Color questions about RAF P-400 sent to Austrailia in 1942

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello Gentlemen

.  Got a color question about the RAF P-400's that were sent to Austrailia in 1942. From what I understand the P-400's that the RAF rejected (that were painted in US equivelent colors, OD green and a and greys) were serving in those colors until the grey was sprayed over with some sort of brown. I am curious about the type of brown they used, and did some of these aircraft go to the 67 FSq on Guadalcanal?

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

Hi Randy

 

Offhand I don't know much about the Australian Airacobras, there is a book,

https://www.redroomodels.com/red-roo/bell-p-39-airacobra-in-raaf-service/

 

and I'm sure that other willl know more.

OK, a look here which list all the Aus P-39's

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a53.htm

 

the Australian's got ONE P-400,

Quote

Bell Airacobra, American designation P-39. This is a rare photograph, location unknown; showing what appears to be a Royal Air Force Serial BW-114 on fuselage. British (Pacific area) blue/ white roundel, no. red, NO. 266 On fin, and an American star under wing. appendix 4, page 117 of "the golden years, official RAAF publication in 1971, indicates that 22 of these aircraft, with Serial Prefix A53- allocated, were (at least on paper) taken on RAAF charge; and that NOS. 23 and 24 Squadrons, RAAF, had some issued to them (at least on paper). Note droppable belly tank. See V-651 and V653, showing WAAAF Aircraftwomen, possibly trainee fitters, with three of these aircraft, possibly at Point Cook (VIC). Possibly downgraded for use as instructional airframes.

https://www.awm.gov.au/blog/2014/06/13/p-39-airacobras-defence-australia/

 

the rest are US supplied and serialed,

I have the Red Roo decals,

https://www.redroomodels.com/148-scale/raaf-p-39-airacobras-148/

and some got Australian paint, decals not too hand to check though, but they would have been OD over Neutral gray, and some got Australian Earth Brown disruptive pattern?

 

I think later the RAAF P-39's got a  got a full repaint in Australain colours

EDIT - looking at the Red Roo instruction, the plane below is described as being original US OD upper with Australian Sky Blue underside.

 

one plane on the sheet has a disrutive pattern of Dark Grey over the OD uppers.

 

 

regarding the 67th FG were the P-400's were taken over from an  RAF order, and  were in RAF specified colours, NOT equivalent.

(Thats for lend lease, and is the use of US paint colors instead of British specified)

 

Anyway, they were painted in Temperate Land Scheme,  Dark Green/Dark Earth over Sky,

as this famous shout shows

 

note RAF serial.   Many sources say the undersides are pale gray, for some reason the use paint was called "sky grey"

 "Sky Type S Grey"  though it's actually a close match for RAF Sky,  though there are many folks who still think it was grey, this usually in the context of AVG P-40's though.

 

 the only grey/green (day fighter scheme) Airacobras were one repainted in the UK.

this thread deals with Airacobra Mk. I, 

in particular note the link too here, 

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg19118#msg19118

 

which lead to a load of color shots of a salvaged Soviet ex RAF P-39, still in the US factory applied paint.  Compare to the P-400 above.

 

67th FG P-400 discussed here

Hopefully others will fill in details on the Australain planes for you

 

cheers

T

[Guest]

Thanks Troy, always good to hear from you. The info I got on these aircraft was from an older Squadron/Signal publication on the P-39, and it mentioned the fact that the RAF aircraft was/were not painted in the TSS immediately upon arrival. You have answered my color question, so dark brown lightened for effect, should work. I got to sit in the cockpit of a P-39 and I was surprised at the headroom. It really is a neat plane. BTW, a great book to read about the use of the P-400/39 on Guadalcanal is Cactus Air Force, highly recommended.

Cheers

[Graham Boak]

One minor point: I think that the underside paint was called "Sky Type S Grey" not Sky Grey, which was a different colour, and out of use by then.

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

One minor point: I think that the underside paint was called "Sky Type S Grey" not Sky Grey, which was a different colour, and out of use by then.

Thank you Graham, now corrected, it was late and I was trying to make the rest comprehensible.

