Catching Pictures in the Air

[TheBaron]

6 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

I definitely plan to acquire a copy.

Great to hear - I feel quite evangelical about this book...

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence also!  This is turning into yet another build involving learning another new technique (plunge moulding). Nobody told me modelling would turn into a lifelong medieval guild apprenticeship....

7 hours ago, 71chally said:

 

Given that the Italian A/F operated a number of C-119Js, 

That reminded me to look for the decals for this and I haven't a baldy notion where I put the damn things...

 

4 hours ago, perdu said:

I'd make one mould block for the task, then plunge away the tops and bottoms and reverse the halves to make a single unit

That were my thought initially too Bill, however in printing out profiles to make card templates from, I discovered the fusealge cropss-section at the rear is only horizontally symmetrical, not vertical:

You can see in the contact print above that there's a greater degree of roundeness to the corner curve on the upper works, whereas the bottom profiule is less pronounced in terms of corner-curves. Once I looked back at the reference photos above I should have noticed that to begin with. Sudderfuddermudderrudder... Now I have to make both port and starboard sides.

 

Oh well.

 

T'would have been easier to be able to mate top and bottom along the very back of the BT but never mind.

 

Again using a contact print for the lateral profile, I continued (as you mentioned previously Bill) the existing curve of the fuselage out symmetrically to create the squid-beak that is the BT:

From measurements I worked out the the BT on the 'J' extends back by a third more than the stubby 'G', which IIRC at this scale took it from 30mm to 45mm.

 

Port cross-section cut out and offered up:

Squid-beak also:

Ah! @hendie - your post popped in just as I was writing this - and possibly saving me making a foolish mistake to boot! 

 

I've never ever ever done any plunge-moulding before - given what ye see of the shape of the rear doors, you reckon that will plunge as a single shape then (presumably if plunged from the very rear angled join forwards to where it opens out to join the fuselage)? Does that mean I can sellotape these back together again:

 

You'll have to excuse my abysmal engineering ignorance about the fillet/flap matter - but if I've understood your query then there's no actual split in the doors right at the back where top and bottom meet in the middle (like the beak of a bird). In the last of the two reference pictures above, you can just make out a ramp in the underside that opens up and inwards from the rear, whilst the whole tail-door structure itself tilts up as well. It's a two-stage affair, I think primarily to let the poles down at the required angle whilst allowing for maximum visibility backwards out of the aircraft when reeling in the captured payload.

 

I initially had the impression that the C-119 was responsible for a lot more successful recoveries of Corona capsules, but it wasn't in fact all that long before they transitioned to using C-130s, and their rigs, although similar in appearrance externally, were a whole lot more sophisticated on the inside. The C-119 system I'm building here was something of a legacy system from the Genetrix balloon program. There's a USAF interview with  Lt. Col. Mitchell (the pilot of Pelican 9) where he discusses these matters in greater detail:

http://www.nro.gov/foia/declass/WS117L_Records/129.PDF

 

As to chair size - it was definitely 'knees-up Mother Brown':

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-interior-of-the-twin-engine-tactical-transport-fairchild-c-119-flying-89497007.html

Being a fully kitted-out paratrooper cooped up with the rest of your stick on those deck chairs for any length of time, it must have been an uncomfortable enough postion to maintain that leaping out of the aircraft must have seemed like quite a relief...

 

As to that tail, it's a squid beak not a duck bill. Anyone'll tell you.

 

Oops, missed this when I hit 'post' Bill

16 minutes ago, perdu said:

I think there's a flat ramp which drops for loading in the beavery bit

 

It should certainly be possible to mould it as a single unit but the sides would be paper thin, that's why I suggest making a top and bottom, possibly using a flat additional sidewall to fair the ups and downs together

I think the pics above illustrate the reason why I started there on port/starboard, not top/bottom. The only thing that worries me about doing a single plunge mould is the length of that shape from back to front...would plasticard actually stretch that far before breaking/tearing? Like I said I've never tried the process and can only go on what I've seen others do for canopies...

 

No balsa wood to be found in this blighted locality so I may have to order some and it'll be a few days. At least there's the roof to be going on with.

 

[perdu]

Plasticard might not stretch so, but I do rather think that PETg clear plastic will

 

Fancy a sheet to practise with?

 

PETg is the stuff food manufacturers use to make those deep complex moulded cake covers for sale in stupor market's chiller cabinets

[perdu]

By the way

 

Plunge moulding is VERY easy, very

[TheBaron]

23 minutes ago, perdu said:

By the way

 

Plunge moulding is VERY easy, very

Appreciate the encouragement Bill and actually rather excited at the thought of trying this. Balsa ordered just now but it'll be a week or so arriving from a UK supplier so I've plenty to be getting on with.

