Jump to content

The Dope on Eindeckers


Nick Millman

Recommended Posts

Has the grey-green dope on Austro-Hungarian Eindeckers (circa 1982-3 Scale Models and 1989 Windsock Datafile) been discredited? The recent Windsock Eindecker compendiums make no mention of it and all machines in the two volumes are depicted as clear doped. What, if known, is the current expertise about it?

 

Way back when the old Profile series # 38 depicted Eindeckers in various shades of blue-grey. Any basis for believing in that or just tonal interpretations?

 

Thanks for any insight!

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't come across anything definite about the green colour, but is interesting that the Wingnut Wings kit came out in 2012 and it displays only grey-green schemes, specially for the the Austrian Navy option:

http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/v888F0D9D/www/products/model_kitsets/32048/online_instructions/32048 Fokker E.III Late instructions.pdf

 

The most recent discussions over at the Aerodrome are from 2008, no clear answer ...

 

regards,

Jack

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Jack! I had completely forgotten about the WNW Eindecker kits so I'm grateful for the reminder and link, thank you.

 

The dope colour question seems to be up in the air (!) but there is plenty of useful food for thought generously available at the WNW site. 

 

Regards

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nick, glad to be of some help.

 

From what I gather over Aerodrome, it wasn't so much that existence of the green colour has been disqualified, but that the person that originated the idea has been known to have put forth information in the past to be completely fabricated.  In this case , he went as far as to dye a piece for cloth green and claim that it was original.

 

regards,

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks again Jack. Re that Aerodrome thread according to Martin O'Connor in part 2 of 'Markings and Camouflage of Austro Hungarian Aircraft in World War I', C&C (I) vol 17 no 2:

 

"Both Feldpilot Josef von Krasney and Linienschiffsleutnant Baron Gottfried Banfield unequivocally identified the color of the fabric of these aircraft as greyish Green 30 C 6."

 

That's a different colour to the infamous Gerrard fabric sample which was Methuen 30 E 6, a significantly darker green.

 

Even so 30 C 6 still seems a rather vibrant light green, not far off Munsell 2.5 GY 7/4 and very close to the BS 5252 colour 12 C 35 Green:-

 

http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS 5252&cRef=12 C 35

 

Regards

Nick

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks again Jack - and Dave.

 

I recall the Windsock article revealing the discoloured Austrian greys but I'm not sure that would apply to the Eindecker as the von Krasney and Banfield evidence of light green might suggest otherwise. But maybe the old Profile artist knew something too! 

 

There are photos of the mentioned Aviatik Berg in its "new" colours here:-

 

http://www.idflieg.com/aviatik-berg-di.htm

 

Nick

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just as an addendum, although Martin O'Connor cites Methuen 30 C 6 in his book, the 1989 Windsock Datafile on the E.III cites 30 C 8 from a fabric sample, even more of a lime green!  Maybe a typo crept in somewhere. The contemporaneous Fokker colour advertisement in the 2002 Datafile E.I/E.II book shows a duller looking grey-green but the book suggest the green colour is in doubt! 

 

Nick  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was just leafing through the Fokker Eindecker Compendium 2 by Josef Scott.  There is mention of possible green painted aircraft for the KuK Kriegsmarine, but no source given.  This description is from their no.15 profile illustration (p.51), but they decided to go with a CDL finish based on a private source photo.

 

regards,

Jack

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Nick,

 

just caught up with this thread as I'm currently building a WNW Fokker E.IV. I'm sure that the grey-green colour on Austro-Hungarian Eindeckers is speculative - but not impossible. Methuen call-outs of this based on fabric samples sound dubious - especially from the con-artist Gerrard. Also for me, having looked very hard through available photographic references on the type (Datafiles etc), is that the standard overall "beige" is load of old cobblers as well, for the large part. If you want to have an insight into German 1915-1916 camouflage look no further than Ian Huntley's article in Scale Aircraft Modelling 14 no.10 (July 1982) that drew mostly on French Intelligence reports. I had started a draft 'article' to go on the ww1aircraftmodels.com forum to accompany my model when finished (getting towards final assembly and decal-ling) but will pm it to you anyway.