 

cheers

T

[mhaselden]

The Military Aircraft Museum has components of a P-400 recovered from Guadalcanal.  To my MkI eyeball, the underside colour is visually very similar to MAP Sky which I would describe as a pale bluish-green.  It's definitely not grey or a straight pale blue colour.  Sharing in case it's of use in this conversation...

 

Cheers,
Mark

[Graham Boak]

The problem with the term Sky Grey is that this did exist separately and was indeed a light grey, and was available from Dupont (and no doubt other US paint manufacturers).

 

My understanding is that the early RAAF colours were the same as the Air Ministry (strictly the responsibility of the Ministry of Aircraft Production by then) and it was as a result of extreme fading in tropical conditions that the specific RAAF colours Foliage Green and Earth Brown were later adopted.  I've seen it said that RAAF Dark Earth was darker than MAP Dark Earth, but whether this was just a natural variation or a deliberate reformulation I don't know.  This suggests that any repainting of  Olive Drab P-39s would perhaps use this darker Dark Earth.  I suspect (indeed, hope) that this will now be criticised/amplified/corrected by our Australian members.

 

Quite how a faded MAP Dark Earth might differ from a faded RAAF Dark Earth or indeed a faded RAAF Earth Brown is probably best left to the individual modeller's discretion.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Graham Boak

[Seahawk]

A few snippets:

• Despite where it has been posted,I believe BW114 in Troy's post to be an aircraft in USAAF service.  Air Britain Serials BA-BZ says that, with a handful of exceptions, NOT including BW114, all the batch of Airacobra Is BW100 to BW183 were "diverted before shipment": so RAF colours and serials, USAAF markings.  ISTR that Revell reboxed their aged 1/72 Airacobra in these markings at one stage.
• In addition to Troy's photo of TZ of 23 Sq RAAF, Geoff Pentland's RAAF Camouflage and Markings 1939-1945 Vol 1 has a photo (p.81)of TX from the same angle.  He explains that code T indicated 23 Sq and that XT on the starboard side would "almost certainly have read TX" on the port side.  He quotes the serial of this aircraft as A53-12.  Colour notes as follows, verbatim: "The codes were grey on this aircraft, A53-12, and the color scheme appears to have been foliage green, earth brown and the original US colour misleadingly named sky blue underneath.  Actually the latter was a match for sky type S."  However this book dates from 1980 and may have been overtaken by more recent research.  I note that here and again elsewhere in the book he never categorically plumps for foliage green and earth brown and I for one am open to the idea of these aircraft still being in MAP colours.
• Elsewhere in the same book (p.74) there is artwork, rpt artwork by Pentland of an "Airacobra" (actually a P-400, judging by the 20mm cannon).  No serial but full codes GR-T (T aft).  Caption reads, "an almost forgotten type is the P-39 Airacobra, 21 of which were delivered to the RAAF in the early days of the Pacific war when fighters of any kind were desperately needed.  A small number carried full three-letter codes as on this example of 24 sqn in early 1943.  Finish was a rather patchy earth brown, foliage green and sky blue.  As will be seen in other color illustrations, earth brown varied greatly in hue, due to the nature of the pigments available for maunfacture."    
• In another of Pentland's books, Aircraft of the RAAF 1921-1971, there is a murky rear threequarters view of an Airacobra flown by Sq Ldr Davidson and based at Bankstown in 1942 soon after the midget submarine attack in Sydney Harbour.  Very dark: hard to tell what colours are: could even be monotone uppersurfaces.  Type A (not A1) fuselage roundel and fin flash (ie still with red).  No serial visible.  

HTH.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Seahawk

[Graham Boak]

Pentland's book was published long before knowledge of Dupont's Sky Type S Grey.  Now we know about it, that makes sense of the comment equating "sky blue" with "sky type S".   However, it isn't the same as RAF/RAAF Sky Blue, something which the original text doesn't make clear. 

 

PS Lovely books, though.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Graham Boak

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, mhaselden said:

The Military Aircraft Museum has components of a P-400 recovered from Guadalcanal.  To my MkI eyeball, the underside colour is visually very similar to MAP Sky which I would describe as a pale bluish-green.  It's definitely not grey or a straight pale blue colour.  Sharing in case it's of use in this conversation...

