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Lt. Norman Hanson's FAA Corsair


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Any pictures of his plane from the Invincible or was it Illustrious?I believe it was

side number Pa6? Maybe? I am picking up another Tamiya 1/72

Corsair, an F4U-1A and clipping the wings.---John

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Lieutenant Commander N J Hanson was CO of 1833 Squadron on Illustrious.  1833's aircraft were initially coded 6 or A6.  So his could have been 6P (there is a photo of 6A with both aft of the roundel, but that's a Mk.I during work-up), 6.P or A6.P.   I don't know which but would assume the first more likely. I would have assumed the CO's aircraft to be 6.A or A6.A but that's not reliable.  For 1945 they were altered to the letter Q on the tail and a three-figure number in the range 129-147 on the fuselage.  He would actually fly a wide range of aircraft depending upon availability and how they were ranged on the deck.

 

PS  There's a photo of 1833's Corsairs lined up, the first one is 130...  The number is carried above the wing, starting at about quarter-chord (as far as I can tell) and angled slightly down compared to the roundel.

Edited by Graham Boak
Number corrected to 130 from 150. Fortunately the discussion appears to have missed the error anyway, but better to have it corrected.
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Camouflaged.  The posting above appears to have lost some of my intent, so here's what I said but somehow lost.    The information came from the 2nd edition of Air Britain's Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm.  This included a photo of a Mk.I during the workup carrying the codes 5A aft of the roundel.  Yesterday afternoon Parcel Force delivered my copy of the third edition.  This contained the photo of the squadron's aircraft on Illustrious.

 

Invincible was not a name given to any British carrier during WW2.

 

In 1944 Hanson was not the CO of the unit, so probably wouldn't be carrying A at that time.

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By 1945 most of the Corsair`s would have been blue. The Mk.II`s were camouflaged in the Temperate Sea Scheme (US paints) us and the Mk.IV`s were oveall Sea Blue Gloss. 

Here is 115/X which is often associated with Hammy, but it is not clear if he was flying it on the day of his death;

Image result for corsair hammy grey

Here is a painting of his fateful last sortie, depicting 115/X;

Image result for corsair hammy grey

Another painting of 115/X;

Related image

And a colour side view;

Image result for corsair hammy grey

 

And here is how the camouflaged Corsair Mk.II`s looked while wearing British Pacific Fleet markings;

Image result for corsair hammy grey

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers

           Tony

 

 

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1833 Squadron is not listed as having had Mk.IVs in "Squadrons": it might be worthwhile ploughing through the serials in "FAA Aircraft" to see if any were allocated.  A quick scan finds plenty of references to Formidable but if there are any to Illustrious or Victorious I missed them - it was a very quick scan but there was no problem seeing Formidable.  (115/X was a Formidable aircraft.)  Most of the Mk.IVs were not delivered in time to reach the BPF squadrons.  The lower picture above is of a camouflaged 1834 Sq Mk.II from Victorious at the same time, but with the codes carried differently to those in "Squadrons" (3rd edition).

 

As a separate matter, the serial for the above aircraft is given as JT633, but to me it looks more like JT653 in the photo above.  No history is known for JT653 in 1945, so this may be a case of mistaken identities somewhere down the line.  Or do other people read this as JT633?

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Hi guys, I did some research into Norman Hansons corsair and was fortunate to meet his daughter who was able to show me his personal photo album and log book. Is there a particular aircraft you're interested in? As Graham has said he flew several. I made one a few years back: 

 

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There's an entire worm farm devoted to the marking's carried on Gray's last mission.  Best not to get involved in this thread - delve for earlier ones if you are interested.

 

Nick's model shows it during actions in the Indian Ocean.  It collided with a truck whilst taxying at Trincomalee (S/Lt Ritchie) 27.12.44.  Category LX (light damage) but no further data.

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10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The number is carried above the wing, starting at about quarter-chord (as far as I can tell) and angled slightly down compared to the roundel.

