WWII SAAF roundel colours

[Vingtor]

I am currently building the Airfix 1/48 scale P-40E, which I plan to finish in SAAF No.4 Sqn colours, from April 1942. Unfortunately I don't have any photos of the actual aircraft, only the registration code from the pilot's log book. SAAF aircraft would normally have RAF style insignia, with orange instead of red. I have a few photos of other aircraft from the same squadron, with rather dark roundel center disks. Also, some profile drawings (which should not be taken as evidence) are done with red roundel disks instead of red.

 

Now, I'm calling out the experts. I assume that the aircraft were delivered in Temperate Land Scheme with RAF roundel colours. The camouflage was obviously repainted to Desert Scheme. Would the roundels have been repainted at the same time, or were the SAAF aircraft drawn from RAF stocks, and flown with RAF markings - or possibly repainted orange when convenient?

 

Any information or thoughts are welcome.

 

Nils

[Graham Boak]

From what I can see, the orange centre to the roundel did not appear until 1943.  This is, I'm afraid, a matter of judgement rather than being able to quote a specific authorisation date for the orange centres, but I've been looking at photos in SAAF Squadrons (not just 4 Sq) and The SAAF at War.  Although there are a number of fairly ambiguous views, there are also ones where the red is clearly darker than the blue, which I do not believe would be the case with the SAAF orange.  This is true as late as November 1942 on the SAAF's first Spitfires.  Supplemental to this, all the profiles at the rear show the aircraft prior to 1943 with RAF roundels, and all the ones from 1943 with the orange.  In discussing the way of distinguishing  7 (SAAF) Sq's Hurricane Mk,.IID from the similar aircraft of 6 (RAF) Sq. in 1942, the way the two units' carry their codes are mentioned but not any difference in the colour of the roundel centre, despite the main photo in the discussion being colour.

[tonyot]

The SAAF in the Med drew aircraft from RAF stocks and they were delivered with RAF roundels. Many continued to operate with the dull red RAF central disc and others were repainted as and when there was time. This is why you see darker and lighter central discs in the same photo,..... as per the picture that my SAAF Mustang was based on, seen below;

 

Good luck with your Kittyhawk,

Cheers

          Tony

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Nils

I agree with Graham. It is possible though, that individual aircraft had had their markings modified. On two photos of 3 Sqn. Mohawk IV from East Africa campaign both fuselage dot and the leading stripe of the fin flash seems to be painted with very light colour. This, of course, is my speculation, based on b/w photos. Cheers

Jure

[Nick Millman]

5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

From what I can see, the orange centre to the roundel did not appear until 1943.  

FWIW Ron Belling* records aircraft at the Air Schools in SA already having orange centres at the outbreak of WWII and SAAF aircraft replacing the red centre with Light Orange when the post-1942 C-type roundels were introduced. He illustrates various SAAF Kittyhawks with orange roundel centres. 

 

Light Orange is a BS381c colour 557 more appropriate for the post-war period. The earlier pre-war BS colour was simply 57 Orange - a very similar colour and not particularly "light". I don't think photographic tones are always reliable in determining the roundel colours, especially as SAAF used some non-standard blues too.

 

Nick

 

* Military Aviation in South Africa (Midland Counties Publications, 1989)

 

  

[Vingtor]

Thanks for the info, and for your comments. We are doing an "Airfix 1/48 P-40B" group build for the upcoming IPMS Norway nationals, and my model will be an aircraft flown by a Norwegian pilot who briefly served with 4 Sqn.

 

Most other models in the GB are either AVG or RAF 112 Sqn., thus the orange roundels would make a difference. However, I would rather finish the model correctly than spectacular.

 

On the positive side, this saves me for some work as I don't have the early SAAF roundels. I would have to modify RAF roundels - cutting orange from Xtradecal SAAF Spitfire post May 1942 roundels.

 

Nils

[Vingtor]

My best (!) reference photos. Not the same aircraft though, but the same squadron and unit letters.

 

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, Nils

FWIW ... I vote for red. Cheers

Jure

[Hardcastle]

As a South African who has seen some colour photos in our airforce museum I would suggest they repainted in the orange on the Kittyhawks - Try contacting IPMS Cape Town who made a few sets of SAAF decals in the correct shades some years ago as a giveaway. I can check what I have on file and revert with some docs if you like?

 

Tim H

Durban

ZA

[Vingtor]

31 minutes ago, Hardcastle said:

As a South African who has seen some colour photos in our airforce museum I would suggest they repainted in the orange on the Kittyhawks - Try contacting IPMS Cape Town who made a few sets of SAAF decals in the correct shades some years ago as a giveaway. I can check what I have on file and revert with some docs if you like?

 

Nick also describes that the red was repainted on post-1942 C-type roundels on Kittyhawks. However, I am modelling a Tomahawk with the earlier A-type roundels. Would the same apply?

 

If I should switch to orange for my model, I can manage with what I have of spare decals. It just requires some work.

