Northrop P-61 Black Widow vs Heinkel He-219 Uhu

[Slater]

These two aircraft (as far as I'm aware) never encountered each other during the war, and comparisons can be influenced by various factors such as pilot skill/training, tactics, mechanical reliability, etc. Still, is it possible to speculate (on paper, anyway) which aircraft was the most capable/effective? 

[Adam Maas]

The interesting thing is they are very similar on paper. The P-61 was decidedly slower in stock form (the He-219 was about 20mph faster) but on the flip side it never tried to chase Mosquito's.

I'd suspect the 219 was the better of the two, if only because of its faster speed, and heavier armament with 2x30mm in the more optimized Schragemusik installation (vs the 61's two or 4 .50's in the turret). The Luftwaffe had decidedly more experience with nightfighters than the USAAF and I think the setup of the 219 was more optimized for killing typical nighttime targets.

I'd expect if they'd met it would likely have been a pretty even fight. Both could get away from the other if need be (the 219 is faster, the 61 had a higher service ceiling)

[Chuck1945]

4 hours ago, Adam Maas said:

...
I'd suspect the 219 was the better of the two, if only because of its faster speed, and heavier armament with 2x30mm in the more optimized Schragemusik installation (vs the 61's two or 4 .50's in the turret). The Luftwaffe had decidedly more experience with nightfighters than the USAAF and I think the setup of the 219 was more optimized for killing typical nighttime targets.

I'd expect if they'd met it would likely have been a pretty even fight. Both could get away from the other if need be (the 219 is faster, the 61 had a higher service ceiling)

The P-61 had 4x20mm cannon in a ventral position, early A models had only the cannon and no turret. The schragemusik arrangement was useful if the He 219 could sneak up behind and below. While the He 219 was faster, the maneuver flaps on the P-61 probably made it a more maneuverable aircraft. In combat it probably would have been the case of which detected the other first and crew ability/training.

[Reserve_22]

He219A0 have 4x20mm fuselage and 2x30mm wings-seen on Modrow aircraft

He219A2-A7 have 2x20mm fuselage 2x30mm wings and 2x20 shrage musik on top fuselage

He 219 and Ta154 was first special night planes others nightfighters comes from day fighters or bombers(Bf110,Do217,Fw190....)

Edited April 6, 2017 by Reserve_22

[JohnT]

I suspect the quality f the radar and its performance on each would make a huge difference along with how good the ground control was too.  Also not sure that a speed difference between the types is that important.  The ability to catch up with the target and then maneouvre in to a kill position would be more relevant rather than type performance versus type.

 

Interesting question though and well posed.

 

How does the Mossie fare in that mix I wonder?  I think I read the He 219 found the Mossie and handful if they encountered each other but that might just be a combination of old age and national bias

 

 

[Gerrardandrews]

It's a very sad fact, that by 1944, German night fighting skills were some the best in the world, He 219, was a really good night fighter, designed for the job, Black widow P61much the same, but with the Germans having lot of experience with the trade, Some the pilots, maybe some the best in the world at the time, I rest my case😐

[JWM]

AFAIR the last combat victory in WWII was P-61 over ... Ki-43! This says something about dog-figh capabilities of P-61, I think.

Cheers

J-W

[Slater]

According to official USAAF histories on the P-61, "The plane proved to be highly maneuverable, more so than any other AAF fighter".

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

3 hours ago, JWM said:

AFAIR the last combat victory in WWII was P-61 over ... Ki-43! This says something about dog-figh capabilities of P-61, I think.

Cheers

J-W

 

It says nothing about the P-61 except perhaps a Ki-43 got in it's way. Over Burma and India RAF Spitfire VIII's didn't bother dog fighting the Ki-43 as that would be a little futile. Instead they used their superior speed and firepower and attacked in a shallow dive with the throttle wide open. If they hit, the Ki-43 is gone, if it misses the Ki-43 can't catch the Spitfire, as it's far too fast. In your statement it doesn't say how the P-61 fought the Ki-43, it could have just sneaked up from behind and ripped it too shreds with it's considerable firepower, it wouldn't much hitting to down a Ki-43.

 

thanks

Mike 

[JWM]

39 minutes ago, Mikemx said:

It says nothing about the P-61 except perhaps a Ki-43 got in it's way. Over Burma and India RAF Spitfire VIII's didn't bother dog fighting the Ki-43 as that would be a little futile. Instead they used their superior speed and firepower and attacked in a shallow dive with the throttle wide open. If they hit, the Ki-43 is gone, if it misses the Ki-43 can't catch the Spitfire, as it's far too fast. In your statement it doesn't say how the P-61 fought the Ki-43, it could have just sneaked up from behind and ripped it too shreds with it's considerable firepower, it wouldn't much hitting to down a Ki-43.

 

You are right. It could be just like that. However I was remebering that it was a bit differently, but I was not sure. So I googled for it now and found something like that:  

"On the night of August 14, 1945, the P-61B Black Widow named Lady in the Dark of the 548th Night Fight Squadron in the Pacific Theater engaged a Nakajima Ki-43 and forced it into the sea without firing a shot. This was credited as the last Allied aerial victory of World War II. Although the war was officially over no one knew for sure if all of Japan's military had heard the news and stopped fighting. The P-61 night fighters flew again on the night of August 15th and Lady in the Dark, piloted by Captain Lee Kendall, encountered a Nakajima Ki-44 (Tojo). The P-61 crew lost and reacquired the Ki-44 several times, then lost it for good and returned to their base. The next day ground troops found the wrecked Ki-44. In the darkness, Lady in the Dark's crew had forced the Japanese aircraft down, again without firing a shot." 

Regards

J-W

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

That's a bit more detail but it still doesn't state it was the result of dog fight and exactly how they managed to force them into the sea.  V1's were forced to crash by RAF fighters without firing shots by tipping the V1 wing tips with their own wing tips. I can't imagine they did that to a manned Ki-43 but you never know, strange things do happen. A Ki-44 would be easier to dog fight, as they weren't that agile, they were built to climb fast, be faster in a straight line and have more firepower than a Ki-43. I would be interested to know exactly how it forced the aircraft down without shooting.

 

thanks

Mike

[Slater]

For all we know, the Japanese pilot got disoriented in the dark and simply flew into the sea.