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Ray S

B6 Medium Blue paint

16 posts in this topic

Hello, I have an old kit of the Tamiya 1/700 Prince of Wales, and would like to do it in the disruptive scheme shown in the instructions.

 

Sovereign Hobbies give a list of these colours for POW:

 

Prince of Wales Camouflage—

MS.1 (RN 04),

MS.3 (RN 06),

B.5 (RN 07),

B.6 (RN 11),

AP 507C Admiralty Medium Grey (RN 03),

White (C 03). 

Steel decks—MS.1 (RN 04);

Wood Decks—Teak (C 01);

Boot-topping—Black (C 02);

Underwater Hull—RN Antifouling Red (RN 19).

 

I have been able to find most of the colours in my paint stash, but can any one say what B6 is I know it was called Medium Blue? White Ensign did it in their Colourcoats range as RN11, but it is not currently listed on the website. I have a range of Akan paint, and it is not there either. So, can you please give me a pointer as to which paint would be a best/close match? There are so many paints that could be called Medium Blue. I don't mind what brand, though preferably one that is easy to get. I am probably going to order replacements for all the paints I do have anyway from Sovereign Hobbies.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Kind regards, Ray

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Hi Ray,

 

We have withdrawn B5 and B6 as we believe both are incorrect. I have been engaged in a huge amount of dialogue with several people who could reasonably be called experts, and furthermore we went to the National Archives at Kew a few weekends back to colour match their definitely original and correctly captioned samples.

 

I am now quite confident that B5 was not a bluish grey, and that RN07 (and every other brand that copied it / Snyder & Short's chips) was based on a misidentified or very faded sample, and have a good idea that B6 was different to our RN11 too. These are going to shake up what many people currently think they "know" about Royal Navy paints so I am ensuring that I have any possible counter arguments shot-down before saying anything further.

 

If you're interested in getting PoW fairly correct, I'd either put it back in the stash for a few more months or build it as KGV or DOY.

 

If you want something roughly in the ballpark, I'd suggest that ACRN34 Azure Blue is sort-of characteristic of B6 (but not that great), or maybe KM09 Blaugrau Hell or GW12 #0 Blue/Grey.

B5 was a fairly vibrant blue not that similar to any other military type colours I can think of. ACRN23 Light Mediterranean Blue is probably the closest we have on the shelf, but if it were me, I'd wait.

 

Sorry this is a bit vague. I'm deliberately not giving too much away right now until I am certain of the colour values and have compiled all the back-up information to prove them correct. What I can say is that every paint on the market right now claiming to be B5 is not representative of B5.

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Thanks Jamie for the info. I will give it a think for a while, but I may well go down the 'sort of' route and order the paints from you soon.

 

Cheers,

 

Ray

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Posted (edited)

Richard, I wonder if you are being misled by the old Humbrol Azure Blue, which was far too dark and (in my opinion) a reasonable match for Light Mediterranean Blue.  This has caused a lot of confusion down the years.  If you look at the original colour charts, Azure Blue is adjacent to LMB, which may explain the error!

Edited by Graham Boak
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Well, I have taken the plunge and ordered the paints, and gone for GW12 as my 'B6'. Now I just have to find a decent pictorial guide to the scheme. 

 

Thanks again for the info Jamie at Sovereign.

 

All the best,

 

Ray

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Will bring along tomorrow a few references that may help you with the camo pattern.  I say "may" because the 4 references i have consulted so far (Ensign 1,  Raven's Warship Perspectives Vol 4: Royal Navy Supplemental, Shipcraft KG V class and Wright's British and Commonwealth Warship Camouflage Vol 2) also show significant differences in scheme and interpretation of colours, odd in such a famous and oft-modelled scheme.  It also seems that the Admiralty Disruptive Scheme applied in August 41 was modified (simplified from 5 to 4 colours) before she sailed for Singapore on 25 Oct 1941 so you'll need to be clear exactly when you want to depict her (and when any reference photos you may find were taken). 

 

Think I'd  go with the name I respect most viz Alan Raven, whose colour calls for the scheme at the time of PoW's sinking mirror Jamie's, less the MS3 which was painted out before sailing for Far East.  Which gives you another problem: Raven says that PoW's wood decks were camouflage painted at the same time as the camo scheme was simplified but that insufficient data has been found so far to permit artwork of the pattern to be drawn. 

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There is an issue with Raven's work insomuch as all primary source references I've seen (and @dickrd above has also read these and in many cases directed me to same as I've started to understand Admiralty documentation practises) implicitly state that 507A and 507B were both Home Fleet Grey, or "Dark Grey, Home Fleet Shade" or similar. 507A and B appear in numerous sources and the implication is not possible to misinterpret when in context. 507B was a late 1930s peacetime paint with enamel content to make paints nice and glossy and harder wearing. 507A is reintroduced at the outbreak of war for the expressed purpose of discontinuing enamel use for war time economy. Formulation of 507A is identical to outgoing 507B save for the omission of Home Fleet shade tinted enamel, and it's still the Home Fleet shade. Raven's idea that 507A was Dark Grey and 507B a Medium Grey is not supported by anything we (dickrd, a few choice others, myself) have found.

