Catching Pictures in the Air

[71chally]

On 29/05/2017 at 10:19 PM, TheBaron said:

I had another quick check on Gurgle to see if it threw up anyone else who'd tried using this kit to make a 'J' but it seems we're off the map on this one now. No-one to crib from. Abyss staring back etc.

 

I think my observations are accurate, in that the kit curve here matches the necessary curvature of the clamshell doors of a 'G', thus:

But not - unfortunately - the buck I'm making for a 'J' BT door peeking out from below it.

 

I'm frankly embarrassed at having missed this until now. There isn't, it has to be said, a great deal of information about the 'J' variants, either in print or online, and certainly none of the sources I've consulted mention the fuselage being widened at the rear to accommodate the new door design. That's not a valid excuse however for the penny taking so long to drop on this.

 

From the visual evidence then, I can only conclude (please correct me if I'm making a schoolboy error) that the fuselage was widened at least 2-3 stations back from where it joins the tail doors to nearly the main wing spar box, as part of the 'J' modification program.

 

I also feel embarrassed as I knew this, but hadn't followed closely enough that you hadn't.

 

There is another J build out in tinternet land and it suffers the issue that you have run into, will try and find it.

 

 

These shots demonstrate quite well how the fuselage maintains it's width aft of the rear spar.

 

One bit that looks really hard to get right with this conversion is the upper rear fuselage to tail curvature.

 

In case I've made other assumptions, have you seen this Tony, to my eyes (especially the second smaller pic) it seems to incorporate the rear fuselage as well as the tail

https://www.shapeways.com/product/QZVKEAPSU/fairchild-c-119j-quot-beaver-tail-quot-cargo-door-in-1-72

 

 

Edit,

Apologies when I first wrote this post I hadn't noticed some of the newer posts, looks like you've made a superb recovery Tony!

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by 71chally
last para

[TonyTiger66]

Just a quickie before I forget; not my idea really, but inspired by another BM chap, quite nearby, that's very good with foil  :

 

You were wondering about how to recreate the surface panel texture.

 

Once you've built and are happy with the BT etc...

 

Get thin foil, lay on existing fuselage textured areas, rub. Laminate newly textured foil over BT and other new bits?

 

Could work?

 

Best regards

TonyT

[bigbadbadge]

My word Tony.  That is some fine  work you have  done so far and I am sure a man of your talent will be able to sort out.  I like the idea of the home made vac former one day I willhave a go at making one of those.  

Keep going fella and may the force be with you. 

All the best 

Chris 

[Gondor44]

Your a braver man that I Gunga Din!

 

Saying that, I agree 100% with your course of action, no other option really

 

Gondor

[TheBaron]

16 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

I would vacform in order to get a more even thickness of plastic o Multi-titled One.

Cheers Martian. That explains it.

15 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

This is turning out into a epic of butchery, first the top area now the back end.

Wotch Simon. Only the front and wings left to go then, then it'll be an RFI of Wonder Woman's invisible plane....

15 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

The oven plunge turned out surprisingly well. Nevertheless I can't help thinking that Martian is right with vac-forming. It would produce nice strong parts fit for detailing.

 

Do you have some spare wood, an old vacuum cleaner and hose? Now the soldering barrier is well and truly broken and the lathe acquired, it could be time to introduce a home made vac-former to the mix ?

 

Well done on the slicing again: much bravery !

I'm picking up slight hints that the audience here are for vacforming TT.*

 

I'm not brave. People who do Mach 2 kits are brave.

 

*That is to say, in favour of the vacforming process itself, not of producing a range of vacform TonyTigers...

15 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

Cripes I'm away for a day and you've literally re-invented the wheel, in a manner of speaking. Glad you're goin for it, and to paraphrase an obnoxious corporate soundbite, but nevertheless appropriate, "turning a crisis into an opportunity". Seriously though good stuff and like the "up and at em" approach. Also larger fuselage means more super detailing muhahaha

See what happens when you leave Tomo? I suppose it's no good me trying the 'somebody must have broken in and done that while I was out' line...

