John R Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Is this the same kit as the Revell and Monogram F-104C? I have just seen one the box illustration of one on Ebay which has a refuelling probe which makes me wonder if it is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 The Italeri kit will be the old ESCI kit, not bad in it's day, fine scribed lines but since surpassed by the Revell kit from a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Hello, John I second Wez's opinion. I have a copy of original ESCI kit and it comes with two USAF schemes for Vietnam and several ANG schemes. ESCI decals quality, however, varies from average to useless, I am afraid. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Besides, the ESCI / Italeri lacks the F-104A/C style wheels and RWR undernose / aft fuselage fairings which are included with the RoG / Monogram. Generally, it lacks the finesse of the later RoG. Pretty nice decal sheets in the latest Italeri repops, though. HTH, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 Thank you. If it's a different mould what is the fuselage cross section like? In the one, Monogram, I have the fuselage aft of the wing is oval rather than round and the Revell kit looks the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 The Esci kit supposedly has skinny wing tip tanks, I've a Hasegawa Red Baron kit to do which will donate them to the F-104C kit. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Away back there was a posting saying that wingtip tanks of the ESCI/Italeri kit were way too far back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Hello, John ESCI's kit fuselage is slightly oval, too. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) On 3/10/2017 at 1:40 PM, John R said: Thank you. If it's a different mould what is the fuselage cross section like? In the one, Monogram, I have the fuselage aft of the wing is oval rather than round and the Revell kit looks the same. The Monogram 1/27 F-104C is the same kit as the Revell 1/72 F-104C as far as I know. Regarding the oval shape, here is some solid data from the F-104 Structural Repair Manual: FS 579.5 (this is the panel line just aft of the wing root fairing and ahead of the speed brake) height 55.505" = 1410 mm, 19.6 mm in scale, Esci is 19.4 mm width 57.498" = 1460 mm, 20.3 mm in scale, Esci is 20.9 mm FS 614 (this is the panel line just aft of the speed brake, where the tail detaches for engine removal) height 53.533" = 1360 mm, 18.9 mm in scale, Esci is 18.8 mm width 55.094" = 1399 mm, 19.4 mm in scale, Esci is 19.7 mm So yes, the fuselage is slightly oval. But I don't know whether the kit got it right. From the heart I remember that all 1/72 models have a slightly undersized fuselage. If you can measure it with calipers, please let us know. Rob Edited March 11, 2017 by Rob de Bie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, stevehnz said: The Esci kit supposedly has skinny wing tip tanks, I've a Hasegawa Red Baron kit to do which will donate them to the F-104C kit. Steve. Yes, the Esci/Italeri tanks are substantially undersize. The real diameter is 20.4" = 518 mm, 7.2 mm in scale. Esci is 6.4 mm average, Hasegawa 7.1 mm, Revell 6.8 mm. I would like to add that it is my strong impression that you don't judge ('see') the diameter, but the cross section area. So instead of seeing the Esci tanks at 89% the real size, they look like 79% scale, and that's a big and very visible deviation. Rob Edited March 11, 2017 by Rob de Bie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said: Double post, sorry Edited March 11, 2017 by Rob de Bie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted March 12, 2017 Author Share Posted March 12, 2017 I can't get anything sensible from my model as the rear end has been hacked about but some rough measurements from my other F104C (Still on the sprue, and awkward to measure, as I may not want to keep it) give the following (Rob's figures in italics) FS 579.5 (this is the panel line just aft of the wing root fairing and ahead of the speed brake) height 55.505" = 1410 mm, 19.6 mm in scale, Esci is 19.4 mm - Revell 18.5mm approx width 57.498" = 1460 mm, 20.3 mm in scale, Esci is 20.9 mm - Revell 20mm Approx FS 614 (this is the panel line just aft of the speed brake, where the tail detaches for engine removal) height 53.533" = 1360 mm, 18.9 mm in scale, Esci is 18.8 mm - Revell 18mm Approx width 55.094" = 1399 mm, 19.4 mm in scale, Esci is 19.7 mm - Revell 19mm Approx John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 12, 2017 Share Posted March 12, 2017 Yes the Esci tanks are too small and yest they are not located correctly. The latter can be corrected quite easily but the wrong section can't. And yes, the Esci kit lacks the correct wheels and the RWR antennas, However the Revell/Monogram kit has the antennas not completely correct: the ones under the rear fuselage are fine but the one under the chin is the wrong shape in the kit. Said that, I like the Esci kit, fit is quite good and while other kits are today better it can still be made into a good model. The only thing I don't really like is the canopy, it's too big and this spoils the shape a bit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Before I fork out cash for an Italeri F-104C (I'm not paying silly money for a Revell) can I ask the forum's opinion of the canopy. In some images on line it doesn't look right but that might just be the way the images are taken. Any ideas? Thanks. