So why the lack of Harvards?

[Work In Progress]

At the time of course going straight from a Tiger Moth to a Spitfire would have been a solo exercise as there weren't any two-seat Spitfires, with a pilot who had never used flaps, a retractable undercarriage or a variable pitch prop. I think the chances of that working without a broken aeroplane would have been minimal.

 

The Harvard may have been a fairly unspectacular performer but was very good for getting people whose only experience was simple fixed-pitch fixed gear flapless open-canopy biplanes accustomed to operating the systems employed by more complex types.

[Ed Russell]

It's common to read in WW2 pilot biographies the awe they were in of the powerful, complicated, advanced Harvard compared to the Tiger Moth or similar they had done their initial training in. It's a recurring theme.

[Work In Progress]

It sure is complicated compared to a Moth, also ENORMOUS

[ivand]

On 06/04/2017 at 0:06 PM, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello

Revell did re-box Heller kit twice. First time, about a quarter of a century ago, as Harvard Mk.IIB (one RAF and one Belgian ground attack machine from Belgian Kongo)

 

Not exactly. The camouflaged (WWII era dark earth, dark green and trainer yellow) planes (as in the Revell kit) were on loan from the Dutch air force (KLu) around 1947/48 and were returned when enough Belgian planes were operational. All 'proper' Belgian T-6, including the ones that were flown in the Congo (after the important airbase in Kamina became operational, training was transferred from Belgium to the Congo, including the T-6 and Fouga Magisters - only a couple of the latter at the time of independence, but hundreds of T-6 from various sources including Rhodesia) were in aluminium with yellow bands on wings and fuselage and red wing tips (including the few armed examples of the "flight appui-feu").

Edited April 20, 2017 by ivand

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Ivand

Thank you for these information. When I saw an armed trainer box art, I had immediately jumped into conclusion about a combat use in Kongo. Cheers

Jure

[ivand]

16 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Hello, Ivand

Thank you for these information. When I saw an armed trainer box art, I had immediately jumped into conclusion about a combat use in Kongo. Cheers

Jure

 

Yes, that's quite comprehensible. The armament shown in the box art is a result of artistic licence, I suppose, as those trainers never flew with that kind of armament in Belgium. It was probably motivated by the fact that the Heller sprues contain armament options. The Belgian Harvards were operated from Brustem airfield which had been used by German nightfighters during the war. The bad condition of the runways was the cause why a lot of the Belgian Harvards were out of use and had to be supplemented by Dutch examples. For the sake of completeness, I can also point out that the Belgian roundels provided by Revell in this boxing, are incorrect. There should in fact not be any blue outline to them.

[Mike Starmer]

One this subject I recently converted an Academy T-6 into a very close resemblance of a Yale, thus proving the first rule of modellers.  Not too difficult and an interesting exercise nevertheless.  Now working on a USN SNJ-3 from another Academy kit.  In turn I considered several earlier versions and looking at photographs discovered that many wartime AT-6 and SNJ versions had a starboard side cowling bulge for a 30. cal mg, not often fitted.  This feature is missing from most drawings.  Squadron Signal book  shows all the version with the trailing edge forward rake so these are not reliable.  The Azure kit NA-57 is not 1/72 but 1/69th in parts and the canopy is one whole side frame too long.  I hacked one of these into a 1938 period BC-1 but now think a converted Academy or Heller with fuselage stringer effect would have been a better choice.  So I look forward to one of the wartime AT-6 models in hope.  

[Pauly Boy]

 Not an authority on the T-6 at all but it is one of my favourite aircraft! I find the use of it as a combat aircraft in Biafra, Congo, Portuguese Africa to name a few, of great interest. Have the Academy 1/72 boxng, looks quite nice but am stalling as to what conflict to build it as.

 Great insite as to the various makes, versions and builds on this thread. Thanks to everyone!

 

   Paul

[Graham Boak]

21 hours ago, Mike Starmer said:

One this subject I recently converted an Academy T-6 into a very close resemblance of a Yale, thus proving the first rule of modellers.  Not too difficult and an interesting exercise nevertheless.  

 

Not too difficult perhaps, but nonetheless very impressive as it needs new engine (everything forward of the centre-fuselage), new inner and outer wings, new undercarriage and a new canopy.  It would have been much easier to put a T-6 rear end into an NA.57, which is precisely what North American did.  They also changed the engine, but not the external size.  However it isn't true to say that the NA.57 canopy has one too many frames - it is the correct length for the NA.57 and Yale (NA.64).  Like all earlier unarmed variants of the design - and all Canadian production of the Harvard - it has a longer rear section with an extra frame.  The main problem with the NA.57 is that it has yellowed with age.  A replacement is made by Falcon, in one of their sets, but I don't think that Squadron has included it in its individual sets.