14 hours ago, limeypilot said:

I would think plunge/vac moulding of the rear end will be far simpler than correcting the floor and roof panels too, I'll be interested to see how you decide to go about that.

I had at one point considered the wisdom of cutting and splicing the kit moulding at the rear Ian, but with the disparity in shape between the two variants, it looked a bit of a non-runner in terms of a finished look.

 

I too will be interested to see how this pans out!

14 hours ago, perdu said:

I built one very cheaply

You had me at the word 'cheaply'...many thanks for that invaluable show and tell Bill.

 

13 hours ago, 71chally said:

I also feel embarrassed as I knew this, but hadn't followed closely enough that you hadn't.

Fear nought James - I is to blame for not picking up on the discrepancy sooner and nobody else.

13 hours ago, 71chally said:

One bit that looks really hard to get right with this conversion is the upper rear fuselage to tail curvature.

Producing a curve simultaneously in three-dimensions - what could possibly go wrong? 

 

That Shapeways conversion looks a rather odd structure - I can't help thinking it would make the finished build look like one of those deep-sea fish whose intestines have exploded out of its backside after being brought to the surface too rapidly...

 

As to the complexity of that upper region; if someone back in the Neoilithic could shape such an axe-head without access to our toolsets:

I can at least try for such grace of form myself.

 

13 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

Get thin foil, lay on existing fuselage textured areas, rub. Laminate newly textured foil over BT and other new bits?

 

Could work?

Brilliant TT. How could have missed that trick? 

13 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

I like the idea of the home made vac former one day I willhave a go at making one of those.  

Keep going fella and may the force be with you. 

Thanks Chris. It can't hurt to have a try, and I'm nothing if not trying at times...

11 hours ago, Gondor44 said:

Your a braver man that I Gunga Din!

 

Saying that, I agree 100% with your course of action, no other option really

Cheers Gondor. Better Gunga Din than In da Bin.

As you say, no other option.

Or rather:

 

Overall then I'm detecting minute indications from those of you watching that vacforming represents a reasonable course of action to take at this juncture.

 

Vacforming it is!

 

Plastic prodding will therefore cease for a period whilst I rummage for the necessaries and knock something together. (Bill, thanks for the photo of yours btw).

 

Mrs B. is already concerned by my uncharacteristic interest in the hoover...

 

I am somewhat stoked at this rad new direction in the build.

 

Laters gnarly dudes.

Baron Slabsides

 

 

 

[71chally]

That Shapeways conversion is odd in that it seems to show two different approaches to the subject, the second picture seems to show it encompassing some of the aft fuselage upper structure.

 

You've really 'Apollo13'd' this one Tony, I would have just soaked the fuselage in boiling water and the inserted wedges in the aft centre line!

 

You can be the first to use the "failure is not an option" line for real!

[perdu]

Justva thought

 

"Producing a curve in three a dimensions"

 

You know that is why god (yours/his/anyone's) gave us the 'six inch, half round, second cut' don't you

 

The humble six inch file is a tool of infinite jest ... and infinite mercy

 

Get the plastic thick enough and begin sculpting

 

Lay in stocks of PPP and Milliput to recurve any slight off track moments

 

Bob is then, your auntie's hubby

 

Simples..

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

As to the complexity of that upper region; if someone back in the Neoilithic could shape such an axe-head without access to our toolsets:

I can at least try for such grace of form myself.

 

 

Wait, I'm confused; you mean neolithic hand-axes were vac-formed?  Respect to stone-age-boy

[qn30jEkPz7]

4 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

Wait, I'm confused; you mean neolithic hand-axes were vac-formed?  Respect to stone-age-boy

 

Fred Flintsone probably cobbled one up with a retired mammoth hoover providing suction

[TheBaron]

4 hours ago, 71chally said:

 

You can be the first to use the "failure is not an option" line for real!

Or of course fail.

 

Wait.