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said: Before I fork out cash for an Italeri F-104C (I'm not paying silly money for a Revell) can I ask the forum's opinion of the canopy. In some images on line it doesn't look right but that might just be the way the images are taken. Any ideas? Thanks. Martin The Esci/Italeri canopy is quite a bit oversize. It creates a bug-eye impression to me, and I really dislike it. Having said that, the Revell canopy is not so hot either: the division of windshield and canopy is about a millimeter too far forward, which is very visible once you know it. And there's usually a weld line in the canopy that you cannot get out. The only good canopy is that of the Hasegawa kit. Here's a photo from my Seminar 1/72 U-2C webpage. Right is the Hasagawa canopy, left the Esci. You can see the size difference. However, you might not be so shape-obsessed as me, especially when it involves the 104 Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 So, given I have a spare Hasegawa G/S and an Italeri on order (now), could I combine the two to get a better model? M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalako Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 0:45 PM, Jure Miljevic said: ESCI decals quality, however, varies from average to useless, I am afraid. Cheers Jure Hi Jure, You've mentioned something about ESCI's kits decals. Lately, I see quite a few decals' sheets (not from kits) by ESCI on Ebay that must be between 25 to 30 years old. Do you know if they are still usable and/or how accurate they are (shape/colours/details)? Cheers Shalako Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: So, given I have a spare Hasegawa G/S and an Italeri on order (now), could I combine the two to get a better model? I just tried it, but the Hasegawa canopy is definitely not a drop-fit solution on the Esci/Italeri model. You can probably make it fit, with some plastic strip on the cocpit edges and some Milliput. Recently I bumped into Arne Goethe's Hasegawa/Esci F-104C, and that might be the best receipe for an F-104C: use the Hasegawa fuselage up to the tail break, and add the Esci tail. I really like the idea of replacing the Hasegawa tail, getting rid of the annoying rivets. And I agree with Arne that the Esci wings look the best of all kits, so use those too. I just checked with calipers how well this kitbash would fit (theoretically), and it looks good: Fuselage height at rear fuselage break (FS 614): Esci 18.8 mm - Hasegawa 18.6 mm Fuselage width at rear fuselage break (FS 614): Esci 19.7 mm - Hasegawa 20.0 mm Rob Edited March 16, 2017 by Rob de Bie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob de Bie Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said: Another double post, sorry Edited March 16, 2017 by Rob de Bie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 2 hours ago, Shalako said: Hi Jure, You've mentioned something about ESCI's kits decals. Lately, I see quite a few decals' sheets (not from kits) by ESCI on Ebay that must be between 25 to 30 years old. Do you know if they are still usable and/or how accurate they are (shape/colours/details)? Cheers Shalako It really depends on which sheets/subject's you're talking about. Many of the kit decal sheets were printed by Cartograf, printing was often brilliant, adhesion and resistance to silvering a bit hit-and-miss. They also produced their own stand-alone sheets for generic subjects, printing was always great, scaling and adhesion less so. Kit sheets were always better than the stand-alone sheets. How useable some of these are now I can't say! Caveat emptor! Wez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 I often wondered about converting the hasegawa kit into a C... There are several small details to sort but chopping the tail does not look too hard a Job to me. Of course the wheels would have to be replaced but the same applies to the Esci ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 10 hours ago, Giorgio N said: I often wondered about converting the hasegawa kit into a C... There are several small details to sort but chopping the tail does not look too hard a Job to me. Of course the wheels would have to be replaced but the same applies to the Esci ones Personally, I'd go for the Revell F-104C kit. HTH, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 12 hours ago, Wez said: They also produced their own stand-alone sheets for generic subjects, printing was always great, scaling and adhesion less so. Kit sheets were always better than the stand-alone sheets. I have a number of the standalone Esci sheets in the decal dungeon; register is generally... not good. In addition, on my A-7 Corsair sheet, it appears that Esci invented VA-67. Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Hello, Shalako I treat ESCI decals with caution due to unpleasant experiences, I had had with them long time ago. Decals in question were matt, so they were probably not printed by Cartograf. On ESCI Mirage III C and Kfir C2 in 1/48, about half of decals from a lower part of both kits simply fell off. Of course, at the time my modus operandi was to airbrush models with gloss varnish, apply decals and proceed with final gloss or matt coats, depending on colour scheme. Another problematic kit was UH-1D in 1/48 scale. Decals of that kit simply decomposed into small pieces the moment they touched water. A coat of gloss varnish I applied, did not really help. At that time, there was no liquid film or at least I was not aware of its existence, so there was not much more I could do about it. After such experience my confidence in ESCI decals was somewhat shaken. On the other hand ... I built ESCI 1/72 F-15A Eagle OOB and, apart from very lengthy process of applying stencils, original decals only needed some extra treatment to prevent silvering. I also built their 1/48 Mirage III E and while an untreated test decal showed no better resistance to Mother Earth's gravity force than above mentioned decals, softening solution and floor polish remedied this inconvenience. I used SAAF decals from the same set on the old Academy Mirage III E and the same treatment produced the same satisfactory results. Otherwise, I am quite pleased with ESCI's choice of colour schemes and markings, for example Pretty Penny for F-100 D and 318 FIS markings for F-15 A, both in 1/72. Instructions usually included photos of some of the actual aircraft, presented on decals, and their accuracy was usually good. On a negative note, decals were quite often off register, along with ever present silvering. All in all, ESCI decals could be made presentable, impressive even, however not without more than a fair amount of extra work. Cheers Jure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Thanks chaps .... I've gone for a Revell! The Italeri has gone back to the supplier. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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