 

Interesting point (if you are of a sad anoraky disposition) that you make there regarding the slightly differing alignments of code and roundel-and-bars.  It seem to be been a common feature of FAA Corsairs throughout the war for the code to be aligned with the panel line running from behind the cockpit to the tailplane, as visible in Tony's shot of JT633 ( where roundel-and-bars, code and even serial block all seem to align with it).  In the case of "130" on p.285 of FAA Squadrons 3rd Ed, I think the code is aligned with the fuselage datum but the roundel-and-bars with the panel line.

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Sad anoraky maybe, but if you are looking to model a particular aircraft it's a clearly distinguishable feature of these aircraft.  Possibly this squadron - it's certainly not unknown to have each unit on a carrier bearing some feature to distinguish it from its rival.

 

Returning the matter of Mk.IVs, I suspect that had there been another BPF deployment all the Corsairs on the carriers would have been Mk.IVs, as there were certainly enough new ones in Australia.

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Sorry,.....half asleep this morning on meds,........ I read Hammy Grey,..... not Norman Hanson,...... so please ignore my comments! Doh!

 

Tony

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43 minutes ago, tonyot said:

By 1945 most of the Corsair`s would have been blue.

 

Think I'd need to do more research before accepting that, even as a statement of the position at VJ Day.  As you say, Mark IIs were delivered in TSS and Mark IVs in Sea Blue Gloss (SBG).  Can agree with you that by 1945 SBG Corsair IVs would have been flooding down the supply chain.  As to the front line,  Formidable received Mark IVs and all the newly equipped Light Fleets, which arrived just too late to see combat.  But I'm not without further research convinced that the majority of frontline Corsairs were Mark IVs "by 1945": the 3-digit side numbers were not introduced until December 1944 and there are plenty of photos of Corsairs wearing those.  Perhaps the supreme arbiter, Mr Gazeley, will pronounce.

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58 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

1833 Squadron is not listed as having had Mk.IVs in "Squadrons": it might be worthwhile ploughing through the serials in "FAA Aircraft" to see if any were allocated.  A quick scan finds plenty of references to Formidable but if there are any to Illustrious or Victorious I missed them - it was a very quick scan but there was no problem seeing Formidable.  (115/X was a Formidable aircraft.)  Most of the Mk.IVs were not delivered in time to reach the BPF squadrons.  The lower picture above is of a camouflaged 1834 Sq Mk.II from Victorious at the same time, but with the codes carried differently to those in "Squadrons" (3rd edition).

 

As a separate matter, the serial for the above aircraft is given as JT633, but to me it looks more like JT653 in the photo above.  No history is known for JT653 in 1945, so this may be a case of mistaken identities somewhere down the line.  Or do other people read this as JT633?

IanG may be along in abit to correct me but I believe 1830 and 1833 did recieve some MkIV's and one of the BPF videos on youtube does show some on deck. Haven't got a link to hand at the moment.

 

This is JT228 and was the COs aircraft when the sqn was in the US and in the UK, Norman Hanson flew it a couple of times. Xtradecal have a set for it. 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205016115

 

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24 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Sad anoraky maybe, but if you are looking to model a particular aircraft it's a clearly distinguishable feature of these aircraft.  Possibly this squadron - it's certainly not unknown to have each unit on a carrier bearing some feature to distinguish it from its rival.

 

 

Aligning the codes with the panel line goes way back to the earliest days of FAA Corsairs: see for example Corsair I JT158 9L of 1834 Sq July 1943 on page 287 of FAA Sqs, 3rd Ed.  It's not an invariable feature but a common one: I'm inclined to believe it resulted from the painter using a convenient nearby straight line for alignment.  I had not noticed till this discussion that the ROYAL NAVY titles and serials on Mark IVs invariably seem to be aligned with this panel line: Corsair IV 118/B of 1851 Sq Feb 46 (ibid, p. 299) illustrates the point particularly well.  Flicking through the photos of 18xx range Squadron Corsair IVs in FAA Sqs, there seems little consistency in the alignment of the roundels-and-bars and the code letters eg 118/B (p.299) has both aligned on the fuselage datum while KD345 116/A of 1850 Sq, late 1945 (p.298) has code aligned with datum and roundel-and-bars with panel line.  I'm inclined to think it came down to the whim of the painter: it's a bit too subtle to adopt consciously as a squadron identifier. 