 

I just said that wasn't an option...

 

4 hours ago, perdu said:

You know that is why god (yours/his/anyone's) gave us the 'six inch, half round, second cut' don't you

I wasn't aware that such a thing existed until I looked it up Bill; not very manly I know. One on the list now. 

 

PPP and Milliput we have in spades.

 

4 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

Wait, I'm confused; you mean neolithic hand-axes were vac-formed?  

The secret was sadly lost to Europe with the catastrophic flooding of Doggerland.

 

Only in comparatively recent times were modellers saved from having to pull pig-bladders tightly around the form they wanted to copy and then harden it off with boiled trotter-glue by the fire. The modeller-monk St. Cuthbert de Humbrol fortuitously rediscovered the original Alexandrean manuscript in the library of Abbot Suger at Saint Denis. 

 

This episode was famously plagiarized by Umberto Eco in the climax of his holy horticulture whodunnit The Gnome with the Hose...

 

6 minutes ago, LostCosmonauts said:

 

Fred Flintsone probably cobbled one up with a retired mammoth hoover providing suction

Photo or it didn't happen.

 

No plastic tonight, just wood:

That's the oversize Tetley teabag for the top done now thank gawd. Base and upper frame to do tomorrow. That is if the youngest Baronlet has completed his Viking shield:

It's getting crowded in there...

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[qn30jEkPz7]

32 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

Photo or it didn't happen.

 

https://goo.gl/images/Gyo315

 

Of course, when Fred was working on this the styrene of your model was still algae and plesiosaurs settling onto the seabed soon to become kerogen

[perdu]

I regret

 

 

 

 

I have to say this

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Ooh arr I likes the cut of your..."

 

In finest West Country Pirate please, dialect is vital

 

I admire the young Baronlet getting stuck in too

 

And that 'baseplate' looks familiar but waaayyy tidier than mine

 

 

Oh yes, when you assemble the box make sure the baseplate has a few 'legs' to stop it bending towards the bottom of said box

 

Experience tha knows 

Edited May 31, 2017 by perdu

[71chally]

Like that shed, just needs a pot bellied stove, or pig, whatever generates the most heat.

 

Good to see the younguns in the support role, have visions of you in a smoking jacket adding painterly finesse to models, while a team of pale skinned young workers with fags hanging from their mouths work from a shed, equipped with nowt but wood saws and mallets knock out adjust tools and modify plastic kits.

 

Seriously, great to see this stuff being made to get over the various hurdles of model making!

 

 

[TonyTiger66]

The vac-form equipment is underway. Great stuff  !

 

I like your comment regarding Mrs. B .

 

I really do try to put myself in the shoes of 'significant others'.

 

They really never know what to expect next do they? There we are, seemingly quietly building a small, innocuous plastic kit.

 

Then oddness occurs. Lathes arrive. The sound of electric motors whirring, compressors firing up. Face masks. Gloves. The smell of burning. Blowtorches. Drilling. Strange behaviours like popping the meat packaging in the oven *with* the roast, then taking it out quickly, running with it then plunging a bit of wood in it and smiling, contentedly at the odd shaped result of stretched meat tray.

 

Now, of course, drilling, sawing, furtive procurement of the vacuum cleaner, the smell of singed plastic and sporadic firing up of the hoover.

 

There's really nothing vaguely normal about this hobby is there?

 

 

 

TT

 

 

[Gondor44]

3 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

The vac-form equipment is underway. Great stuff  !

 

I like your comment regarding Mrs. B .

 

I really do try to put myself in the shoes of 'significant others'.

 

They really never know what to expect next do they? There we are, seemingly quietly building a small, innocuous plastic kit.

 

Then oddness occurs. Lathes arrive. The sound of electric motors whirring, compressors firing up. Face masks. Gloves. The smell of burning. Blowtorches. Drilling. Strange behaviours like popping the meat packaging in the oven *with* the roast, then taking it out quickly, running with it then plunging a bit of wood in it and smiling, contentedly at the odd shaped result of stretched meat tray.