 

Looks like I need to pop to Iceland to stock up on frozen gateaux in the meantime.

[Brandy]

I see 2 options: plunge moulding as suggested, or simply build it with flat sheet, add milliput inside the corners to give depth and a curved inner surface, then sand down the outside to get the curves needed.

 

Ian

Edited May 19, 2017 by limeypilot

[canberra kid]

There is some excellent work going on here Tony, a very interesting subject too, keep it up! Apropo nothing, I found this photo in one of my RB.57D files, it may be connected? 

John

[71chally]

 

2 hours ago, TheBaron said:

you can just make out a ramp in the underside that opens up and inwards from the rear, whilst the whole tail-door structure itself tilts up as well. It's a two-stage affair, I think primarily to let the poles down at the required angle whilst allowing for maximum visibility backwards out of the aircraft when reeling in the captured payload.

I don't think there is an integral ramp as such in the tail of the J, and the type was created before the satellite recoveries. 

The rear underside door is hinged at the rear and opens upwards into the roof of the tail, much like that of a Short Skyvan, however because the peak of the beaver tail is so low, the whole affair has also got to lift upwards enough for sufficient clearance for airborne bulky releases, such as supplies and vehicles. The idea was to provide an openable in flight cargo door, as opposed to the removable clam shell doors of the standard 119.

This in contrast to the Argosy, where the bottom of the beaver tail lowers to form a ramp.

 

Some nice footage of Js on the ground here, http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675032480_C-119F_C-119Fs-parked-at-air-base_C-119s-taxi_terminal-building

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by 71chally

[TheBaron]

52 minutes ago, canberra kid said:

There is some excellent work going on here Tony, a very interesting subject too, keep it up! Apropo nothing, I found this photo in one of my RB.57D files, it may be connected?

Hiya John! 

 

That is a most excellent period photo. There seems to have been a veritable obsession at the time with grabbing people in to the air from moving aircraft:

In the case of these capsule recovery missions, if it fell in the sea it could still be retrieved, by having frogmen place it in a raft:

 

48 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I don't think there is an integral ramp as such in the tail of the J

No that's quite right James - I've been dubiously referring to it as a ramp purely on visual grounds but it's not one, and performs no access function as you say. Any ideas what a better name might be? Knowing the military-industrial fondness for compound-nomenclature, I suspect something along the lines of: Retractable capsule acquisition and ingress panel...

That clip was excellent btw. Critical Past have some surprising material and I always find moving footage helps you gain a better sense of the physical and spatial regarding aircraft.

 

PS. I'm guessing you were well aware of  this some time ago:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-39960993

 

[71chally]

Unfortunately that set up is very much looming large over our jobs at the moment, going through a nasty phase right now as it happens.

[perdu]

Door

 

call it a door

 

You really did pick a good un here Tony

 

So much enjoyment in learning about the obscure for me, even at my advanced age

 

 

 

[Nigel Heath]

Quote

beavers flaps

 

Now that's surely got to get hendie banned. I think there were a few other dodgy phrases back there...What do I know...??

[Fritag]

Ok.  I've put the effort in and have now followed the arguments of my learned friends as to the BT.

 

I've done a fair bit of plunge moulding - and I'm also sceptical that you'll be able to do it one piece - again cos of the probable thinness of the walls - although the tapered shape may mitigate this.  No reason not to give it a go.

 

I'd  be tempted to plunge mould it in two sections - top and bottom - and then join em together like two halves of a vacform fuselage - the internal structure should provide plenty of support and you could always reinforce the sides with some thin (0.2 mm?) card.

 

I think you could probably make the master in one piece and try plunge moulding it in one go - and use the same master without modification to plunge  top and bottom halves as an alternative.

 

As Bill says it's an easy enough and enjoyable process 

Edited May 20, 2017 by Fritag

[perdu]

As m'learned friend alludes thin walls will occur if you try 'applying the plunge' in one go, however as I offered in everton PETg retains its stiffness even when it stretches very thinly

 

If you want a sheet of A4 , let me know

 

However as m'friend says I'd make it from a top and a bottom too, in plasticard 

 

Easier pickins sir, easier pickins

[TheBaron]

'Give me the power

-of man's red flower,

So I can be like y-....ah, there you are modellers, Good afternoon! 

16 hours ago, 71chally said:

Unfortunately that set up is very much looming large over our jobs at the moment, going through a nasty phase right now as it happens.

I hope that gets resolved in a non-draconian manner for you and your colleagues James. 

15 hours ago, perdu said:

Door

 

call it a door

 

You really did pick a good un here Tony

 

So much enjoyment in learning about the obscure for me, even at my advanced age

Ah'm reet glad it's giving such vicarious pleasure Bill. 'Two months and it'll be done' I told myself back in early March when we embarked on this. The worst thing is that the latter Hercules variants they moved on to for these satellite recoveries look even more attractively Ice Station Zebra-ish in nature....