 

Whilst Raven's is still valuable work, it's ultimately interpretation of B&W photos and when there's a preconception that 507A and 507B are different shades, it casts doubt on all subsequent interpretations of those photographs.

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Wouldn't presume to argue with you or anyone else using primary sources.  Though, to avoid complicating life further for Ray, we should point out that PoW's scheme did not feature either of these colours.

 

Think the lack of unanimity re colours comes down to interpretation of B&W photos, as you say, and the more colours used, the worse it gets!

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Yes indeed! And you're correct, POW is understood to feature neither 507A nor B.

 

There's a thread knocking on the door of 30 pages on another forum just debating the POW scheme. There are many tangential red herrings in there including shades like PB10 - the Mediterranean based submarine colour - but cutting through all the noise I don't believe POW was in any unusual scheme but rather a fairly typical intermediate Admiralty disruptive scheme using a fairly typical colour palette for the time.

 

I'm quite keen to get the new B5 and B6 out. I think/believe/hope we're about there with B5 but B6 needs further work.

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Seahawk and Jamie, thanks for the extra info!

 

If the 30 odd page thread is where I think you mean, I have tried to go onto it, but get a huge red warning:

 

Deceptive site ahead

Attackers on www.atlanticcharter.ca may trick you into doing something dangerous like installing software or revealing your personal information (for example, passwords, phone numbers, or credit cards).

 

 

so I am hesitant to try and follow this up: it is the only thread there which gives this warning that I have found!

 

52 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

Wouldn't presume to argue with you or anyone else using primary sources.  Though, to avoid complicating life further for Ray, we should point out that PoW's scheme did not feature either of these colours.

 

Think the lack of unanimity re colours comes down to interpretation of B&W photos, as you say, and the more colours used, the worse it gets!

 

Seahawk, I think you know me too well! I can easily get confused!

 

Thanks again, and see you tomorrow Seahawk

 

Ray

 

PS Jamie, I will order the two new paints when you get them sorted, along with at least 4 others for WW1

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4 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Will bring along tomorrow a few references that may help you with the camo pattern.  I say "may" because the 4 references i have consulted so far (Ensign 1,  Raven's Warship Perspectives Vol 4: Royal Navy Supplemental, Shipcraft KG V class and Wright's British and Commonwealth Warship Camouflage Vol 2) also show significant differences in scheme and interpretation of colours, odd in such a famous and oft-modelled scheme.  It also seems that the Admiralty Disruptive Scheme applied in August 41 was modified (simplified from 5 to 4 colours) before she sailed for Singapore on 25 Oct 1941 so you'll need to be clear exactly when you want to depict her (and when any reference photos you may find were taken). 

 

Think I'd  go with the name I respect most viz Alan Raven, whose colour calls for the scheme at the time of PoW's sinking mirror Jamie's, less the MS3 which was painted out before sailing for Far East.  Which gives you another problem: Raven says that PoW's wood decks were camouflage painted at the same time as the camo scheme was simplified but that insufficient data has been found so far to permit artwork of the pattern to be drawn. 

I would forget those references. The most accurate depiction available is to be found here: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=87307&start=520

 

This is the multi page thread James if referring to.

 

It is absolutely clear from photographs and film that PoW remained in her 5 colour scheme to the end (six colours if you count the white top of the aft funnel).

 

I have one very clear photo of PoW's deck forward of the bridge at Cape Town in Nov 41 and it was not painted. There are a couple of aerial photos taken earlier (on 23rd Oct 41) that do seem to show some form of pattern on the deck but this may have been caused by the very low sun angle throwing shadows across the deck and/or water wetting.  The apparent pattern on the deck does not line up with the pattern on the hull sides. Other photos taken on the same sortie do not seem to show pattern on the deck. 

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3 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Wouldn't presume to argue with you or anyone else using primary sources.  Though, to avoid complicating life further for Ray, we should point out that PoW's scheme did not feature either of these colours.

 

Think the lack of unanimity re colours comes down to interpretation of B&W photos, as you say, and the more colours used, the worse it gets!

 Now we know the true tone of 507A I'm afraid that it is a candidate for the second darkest colour on PoW.

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I'm currently working on a different project also using the colours B5 and B6, I don't have access to primary sources but I've tried to guesstimate based on what I have. At the moment I'm looking at using Xtracrylix XA1125 "Intermediate Blue" for B5 and XA1026 "Azure Blue" for B6. I don't know how much that helps the OP, but what do you guys think of those as approximations?

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21 hours ago, Vlad said:

I'm currently working on a different project also using the colours B5 and B6, I don't have access to primary sources but I've tried to guesstimate based on what I have. At the moment I'm looking at using Xtracrylix XA1125 "Intermediate Blue" for B5 and XA1026 "Azure Blue" for B6. I don't know how much that helps the OP, but what do you guys think of those as approximations?

 

They probably aren't a million miles away, at least for B5. B6 I can't comment on really. I have seen pieces of information which appear somewhat contradictory on the face of it so it needs more research to understand and conclude on.

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