 

Now, of course, drilling, sawing, furtive procurement of the vacuum cleaner, the smell of singed plastic and sporadic firing up of the hoover.

 

There's really nothing vaguely normal about this hobby is there?

 

 

 

TT

 

 

 

Define Normal!

 

Gondor

[TheBaron]

2 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said:

Of course, when Fred was working on this the styrene of your model was still algae and plesiosaurs settling onto the seabed soon to become kerogen

This comes dangerously close to placing modelling at the pinnacle of evolution LC: Stephen Jay Gould will be after you with the paleontological naughty stick...

2 hours ago, perdu said:

Oh yes, when you assemble the box make sure the baseplate has a few 'legs' to stop it bending towards the bottom of said box

 

Experience tha knows

Ta Dad. That's good to know. 

 

If I can get some wood glue tomorrow I hope to have it ready for a test by the weekend. I see Maplins do a cheapie hot air gun as well that might prove useful...

 

58 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Good to see the younguns in the support role, have visions of you in a smoking jacket adding painterly finesse to models, while a team of pale skinned young workers with fags hanging from their mouths work from a shed, equipped with nowt but wood saws and mallets knock out adjust tools and modify plastic kits.

My Instagram feed's been hacked again I see...

 

58 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Seriously, great to see this stuff being made to get over the various hurdles of model making!

 

 

27 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

The vac-form equipment is underway. Great stuff

No sense in hanging around on this, plus there's a real buzz from learning something new isn't there? Even if the first few attempts aren't great, that subsequent point later on where you sense you've at last 'got a feel' for the process can be supremely satisfying.

 

27 minutes ago, TonyTiger66 said:

They really never know what to expect next do they? There we are, seemingly quietly building a small, innocuous plastic kit.

 

Then oddness occurs. Lathes arrive. The sound of electric motors whirring, compressors firing up. Face masks. Gloves. The smell of burning. Blowtorches. Drilling. Strange behaviours like popping the meat packaging in the oven *with* the roast, then taking it out quickly, running with it then plunging a bit of wood in it and smiling, contentedly at the odd shaped result of stretched meat tray.

 

Now, of course, drilling, sawing, furtive procurement of the vacuum cleaner, the smell of singed plastic and sporadic firing up of the hoover.

 

There's really nothing vaguely normal about this hobby is there?

 A brilliant passage TT!

 

It is a distinct possibility that what we might regard as common-sense modelling activities on here, may, to our significant others, appear to indicate the commencement of aged eccentricity...

23 minutes ago, Gondor44 said:

 

Define Normal!

These are not normal times Gondor, not normal times at all....

 

 

[qn30jEkPz7]

I think a paleontological naughty stick is what Mary Anning's Victorian doctors advised for feminine hysteria. If Gould comes after me with that I'll report him to the authorities

[perdu]

Funny enoughly, I did intend advising a more controllable heat supply than a large butane gas torch with its inbuilt anarchical 'flame on - flame out' aptitude...

 

A Maplin Hot Air gun?

 

Simply ideal, I may pop across some time to borrow it 

[Spookytooth]

Come to that Tony and Bill, how about an electric fire element, must able to pick them up cheaply.

 

Simon.

[Tomoshenko]

I actually prefer the Mythbusters adage: "Failure is always an option", not in respect of a defeatist or fatalistic approach, but because we learn from mistakes and put things right which is happening before our eyes.

[keefr22]

2 hours ago, TonyTiger66 said:

The vac-form equipment is underway. Great stuff  !

 

I like your comment regarding Mrs. B .

 

I really do try to put myself in the shoes of 'significant others'.

 

They really never know what to expect next do they? There we are, seemingly quietly building a small, innocuous plastic kit.

 

Then oddness occurs. Lathes arrive. The sound of electric motors whirring, compressors firing up. Face masks. Gloves. The smell of burning. Blowtorches. Drilling. Strange behaviours like popping the meat packaging in the oven *with* the roast, then taking it out quickly, running with it then plunging a bit of wood in it and smiling, contentedly at the odd shaped result of stretched meat tray.