 

However, now RS has released their NA.64/Yale, that's one conversion less awaiting me, plus a good selection of optional transfers.  It has also released one more NA.57 to do - Aeronavale? Vichy? Luftwaffe?  Maybe I can re-constitute the Harvard I'd already chopped up in anticipation?  There's always a great number of options for the NA.16 family.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Ivand

Possibly more a case of detailed and strict instructions from Heller company than an artistic license, I would say. In this case the artist was Jaroslav Velc who provided plenty of box arts and illustrations for aviation books and magazines. I imagine one of his friends from KP, OEZ or other modelling manufacturers would probably warned him about inaccuracies on the Harvard painting/graphic/box art if he would not know this already.

I wonder why nobody bothered to patch up runways on Brustem airfield? Or why pilots had not resorted to use of grass runways, which is well withing Harvard's capabilities? Cheers

Jure

[ivand]

8 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

I wonder why nobody bothered to patch up runways on Brustem airfield? Or why pilots had not resorted to use of grass runways, which is well withing Harvard's capabilities? Cheers

Jure

Apparently, the runways had been patched up, but badly and the tyres on the aircraft got used very quickly, until they ran out of new tyres! The logistical chain purportedly had great difficulty sourcing new tyres so the Dutch helped out.

 

Mind you, the 10th Wing also had to move to another base (Chièvres IIRC) from their brand new base in Kleine-Brogel a couple of years later, because the concrete wasn't up to the job (contained too much sand). That's "la Belgique à papa" for you, in some regards not too different from, let's say, the south of Italy (though less temperamentful and a lot colder).

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Ivand

Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately it would sound familiar to many around here, too, although with necessary local adjustments, of course. Cheers

Jure

[Mike Starmer]

Graham, I did all of those mods.  On the North American theme, I bought an RS Yale yesterday with RCAF markings.  According to the leaflet with it, they will issue a French marked N.A. 64 version too.  Four subject aircraft, two overall yellow and two bare metal with yellow highviz areas.   The kit is very finely molded with interior framework but no control boxes or switch boxes on them.  Correct engine and undercarriage fairings, but you have to cut off the torque calipers from the legs to fit them.  Which makes me think other versions might be in the offing.  Wrong type of pitot tube, it should cranked, not straight.  The instructions tell you to use decal instrument panels, but these are not included on the sheet nor are the prominent wing walkways.  These are not shown on the coloured box instructions either, nor are the part mainplane and tailplane yellow areas common on the bare metal versions but the small rear fuselage section is.   I have a photograph of one of the subject aircraft where these features are visible.   Never mind, good effort for a relatively obscure aircraft.  Having got this far I am hoping that with another engine, cowling and intakes they might release a BT-14, which would save me converting this one. 

[Graham Boak]

I've one on order, but another is tempting (French or German).  Thanks for the tips.  Yale markings did vary a little with time: I have one picture ( in Fletcher&McPhail's book) of a bare metal one with the yellow markings on the wings but apparently not on the rear fuselage nor tailplane (3371 at Camp Borden).  Others appear to have no wing markings either but as the clearest shot is of one fresh from the production line that may not count.  I must admit being more tempted by a wireless trainer, but the kit doesn't give the extra parts for that option.  My knowledge doesn't run to knowing which of the kit-provided serials apply to the wireless trainers too.   Interestingly, the artwork on RS home page does show yellow markings on wings, tail and fuselage for both bare metal options.

[Mike Starmer]

I have a picture of Yales in flight that shows two with partial French underwing markings and only one wing serial.  It appears that the RAF markings were applied directly over the French ones so the position is not according to RAF position regulations.  I cannot recall any pictures showing aerial posts or wires though.

[Graham Boak]

I can't see any photo of pilot-training Yales with any aerials, but after transfer to wireless training there was a large mast forward of the windscreen, a D/F fairing on the rear fuselage and a carburettor intake above the nose behind the cowling.  This intake was also seen on pilot trainers late in this service, so presumably was a more general mod rather than being linked to the wireless fit..

 

F&McP has other photos of Yales being assembled, and they do have the yellow patches in all five places.  I'm beginning to wonder if those photos where some at least are not visible is some kind of photo-effect - although they do include examples where the red and yellow on the roundels appear black, suggesting ortho film.  In which case the patches should also appear very dark, and don't.  Best to play safe and stick with the known examples that do, methinks, so time to look for appropriately sized numbers.

[politicni komisar]

We really need a new and modern kit 1/72 & 1/48

especially early Harvard II, III, with the right glazing and early Texan

It would also be some decals WWII RAF & Early Americans

I would be very happy to correct Tuskeege TEXANS .

hope for the best .

 

P.k