 

Cheers,
Mark

hi Mark

you may have missed this

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php?topic=1714.msg19118#msg19118

 Airacobra I BX225 from 2 giap flown by E.A. Gridyushko.

which lead to a load of color shots of a salvaged Soviet ex RAF P-39, still in the US factory applied paint. 

in particular

http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1314&mode=view

http://sk16.ru/forum/download/file.php?id=1317&mode=view

 

4 hours ago, Seahawk said:

A few snippets:

• Despite where it has been posted,I believe BW114 in Troy's post to be an aircraft in USAAF service.  Air Britain Serials BA-BZ says that, with a handful of exceptions, NOT including BW114, all the batch of Airacobra Is BW100 to BW183 were "diverted before shipment": so RAF colours and serials, USAAF markings.  ISTR that Revell reboxed their aged 1/72 Airacobra in these markings at one stage.
• In addition to Troy's photo of TZ of 23 Sq RAAF, Geoff Pentland's RAAF Camouflage and Markings 1939-1945 Vol 1 has a photo (p.81)of TX from the same angle.  He explains that code T indicated 23 Sq and that XT on the starboard side would "almost certainly have read TX" on the port side.  He quotes the serial of this aircraft as A53-12.  Colour notes as follows, verbatim: "The codes were grey on this aircraft, A53-12, and the color scheme appears to have been foliage green, earth brown and the original US colour misleadingly named sky blue underneath.  Actually the latter was a match for sky type S."  However this book dates from 1980 and may have been overtaken by more recent research.  I note that here and again elsewhere in the book he never categorically plumps for foliage green and earth brown and I for one am open to the idea of these aircraft still being in MAP colours.
• Elsewhere in the same book (p.74) there is artwork, rpt artwork by Pentland of an "Airacobra" (actually a P-400, judging by the 20mm cannon).  No serial but full codes GR-T (T aft).  Caption reads, "an almost forgotten type is the P-39 Airacobra, 21 of which were delivered to the RAAF in the early days of the Pacific war when fighters of any kind were desperately needed.  A small number carried full three-letter codes as on this example of 24 sqn in early 1943.  Finish was a rather patchy earth brown, foliage green and sky blue.  As will be seen in other color illustrations, earth brown varied greatly in hue, due to the nature of the pigments available for maunfacture."    
• In another of Pentland's books, Aircraft of the RAAF 1921-1971, there is a murky rear threequarters view of an Airacobra flown by Sq Ldr Davidson and based at Bankstown in 1942 soon after the midget submarine attack in Sydney Harbour.  Very dark: hard to tell what colours are: could even be monotone uppersurfaces.  Type A (not A1) fuselage roundel and fin flash (ie still with red).  No serial visible.  

HTH.

 

I added this above

 

this decal sheet, by Red Roo, who also published the RAAF Airacobra book

https://www.redroomodels.com/148-scale/raaf-p-39-airacobras-148/

 looking at the Red Roo instruction, the plane below is described as being original US OD upper with Australian Sky Blue underside.

said to be A53-9

from http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a53.htm

Quote

A53-9

40-3035

P-39D-BE

15-45

Received by 23 Sqn from the USAAC 17/08/42. Served with 23 Sqn 17/08/42 to 26/02/43. Served with 83 Sqn 26/02/43 to 28/05/43. Converted to components 26/08/43, Remains crated and returned to US 5th Air Force.

 

one of the other schemes is shown as being in this scheme (found on pinterest)

EDIT

http://www.aussiemodeller.com.au/pages/Gallery/Aircraft_E-H/Harvey P-39 Airacobra.html

Quote

Olive Drab and Dark Sea Grey over RAAF Sky Blue undersides. This is speculative as it is based on black and white images of a scheme implemented locally.