 

Now, of course, drilling, sawing, furtive procurement of the vacuum cleaner, the smell of singed plastic and sporadic firing up of the hoover.

 

There's really nothing vaguely normal about this hobby is there?

 

 

 

TT

 

 

 

Top candidate for post of the month there TT...!! 

 

Keith

[Nigel Heath]

Quote

Fred Flintsone probably cobbled one up with a retired mammoth hoover providing suction

 

Sounds like a set up that just might work. Now where can I find a functioning mammoth?

[qn30jEkPz7]

5 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

 

Sounds like a set up that just might work. Now where can I find a functioning mammoth?

 

There are attempts to reassemble the complete genome from frozen mammoths (individual nucleotides are probably about the same size as a 1/72 Westland Scout rotor head pin), put that into an elephant egg and then implant it into an elephant to carry which might be taking scratch building a bit too far

[The Spadgent]

 what the hey the what is going on in here?

I'm having a relax day pottering around the Villa on me holls and decide to have a quick five minutes on BM, ooh I wonder how Tony's build is going?

I didn't expect to find it cut in half and mid way through building a vacuform machine!  At least the canopy masking went according to plan. I wish you all the luck in the world kid. I'm off now to have a look at an old Greek castle. Looking forward to seeing that machine of yours in action.

 

Johnny sun bathe. 

[TheBaron]

21 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said:

I think a paleontological naughty stick is what Mary Anning's Victorian doctors advised for feminine hysteria.

That room of the Freud Museum must have been closed for decorating when we went! 

21 hours ago, perdu said:

A Maplin Hot Air gun?

 

Simply ideal, I may pop across some time to borrow it 

I'll have Seppings shake off the dust-sheets in the guest room over in the East Wing Bill and lay in an extra drum of Stilton. That hot air gun will come in handy for pre-warming the brandy snifters.

20 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

Come to that Tony and Bill, how about an electric fire element, must able to pick them up cheaply.

Possibly used as a kind of pulldown grill-hood like the pro-job here seems to have?

19 hours ago, Tomoshenko said:

I actually prefer the Mythbusters adage: "Failure is always an option", not in respect of a defeatist or fatalistic approach, but because we learn from mistakes and put things right which is happening before our eyes.

Very true.

18 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

Sounds like a set up that just might work. Now where can I find a functioning mammoth?

House of Lords.

12 hours ago, LostCosmonauts said:

 

There are attempts to reassemble the complete genome from frozen mammoths (individual nucleotides are probably about the same size as a 1/72 Westland Scout rotor head pin), put that into an elephant egg and then implant it into an elephant to carry which might be taking scratch building a bit too far

Within a decade I suspect people will be doing this on the Britgeneticmodeller forum and the RSPCA will have a nervous breakdown...

3 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

I didn't expect to find it cut in half and mid way through building a vacuform machine!

See? You leave the country and all hell breaks loose!

3 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

I'm off now to have a look at an old Greek castle.

Beware of Greeks bearing giftshops Johnny!

 

Bill: I took you at your word and added some scrap strengtheners around the centre region:

Although the plywood is pretty thick this should help if there's any warpage over time due to the use of heat. 

The only financial outlay involved on materials for this was a couple of quid for some 10mm batten in order to provide the necessary separation between upper and lower sections, otherwise it's just part of an old school desk and whatever scraps were left  laying around from building chicken houses.

As for the underside, I discovered upon closer inspection that the hose from our Dyson isn't a nice neat cylindrical shape, but incorporates a locking catch, which meant having to custom fashion a profile and adding a rubber collar made from cannibalized plumbing fittings:

Job done:

That'll sit now whilst I look into various framing options for holding the hot plastic in the oven and in place here.

 

Kind of nervous now to see if it all works as hoped, but want to let that wood glue have a nice long cure first. 

Ciao bambinos.