 

Jack G - as for ships' paint on delicate fabric aircraft - come on!

 

Cheers

GrahamB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it really that outlandish as it sounds?

Research has shown that some late war seaplanes were covered with 'black bituminous tar based paint' to protect from salt water - granted this was on the floats and struts.  Obviously there was no concern from the added weight, but is this what is seen on the tails of the Hanriot floatplanes based at Dunkerque?

 

Delicate fabric, not the picture I have of war machines.  Again, it was just a suggestion, but if you have proof otherwise - great!

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All this talk of grey on Eindeckers is new on me - but it may go some way towards the radio Control Eindeckers of days gone by which have been in pale to medium grey. Often wondered where that idea came from so thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgive me if there was any confusion, but no, the subject I was addressing were those of the opening post - Austro-Hungarian Eindeckers, or more specifically those six sent to the K.u.K. Kriegsmarine.  

 

To make it clear a third time, no I have no proof, and it was put forward only as idea for discussion.

 

regards,

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It may not be all that outlandish to suggest that the paint (at least the pigment) used for ships could have been also used for aircraft. As I understand it, at that time a lot of paint was made up 'on the spot' from powdered pigment and a 'vehicle' which could be linseed oil, poppy oil, dope etc. so, if you wanted to paint an aircraft the same colour as a ship you would just take the pigment used in the ships paint and mix it with clear dope.

 

Olive green/greyish green is one of the simplest, easiest and cheapest colours to make up simply requiring yellow ochre (iron oxide) mixed with carbon black and then mixed with clear dope or other vehicle and it has the added benefit of being a reasonably good colour for camouflage and protecting linnen from degrading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, GrahamB said:

Hi Nick,

 

just caught up with this thread as I'm currently building a WNW Fokker E.IV. I'm sure that the grey-green colour on Austro-Hungarian Eindeckers is speculative - but not impossible. Methuen call-outs of this based on fabric samples sound dubious - especially from the con-artist Gerrard. Also for me, having looked very hard through available photographic references on the type (Datafiles etc), is that the standard overall "beige" is load of old cobblers as well, for the large part. If you want to have an insight into German 1915-1916 camouflage look no further than Ian Huntley's article in Scale Aircraft Modelling 14 no.10 (July 1982) that drew mostly on French Intelligence reports. I had started a draft 'article' to go on the ww1aircraftmodels.com forum to accompany my model when finished (getting towards final assembly and decal-ling) but will pm it to you anyway.

 

Cheers

GrahamB

 

Thanks Graham. I do have a complete run of SAM and that is another article I'd overlooked so thank you for steering me to it! I retrieved it and had a quick read through this morning but it warrants closer study. I have Methuen too so the colours quoted by Mr Huntley will mean something. And thank you also for the article via pm - very kind of you to share it.  

 

That earlier period of nascent air warfare 1914-16 is fascinating but doesn't seem so popular. Especially interesting are the early monoplanes but I was surprised to find no current Bristol M1.c in 1/72! Extraordinary!

 

Regards

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Nick Millman said:

 

Thanks Graham. I do have a complete run of SAM and that is another article I'd overlooked so thank you for steering me to it! I retrieved it and had a quick read through this morning but it warrants closer study. I have Methuen too so the colours quoted by Mr Huntley will mean something. And thank you also for the article via pm - very kind of you to share it.  

 

That earlier period of nascent air warfare 1914-16 is fascinating but doesn't seem so popular. Especially interesting are the early monoplanes but I was surprised to find no current Bristol M1.c in 1/72! Extraordinary!

 

Regards

Nick

Nick,

 

You undoubtedly already knew this, but CMR has had a revised  tooling resin M1C announced for quite a while, with decals and etched parts; while I never got the original release when it was available, I have seen one and it was a pretty nice kit. The stick and canvas guys are sure long overdue for a state of the art kitr of this very nasty-looking little spud!

