen very few kits (of which only recently we've seen good ones).

The T-6 has seen an even more impressive service both during WW2 and in postwar years and it's soldiered on until the '80s in many air forces... but it's a trainer, trainers don't seem to sell too well (with the only exception of those used by aerobatic teams) compared to other types and we enthusiasts have to deal with either older kits or short runs.

 

To add to your list, Hawk did a T-6 that was later reboxed by Testors and may well be still easily available. The same kit was also sold as an SNJ (Nick and Graham already mentioned this while I was typing)

Aurora also covered the type in 1/48 scale sometime in the '50s

Last but not least, Kitty Hawk issued a 1/32 kits only a few years ago that seems to be pretty good

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Revell did re-box Heller kit twice. First time, about a quarter of a century ago, as Harvard Mk.IIB (one RAF and one Belgian ground attack machine from Belgian Kongo) and the second time about a decade ago (T-6G Mosquito from Korean war, a pair of Austrian LT-6G and another pair of German Harvard Mk.IV). Heller kit looks decent, but hardly up to date. I never attempted to build one, though. Cheers

Jure

[Work In Progress]

The Heller kit is still well worth building in 1/72. There is also perfectly decent and fairly recent Hobby Boss* 1/72 T6-G kit for those who demand recessed panel lines. Word is that it needs a bit of dihedral added to the outer wing panels but that's not a big job.

 

In 1/48 I've never felt any need to look beyond the abundantly-available Monogram kit which, like most Monogram kits, pops up often enough at low prices to be worth having a modest stock of against the day when you need them. You sometimes find it in a Revell double kit racer boxing, with the 1/48 Revell P-51D Mustang, for next to nothing. I think the last one of those I acquired was less than £5 with a bit of haggling.

 

*yes, this was mentioned in the original post and I overlooked it

Edited April 6, 2017 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

The Heller kit is lovely.  In which way is it "out of date"?  Because it isn't covered in trenches?  Because it doesn't come with miniscule etched brass parts that are just thrown away as being unusable by normal humans?  For otherwise I just don't understand Jure's comment - let alone agree.  Not every kit from decades ago should be written off just because it comes from decades ago.

 

The main reason for going to Occidental in 1/48 rather than Monogram is that it allows you to build Harvards not just Texans.  Many Harvards were Texans, but by no means all.  Long canopies again.

 

 

[Work In Progress]

True, but against that the Occidental windscreen always looks wrong to me. Too raked. If I'm going to end up crash-moulding one or the other component that erodes any advantage.

[Work In Progress]

By coincidence, rumours emerge of a new 1/72 Harvard, maker unknown (but not CMK)

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

Agreed, Graham, the Heller kit looks very nice. Lack of PE parts or engraved panel lines does not bother me personally. After all, there is plenty of AM stuff available and one can always engrave the kit, if needed. These days, however, many modellers are accustomed to nice crisp panel lines like on Academy T-6 and this has been the point of my previous post.

Work in Progress, just like you I am quite pleased with Monogram kit in 1/48. Build one re-boxed by Revell OOB some time ago and it took me only two or three days. Cheers

Jure

Edited April 6, 2017 by Jure Miljevic
edited for spelling

[stevehnz]

I've been looking around of late for Harvard kits & can confirm there is certainly a dearth of them out there, I already have an original Airfix, Academy & have been able to pick up a Heller one ex ebay which I will use to build an armed Belgian T-6-4AK from the Congo in 1960. The news that RS Models may do one occasions me no grief, there're still more I'd like to be able to plan for.

Steve.

[Biggu]

https://www.squadron.com/1-72-Encore-T-6-Texan-Harvard-EC72105-p/ec72105.htm?utm_source=bm23&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Map2&utm_content=Sorry...Our+Mistake+-+Price+Now+Fixed+on+Encore+T-6+Texan&utm_campaign=New+Products+April+2017

 

Here is a new one... a bit on the pricey side, but still....a Harvard....

 

Jeff

[Graham Boak]

It's the Academy tooling.  Encore specialise in re-treading other peoples' kits, with added (and usually rather nice) transfers.  They've already done the Heller one.

 

PS note that not all the variants shown are T-6Gs - possibly not all Texan canopies, although they are all shown with them.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Graham Boak

[Graham Boak]

Going back to the key complaint of the theme, there's not a lot of Beech 18s either.  Or Piper Cubs.  Or even Dakotas...although the smaller-scale ones do pull the total up a bit there.  1x48, 4x72, 1x100, 3x144, 2x200.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Graham Boak

[Biggu]

Yes,  Encore does that exactly, some of which with the added extras are fairly good, but to confess I am more of a Mosquito/Spitfire guy  LOL

[fightersweep]

4 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

By coincidence, rumours emerge of a new 1/72 Harvard, maker unknown (but not CMK)

 

 

I very much like the sound of that! I could use a few Harvard IIs in the collection! I'm not, by any stretch of the imagination, an expert on Harvards, but how many previous kits have enabled a true Harvard II to be built? I'm guessing Airfix for starters.