Introduction

As part of my fascination with the variety of aircraft used by the RAAF I stumbled upon the decals produced by Red Roo of an unusual scheme worn by an aircraft of 82 SQN RAAF. This scheme was not a standard scheme nor did it seem to follow any particular instruction from RAAF HQ. Due to the nature of some of the patrols being conducted by 82 SQN it was interpreted by some knowledgeable people and being Olive Drab with an overlay of either Medium Grey or Dark Sea Grey. At the time I like the look of the Dark Sea Grey scheme so I used the markings for A53-6, (FA-F).

 

 

 

 

 

this is the photo it's based on

A53-6

A53-6

41-7168

P-39F-1-BE

15B-53

Received 27/07/42 2 AD. Served with 24 Sqn 02/08/42 to 12/10/42. Holed Propeller 05/09/42 while employed in air to ground gunnery practice. Served with 82 Sqn 07/06/43 to 20/08 or 30/08/43. 20/08/43 or 30/08/43 (Records not clear) Forced Landing due to Engine failure 47 miles due east of Liverpool, aircraft repairable. Crated 22/10/43 for return to the US 5th Air Force, which occurred on the 11/11/43.

 

there is a P-39 that has been restored in Australian colours

 

taken from, see for more images

https://acesflyinghigh.wordpress.com/2014/02/12/aussie-p-39-airacobra-emergency-defender/

 

Hopefully his will spur on of  out (I presume) Australian members to give current chapter and verse on the subject

 

cheers

T

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Troy Smith
add details and links

[Guest]

On closer examination of the Squadron book, the author minions that "of the 675 model 14's ordered by the RAF, 179 were taken over by the USAAF, retaining their RAF serial numbers, over 100 of the model14's, designated P-400 in US service were shipped to Austrailia in 1942 to bolster the USAAF units there." The serial number series were; AH728-738, AP266-183, BW-100-183 and BX135-174. There are two pictures showing P-400's taken at Laverton RAAF base. One picture shows three P-400's in various color schemes. One was the famous BW-176. Many of the P-400's in US service eventually were painted OD over NG.Thru photos and historical documents we know that at least some of those aircraft were sent to the 76th FSq on Guadalcanal. So Bell aircraft painted the RAF Cobra's in colors as close to MAP colors as possible? When I think about how US manufacturers of Lend-Lease aircraft had differing shades of MAP designated colors I think of Vought's dark grey and OD green paints, as well as Curtiss and Republic's renditions. From the chips I have the US sky type S is a bit more grey and more subdued than the RAF Sky type S. Then there is the "duck egg blue", then "sky blue" and then the headaches start all over again. As long as I have a basic idea of the paint scheme then I am good. Did the Aussie's paint their aircraft in Austrailian or Britsh manufactured colors? Any info on that? Did the Americans spray their aircraft with US made colors, or Australian, or even British? Thanks for the help guys, hope you don't get a headache too!

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, Spitfire addict said:

On closer examination of the Squadron book, the author minions that "of the 675 model 14's ordered by the RAF, 179 were taken over by the USAAF, retaining their RAF serial numbers, over 100 of the model14's, designated P-400 in US service were shipped to Austrailia in 1942 to bolster the USAAF units there." The serial number series were; AH728-738, AP266-183, BW-100-183 and BX135-174. There are two pictures showing P-400's taken at Laverton RAAF base. One picture shows three P-400's in various color schemes. One was the famous BW-176. Many of the P-400's in US service eventually were painted OD over NG.Thru photos and historical documents we know that at least some of those aircraft were sent to the 76th FSq on Guadalcanal. So Bell aircraft painted the RAF Cobra's in colors as close to MAP colors as possible? When I think about how US manufacturers of Lend-Lease aircraft had differing shades of MAP designated colors I think of Vought's dark grey and OD green paints, as well as Curtiss and Republic's renditions. From the chips I have the US sky type S is a bit more grey and more subdued than the RAF Sky type S. Then there is the "duck egg blue", then "sky blue" and then the headaches start all over again. As long as I have a basic idea of the paint scheme then I am good. Did the Aussie's paint their aircraft in Austrailian or Britsh manufactured colors? Any info on that? Did the Americans spray their aircraft with US made colors, or Australian, or even British? Thanks for the help guys, hope you don't get a headache too!