Mike

 

P.S. I'm sure I join many others in the fraternity-brotherhood-pack, etc. in saying how much we appreciate your expertise and hard work concerning all things paint-related, an d sharing it so freely with the masses. BTW, thanks for the invite to the RAF-US Aircraft site- it is an outstanding reference!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Nick,

 

about the Huntley article - I had overlooked this one as well, as one can infer that it is literally about painted 'lozenge' patterns - per the 1917-1918 fabric versions. It is also fun as so many of the colours and Methuen call-outs can be achieved with simple black/white/yellow mixes - although you have to be aware that some model-paint blacks and supposed neutral greys (like a couple of Schminke inks that I've been experimenting with) have a touch of blue pigment in them; this means you can end up with a more greenish colour than expected, rather than an ochre-brown-beige.

 

Back to grey-green. It has been mooted several times that this may have been a variant of German feldgrau, applied as a coloured dope, paint, or even pre-dyed fabric. WnW offer it as a candidate for one of their Eindecker versions.

Cheers

GrahamB

 

PS re the blues and greys on Eindeckers - I don't think this has been pinned to any evidence other than the original combat reports and it obviously cannot be inferred from b/w photographs. However, as Huntley mentions, the French had captured blue-dyed rib-tapes stocks during this time and it is not impossible that some covering fabric was produced as well. By the end of their period in front-line surface pale blue paint may have been applied on under-surfaces as it was being painted on the Fokker D.II. During the 1915-1916 experimental schemes might have included some field-applied greys. We will probably never know.

Edited by GrahamB
added comment
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Nick,

 

You undoubtedly already knew this, but CMR has had a revised  tooling resin M1C announced for quite a while, with decals and etched parts; while I never got the original release when it was available, I have seen one and it was a pretty nice kit. The stick and canvas guys are sure long overdue for a state of the art kitr of this very nasty-looking little spud!

Mike

 

P.S. I'm sure I join many others in the fraternity-brotherhood-pack, etc. in saying how much we appreciate your expertise and hard work concerning all things paint-related, an d sharing it so freely with the masses. BTW, thanks for the invite to the RAF-US Aircraft site- it is an outstanding reference!

 

Thank you for that. I was aware of an older CMR kit but not a new one. I've never really got the hang of resin though and am a bit of a plastic luddite! I know there was an old Pegasus kit but it now seems very hard to find. I was surprised to find that there was no kit from the various Eastern European manufacturers offering some fairly obscure Great War subjects now. 

 

Thank you also for your very kind words about my contributions. I sometimes get the impression that they are unwelcome so your words are much appreciated, thanks!  

 

Regards

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, GrahamB said:

Hi Nick,

 

about the Huntley article - I had overlooked this one as well, as one can infer that it is literally about painted 'lozenge' patterns - per the 1917-1918 fabric versions. It is also fun as so many of the colours and Methuen call-outs can be achieved with simple black/white/yellow mixes - although you have to be aware that some model-paint blacks and supposed neutral greys (like a couple of Schminke inks that I've been experimenting with) have a touch of blue pigment in them; this means you can end up with a more greenish colour than expected, rather than an ochre-brown-beige.

 

Back to grey-green. It has been mooted several times that this may have been a variant of German feldgrau, applied as a coloured dope, paint, or even pre-dyed fabric. WnW offer it as a candidate for one of their Eindecker versions.

Cheers

GrahamB

 

PS re the blues and greys on Eindeckers - I don't think this has been pinned to any evidence other than the original combat reports and it obviously cannot be inferred from b/w photographs. However, as Huntley mentions, the French had captured blue-dyed rib-tapes stocks during this time and it is not impossible that some covering fabric was produced as well. By the end of their period in front-line surface pale blue paint may have been applied on under-surfaces as it was being painted on the Fokker D.II. During the 1915-1916 experimental schemes might have included some field-applied greys. We will probably never know.

 

Thanks for that. There are very few "pure" black pigments although recently a British company has developed a dense black material called 'Vantablack' which has 0.04% reflectivity (RAF Special Night varied from about 1 to 2.5% reflectivity). Traditional carbon black pigments which are not neutral tend to have either blue or red undertones. 

 

A grey-green dope, like that later applied to struts and metal panels seems logical. 

 

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...