 

There needs to be more trainer kits out there though, although in fairness, there are quite a few already in 1/72. Still want a Fiat G.46, because I can't find the Sign resin kit anywhere! Come on Italeri, you know you want to!

 

Best regards;
Steve

[Graham Boak]

None in 1/72.  The Airfix was a Texan with a long exhaust - making it a Mk.IIA (and I'm not sure that they had the long exhaust).  The true Mk.II had the long canopy, and the Mk.IIB too.

 

Falcon did a long canopy, which was available in a US Aircraft set alongside a Texan canopy.  Only one per set however, which made them expensive.  Various people have offered these canopies in the past. most of them just Texan canopies with bodged extra framing.  You could nick one from an Azur NA.57, but it will have yellowed before it reaches your Harvard.  Not a problem with Falcon.

[fightersweep]

Thanks Graham! That's good to know. So fingers crossed for the new "rumoured" Harvard II kit then?

 

Best regards;
Steve

[tempestfan]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Going back to the key complaint of the theme, there's not a lot of Beech 18s either.  Or Piper Cubs.  Or even Dakotas...although the smaller-scale ones do pull the total up a bit there.  1x48, 4x72, 1x100, 3x144, 2x200.

Beech 18: Aurora/Comet, Pioneer/PM, Hobbycraft, Battle Axe (I think. ..), the recent ICM...

C-47: Monogram and Trumpeter in 48th,  Monogram 1/87 (?), Lincoln /Kader - ok, the latter two are old...

Not sure if Encore boxed the Heller T-6, as Heller sold that mould to Lodela (Mexico ), while the ex-Heller kits I'm aware of done by Encore a good 25 years ago came from Argentina  (then Crovetto, but  still available today , now manufactured by an apparently fairly large toy company. ).

Edited April 6, 2017 by tempestfan

[Graham Boak]

I'll check, but I'm pretty sure that I have at least the transfers for Encore's boxing of the Heller kit, if not the kit itself.

[FalkeEins]

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I agree completely, but at the core of the matter is that the Harvard/Texan is a trainer, and doesn't kill people.  At least not deliberately.  

 

Armée de l'Air service in the Algerian war. Toting four wing mounted machine guns, two bombs and six rockets, gradually replaced by T-28s and Skyraiders. In 1962 the Portuguese Air Force obtained large numbers of fully armed, ex-Armée de l'Air aircraft. They received some Federal German Luftwaffe T-6 Gs as well and armed them with four 7.92-mm machine guns in under wing pods and 37-mm MATRA SNEB rocket packs for COIN work in Mozambique..

[Graham Boak]

The point has already been made, and there are other examples too.  Sub-hunters in Mexico and Brazil.  FAC aircraft in Kenya and Korea.   No doubt this is why Heller chose one of these examples for their box-art.  But some Spitfires were trainers...  Types which served predominantly in a combat role sell more than those that were not, and that is why there are fewer kits available.  Despite numbers and variety being all for the T-6 and DC-3 variants of this world.  Do you actually disagree?

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, FalkeEins

Add to the list also both Israeli and Syrian Texans/Harvards, used as ground attack aircraft/dive bombers, Spanish COIN Texans in Morocco/Western Sahara, improvised USMC dive bombing Texans on (I think) New Caledonia in 1942 and RAF Texans, used against Mau-Mau during Kenya Emergency. I already mentioned T-6s in Korea, Harvards Mk.IIB in Belgian Kongo and Steve mentioned Katanga Texans. The complete list is probably much longer, but that is what I remember right now. Cheers

Jure

[Max Headroom]

Kittyhawk do a T-6 in 1/32.

 

I hope/expect/demand that Airfix will do the Right Thing when replacing their golden oldie in 1/72. It's not as if there is a shortage of schemes - many European air arms had ex RAF or Canadian examples

post war.

 

http://darrenwillmin.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Duxford_27-05-2012_0253.jpg

 

That's a bit nice isn't it?!

 

It should be relatively easy to mould a Proper Harvard in such a way that the 'other' version could be released later in those markets where it would be popular.

 

If there's a demand.........

 

Trevor

[Hhhalifaxxx]

Yet there are a number of aftermarket decal sheets in 1/72 for the T-6 -- Aztec, Carpena, Tigerhead, etc. The more readily available brands (Academy, HobbyBoss, Revell/Heller) are all postwar Gs, I'd rather see more Ds. Indeed, the Heller T-6G is excellent but lacks u/c covers. HobbyBoss's cockpit lacks the prominent roll bar and the canopy's rear shape is suspicious.