 

Hi Randy

 

much debated.

You seem to be getting  little  confused.... having spent far too much time on forums, this as I understand it what you are asking.

 

In short, early supplies of US built aircraft for the British were bought by the British, and painted to British specifications.

 

US paint manufacturers ,eg Du Pont made these paints, here's a color chart of British colours

 

from

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234969832-colors-raf-p-40bc/

 

Early Lend Lease types, for example Grumman built types,  (who had been building aircraft for the British)  carried on using MAP specified colours,  later there were agreed equivalent colors,  which were standard U.S.  A.N.A. paint colors,  which were 'close enough'  and greatly eased production supplies.

 

For example, this is why Eastern built Avengers were in Olive Drab/Sea Gray over Sky Gray, (US ANA colours)   Grumman Avengers were Extra Dark  Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey over Sky.(US made MAP equivalents)

 

the chap who really knows about this is Nick Millman 

 

Australia made their own paint,  I've read about B.A.L.M. paint (British Australian Lead Manufacturers)

 

HTH?

T

[Guest]

Thanks again Troy, that info helps, and Nick's Lend lease aircraft sit is bookmarked. The pics you shared of the Russian find raises some questions. FIrst, the P-400 that arrived at Duxford were in the newly adopted green,grey, and sky bottoms, which was adopted for the new area of operation across the channel. My question is, if the change had been made to the above mentioned scheme, why would Bell ship their Cobra's in the old TLS? Did the RAF paint over the brown prior to the one and only cross channel raid, which made it quite evident to the RAF that the Bell's were wholly inadaquate.. Most of the P-400's were sent to Russia, those were diverted before they got to England, so that would suggest that the TLS was applied at the factory. Further, is it possible that the switch to Grey, green scheme was undertaken after the aircraft were crated? If anything Troy, I spend too much time reading who-dunnits, and watching Poirot and Midsommer Murders!

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

Hi Randy

 

OK, the Airacobras were delivered in Temperate Land Scheme,  the  601 Sq planes entered service in August 1941,  which is when the switch from TLS to DFS scheme happened.  

 

601 Sq only flew one mission, but they had Airacobras for longer than that as they were working up and familiarising with the type.

 

 note from

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235015252-bell-airacobra-mk1-cockpit-colour/

Quote

the VVS got P-39's in both Temperate Land Scheme (US applied)

Bell Airacobra      1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

and repainted 

5 pages here,about Airacobra mk.I's in the VVS

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1363.0

 

 

Quote

Nick Millman explains:  "The nose stencils on rectangles of the original factory undersurface colour, indicating an early production aircraft with the high demarcation applied by Bell. The stencils were masked off when the RAF MU applied the DFS and filled in the Sky areas on nose and tail with the upper surface colours (also the reason why the camouflage demarcation in these areas on some aircraft is different from the standard scheme)."

Re-painted in Briatain in gray-green camouflage scheme

 

note 'sky' patches where the stencils were masked off.

the Bell Green front UC leg suggests u

 

AFAIK, the Airacobra Mk.I's were then shipped from the UK to the Soviet Union, not diverted, some having been repainted in DFS,  the other in the original TLS paint,  both are seen in photos of VVS, there are a load in the link above   

 

Have a read of the Ducimus Camo guide as well.

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/12-Tomahawk-Airacobra

 

Regarding the inadequate Bell

 

 the VVS did very well with the 'Kobra', years of misinformation will trot out the line that they were used as tankbusters,  in fact  they used them as air superiority fighters

http://acepilots.com/planes/soviet_p39_airacobra.html

in particular note this list of Soviet aces who flew the Airacobra 

 