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1 hour ago, 85sqn said:

Hi guys, I did some research into Norman Hansons corsair and was fortunate to meet his daughter who was able to show me his personal photo album and log book. Is there a particular aircraft you're interested in? As Graham has said he flew several. I made one a few years back: 

 

 

What I find especially interesting in the images of your excellent model is how the appearance of the colour on the under surface changes from photo to photo seemingly more than the upper surface. From almost grey, through Sky-like to a definite pale blueish-green.

 

There is a lesson there.

 

As a matter of interest what colour did you apply? 

 

Nick

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Nick, 

 

The paint was Xtracrylix Sky. I think the white balance on the camera has changed a couple of times or a difference in lighting between photos. In the future I 'll just use a white background.

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24 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

Nick, 

 

The paint was Xtracrylix Sky. I think the white balance on the camera has changed a couple of times or a difference in lighting between photos. In the future I 'll just use a white background.

 

Thanks! My post wasn't meant to be critical of your photos but just to draw attention to the fact that colour seen in colour photos is not always what it seems!

 

Regards

Nick

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The photo of 130/Q (and 141/Q) is also in the recent biography The Kamikaze Hunters, which judging from my local Smith's an hour ago, is a lot easier and cheaper to get hold of than the (superb) Air Britain book.  The caption simply refers to a British carrier.  For those not au fait with the detailed fixtures and fitting of HM's ships, you can make out the Q on the tail of aircraft 141, confirming it as Illustrious.

 

I don't have a close-up of the Corsair;s panel lines to hand, but the key feature of the code in this view is that it is (uniquely to this unit? this carrier?) painted well forward of the roundel.  I suspect it may well be aligned on another panel line rather than the aircraft's fuselage datum.

 

Re non-Formidable Mk.IVs.  The first batch KDxxx seem to have mainly gone to sea on Venerable, but Victorious had some as early as KD284.  Still no sign of any to 1830/1833/Illustrious, which may be a sign of a shortage of information (unlike Formidable) but remember that Illustrious was sent home early after battle damage and her units disbanded in theatre.  There may have been a few Mk.IVs but not many for that reason.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't have a close-up of the Corsair;s panel lines to hand, but the key feature of the code in this view is that it is (uniquely to this unit? this carrier?) painted well forward of the roundel.  I suspect it may well be aligned on another panel line rather than the aircraft's fuselage datum.

 

Ah, I misunderstood you.  The forward location of the code may be well be a unique squadron or carrier feature.  My ramblings were more about the alignment of codes in the traditional aft fuselage location, as illustrated in Tony's photo. 

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5 hours ago, Seahawk said:

 

Think I'd need to do more research before accepting that, even as a statement of the position at VJ Day.  As you say, Mark IIs were delivered in TSS and Mark IVs in Sea Blue Gloss (SBG).  Can agree with you that by 1945 SBG Corsair IVs would have been flooding down the supply chain.  As to the front line,  Formidable received Mark IVs and all the newly equipped Light Fleets, which arrived just too late to see combat.  But I'm not without further research convinced that the majority of frontline Corsairs were Mark IVs "by 1945": the 3-digit side numbers were not introduced until December 1944 and there are plenty of photos of Corsairs wearing those.  Perhaps the supreme arbiter, Mr Gazeley, will pronounce.

I did say `most',......not all!!

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if you are simply looking for any combination of code and serial for an 1833 aircraft in 1945, then JT528/143 will do.  There are others given in "FAA Aircraft of WW2" including JT642/141 which is presumably the aircraft in the photograph.  However, returning to your initial request, JT690/147, crashed on approach to land 24.1.45 (Operation Meridian I)  Lt. NS Hanson rescued by HMS Wessex.  Phew!  Got there in the end.

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6 hours ago, Johnv said:

I guess I am looking for an F4U-1A, Corsair Mk II, with camo and a Q like this. This is

supposedly Tom Owens on the Illustrious. Now to find the decals for

a Q Illustrious Corsair in 1/72nd scale.---John

 

Interesting, Dave O'Mally claims that is Hugh Pawson:

 

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/402/An-Illustrious-Hero.aspx

 

I've always thought it was interesting that the BPF bar covers the ROYAL NAVY in that photo.

 

Jim

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