 

Nils

[tonyot]

You re better off comparing the central disc to the known red of the roundel. Look at this SAAF Tomahawk (not Kittyhawk!), which looks to have orange centres to me;

I have chosen orange for a model from the same unit;

As I stated previously,....... the aircraft would have been delivered with red centres and then repainted as and when they could be with a mixture of colours in the unit,

Cheers

           Tony

Edited March 19, 2017 by tonyot

[Hardcastle]

Tony's model fits with what I have seen on museum photos and models

 

Tim H

[Super Aereo]

The orange centre appears well before 1943, I think...

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205123798

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Super Aereo

[Jure Miljevic]

Yes, on aircraft which had been delivered to or had already been on Union's territory when the war started. Cheers

Jure

[Nick Millman]

Slightly tangential but there are some wonderful SAAF photo albums here with some excellent photos of aircraft and details, including many of the East Africa campaign biplane types.

 

http://biltongbru.wixsite.com/ww2-saaf-heritage/photo-albums

 

Nick

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

The Orange centres will always be controversial.

In interviewing many pilots and ground crews I always asked them about the Orange roundels.

They always stated, those that could remember, that it was the first thing they changed when an a/c was delivered.

That is if they had the time.

With times like the Gazala Gallop and when they were on the move and new a/c were delivered there was either no time to paint, or if the paint was still on the way with the B Echelon convoys, and not on the bases yet. Then they painted it later.

There were also chaps who told me that if there was an RAF pilot that was senior on their squadron, then he had the option to keep the roundel red.

Re the 6 RAF and 7 SAAF anti-tank Hurricanes.

In the book I took it as SAAF at that time, as I found that serial number in a SAAF Pilot's logbook. (Simons if I remember correct)

I subsequent found out that there were times that the a/c moved between squadrons and that other 6 RAF sqn Hurricanes also flew with 7 SAAF.

It was a question of using any squadron's a/c if an op needed to take place by one of the two and serviceable /ac were short. It is therefor very possible that the Hurricane could be red or orange, depending of who decided to paint the roundel.

Orange roundels were used from East Africa, so the Tomahawks in 4 sqdn would therefor be more likely to be orange.

Stefaan Bouwer

[Hardcastle]

Hi all

 

Stefaan's work is what I was quoting largely - I checked our old IPMS magazines and most of the stuff was written by him. I humbly defer to his wisdom. I remembered it from when I edited the IPMS Cape Town newsletter.

 

Thanks for also replying Stefaan

 

Regards

Tim Hardcastle (ex IPMS CT, Now IPMS DBN)

[Hardcastle]

One other interesting point: The two squadron badges for 4 Sqn have different catch-phrases:

The top one means "closer to the poles" - a reference to kicking a rugby ball toward the poles and a quote from a popular Afrikaans song.

The other says "for freedom and for right"

 

Just thought it would be worth sharing.

 

Tim H

[Hardcastle]

Hi all

 

Me again! Try this one: http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4196

Stefaan Bouwers work quoted there too.

Tim H (South Africa)

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

Back at home and dug up some notes and references.

Orange mentioned as roundels in SA mainly, and sometimes pertaining to Middle East.

Tender no B.1293/70 1/1/40 Orange for centre of roundels

SAAF a/c colours orders for Cammo and Markings in E Africa 17/9/40 Orange centres

Tech Order A.125/gen 12 on Cammo and Markings dated 12/1940 Orange centres.

Minutes from DGAF 12/4/20/1/ dated 20/1/42 Orange centres on Camouflaged a/c. 

Further on lots of references from Lewis and Berger, (the main paint suppliers to SAAF and also RAF in East Africa and partially Far East) to Orange as paint stock.

I would still put my money on Orange unless you have a photo to prove otherwise.

Stefaan

 

 

[andyf117]

Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another...

Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117

[Graham Boak]

Yes, I agree.  However the question remains whether this dark colour, which is typical of red on ortho film, actually means red was used or whether the SAAF orange would give the same effect.  The Yellow of the roundel, which is an orange-yellow rather than a lemon yellow, appears dark but distinct; as indeed does the yellowish Mid-Stone camouflage.  Dark Earth often appears much darker on ortho film, but the effects of weathering and lens filters prevent anything definite being said.  Or at least said convincingly.

 

Before being personally convinced, I'd like to see more photos of specifically orange (and the early orange at that) centres on such film.  If the later instructions call for Light Orange, what was being used before?  As a long term Ferrari fan, I remember that when the team changed from scarlet to vermilion there were detractors calling the cars "orange".  Vermilion is red in my palette of colours.  How red was the early SAAF orange?

[bobmig]

I found, on a flag website, reference to the South African flag of the period as using  "old British Standard Colour Classification - Orange: BBC 57". I have no idea what that is, so someone more familiar with that standard will have to chime in.

Bob

[Graham Boak]

This should be BSC no.57, which is indeed orange.  (BSC = British Standard Colour)  However my copy of the 1931 chart is only electronic and there it looks much the same as the "usual" colour used.  How this differs from a "Light Orange", which does not appear on the BSC 1931 chart, nor on any MAP colour chart that I've seen, I know not.

[Stefaan]

Hi Guys.

In all the references and photos, included the Lodestar with Jannie Smuts above showed the Orange as the same colour as on the SA Flag used up till 1994.