Leading Soviet Airacobra Aces
Pilot	Victories	P-39 Victories	Regiment
Aleksandr I. Pokryshkin	59	48	9 GFD
Nikolay Gulaev	57	41	129 GFR
Grigori A. Rechkalov	56	50	16 GFR
Dimitriy B. Glinka	50	41	100 GFR
Vladimir I. Bobrov	43	*	104 GFR
Aleksey Smirnov	34	30	153 FR
Ivan I. Babak	33	32	16 GFR
Mikhail S. Komelkov	32	32	104 GFR
A. Klubov	31	27	16 GFR
Boris B. Glinka	31	31	16 GFR
A. Fedorov	24	*	16 GFR
V. Semenishin	23	*	104 GFR
K. Sukhov	22	*	16 GFR
P. Eremin	22	*	16 GFR
P. Kryukov	22	*	16 GFR
N. Chistov	19	*	16 GFR
* - not identified, but likely most of their totals were scored in Airacobras

 

 

the full list is here

http://www.wio.ru/aces/ace2.htm

 

note that  Rechkalov and Pokryshkin are usually listed as 2nd and 3rd Soviet aces..

 

the big problem with the P-39 was lack of a supercharger,  but as most combat on the Eastern Front was under 10,000 feet/ 3,000m that was not a problem.

 

note this

http://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/cleaver/tmcp400.htm

Quote

Often derided as the least of the fighters with which the USAAF went to war, the airplane the RAF rejected and only the Russians loved, the Bell P-39 "Airacobra" has mostly gotten a bad rap for events beyond its control, all stemming from the completely-idiotic decision by the Army Air Corps to remove the supercharger that originally equipped the prototype when it developed problems; this dropped the P-39's overall performance and crippled it at altitudes over 10,000 feet.  When this was followed up by sending the airplane into combat with under-trained pilots in 1942 against the pilots of the Imperial Japanese Navy - at the time perhaps the best pilots in the world man for man - and forcing it to fight at altitudes at which it could not perform... well, no wonder it got a bad reputation. 

      On the other hand, the Russians - who used the airplane for combat below 10,000 feet where its performance wasn't crippled - couldn't get their hands on enough Airacobras; the airplane was flown by several of their leading aces, including second-ranked Alexsandr Pokryshkin, who scored the majority of his victories in Airacobras. In North Africa, where the airplane was used within its performance envelope, it won a respectable reputation as a low-level tactical aircraft.  No less a judge of aeronautical horseflesh than Chuck Yeager called the P-39 "my favorite for all-around flying so long as you didn't take it over ten thousand feet; other than that it handled beautifully."

 

cheers

T

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Troy Smith
clarity, adds

[Guest]

Thanks again Troy, you have gone above and beyond the call of duty, plus you have a lot of the answers I need, as do other members (which is why I always go to BM first), so thanks for all the info and visuals. I was able to aquire a nice Hasegawa P-400 so looking to go with the Cactus Air Force scenario.

Cheers

 

[Ed Russell]

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Hopefully this will spur on our Australian members to give current chapter and verse on the subject

 

I think you have covered it pretty fully. The Red Roo book is pretty much the extent of what's known and speculated as far as C & M is concerned, though set for a rewrite in other areas.. I could add more faff and guesswork but there's no point.

[Nick Millman]

12 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

For example, this is why Eastern built Avengers were in Olive Drab/Sea Gray over Sky Gray, (US ANA colours)   Grumman Avengers were Extra Dark  Sea Grey/Dark Slate Grey over Sky.(US made MAP equivalents)

 

 

 

 

Just a minor correction. There was no ANA Sky Gray. The colour standard, at least, was ANA 610 Sky and it was very similar to the MAP/RAF colour. The argument for Avengers - and Corsairs - suggests that ANA 602 Light Gray was applied instead of a Sky equivalent but the only evidence seems to be anecdotal, from paint orders and the recollections of paint shop employees. There are a number of viable challenges to this, some aired before, which I won't go into here. ANA 602 (the former Navy Light Gray) was reportedly eliminated from ANA in January 1944 but was cited as the factory applied under surface colour for the export P-51 in Day Fighter scheme. 

 

However one interesting snippet that I came across recently FWIW was a contemporaneous observer description of the Eastern-built Grumman Wildcat VI for identification purposes which states (my emphasis) that their "colouring is usually sea green and dark sea grey on top, and light sea grey or duck egg green underneath" - page 17, The Aeroplane Spotter, Vol.VI No.128. January 25 1945.

 

Nick