14 hours ago, Nigel Heath said:

 

Now that's surely got to get hendie banned. I think there were a few other dodgy phrases back there...What do I know...??

Please don't try and raise the tone of the thread Nigel - there are two many miscreants here for it to work!

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

I've done a fair bit of plunge moulding - and I'm also sceptical that you'll be able to do it one piece - again cos of the probable thinness of the walls - although the tapered shape may mitigate this.  No reason not to give it a go.

 

I'd  be tempted to plunge mould it in two sections - top and bottom - and then join em together like two halves of a vacform fuselage - the internal structure should provide plenty of support and you could always reinforce the sides with some thin (0.2 mm?) card.

 

I think you could probably make the master in one piece and try plunge moulding it in one go - and use the same master without modification to plunge  top and bottom halves as an alternative.

Wotcha Steve! My thanks for those pearls of wisdom - you make the process seem eminently clear and straightforward. From what you say above, and from Bill's notes also I reckon it's sensible then to carve a balsa master as if plunging the whole thing, that way if it doesn't work out as a singleton, I can split the job into top and bottom moulds, rejoining along the lines you outline here.

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

As Bill says it's an easy enough and enjoyable process 

So is dentistry to a sadist. 

3 hours ago, perdu said:

If you want a sheet of A4 , let me know

Bill, I'm sorry I didn't pick up on your kind offer the first time around - the prospect of gateaux clouded my social antennae I expect. I'll have a rummage around home and work over the next few days and if I don't find any likely candidates, I'll be happy to take you up on that kindness.

 

3 hours ago, perdu said:

However as m'friend says I'd make it from a top and a bottom too, in plasticard 

 

Easier pickins sir, easier pickins

It'll be a week or so until the balsa gets here, so in In my current state of blissful ignorance I reckon a test with a triangle of wood and some plasticard might be prudent, just in order to get a feel for tolerances. 

 

Having a hiatus on the BT probably isn't a bad thing as it'll now force me to concentrate for the present then on outstanding building tasks for the cargo area, and have a general tidy-up to get it ready for primer and paint.

 

With that in mind I got down to business earlier on such matters. One thing which has been bugging the hell out of me is the fact that I wasn't happy with the port retrieval pole actuator - both in yaw and pitch it just didn't feel quite right. This hunch was confirmed when taking into  account where the various hinges and pivots for the BT mount to the fuselage wall. The collar that the pole slides into was about a mm too close to the wall, so I reckoned some drastic surgery was needed to avoid future complications. Out it came:

A new mounting built completely, and reinstalled:

From the photo you probably don't see much difference to what it looked like before, but trust me that's better now.

 

Once satisfied with that, attention swung to the derelict main roof, which needed some indicative detail down the main opening that I'd cut out some time back. Here I simply replicated the positions of the stations on the fuselage wall and added some cables:

...before belatedly realizing from reference shots both looking out from  - as well as into from outside - the back, that it wasn't that  straighforward.

 

Partly - as you've no doubt anticipated already - this results from the presence of the wing spar area, rather than just a continuation up and over of the existing fuslage stations. With no sufficiently illuminated shots at all for the whole length of Pelican 9's roof therefore, I settled on what was visible, plus the commoinest elements that showed up most in other contemporary photos of the 'J' interior.

 

To make the parallel fabric-like runs that go down the length of the opening on either side of the paratainer rail, I was rather taken with this wire and foil twist left over from something Italian and edible at Christmas:

Cut down into two 3mm strips, it answered rather nicely:

With some new cabling added, that's stylishly Italian now:

Adding the paratainer rail temporarily just to give you a hint of the final result (Albeit the wrong way up at the moment...):

Getting there:

Oooh, I'll have to sort out that nasty bow in the rail. That, as well as other bits like the ladder, sheaves etc etc. will be left off until after painting these regions, just to avoid making the painting any more complex.

 

It always feels better after a tidy-up doesn't it?

Tony

 

 

[perdu]

Hmm colour me sceptical about that Tony "It always feels better after a tidy-up doesn't it?"...

 

You sound sure enough but there's a Wasp model round here someplace which keeps kicking me in the... er, lets call it Lichfield for now not the goo...  every time I think a quick clean around was a good idea.

 

But I do take your point, when we scratchbuild there is always a time whereupon a recap is essential

 

That was why settling down for straightforward model assembly was so nice yesterday for me, planning was all done and the putting together was preordained sequences, lovely jubbly

 

As we wander so far off topic maybe I should drag it back, the sheet film I use to mould canopies and if necessary other shapes only cost me six quids in my local Art Supplies shop for an A1 sized sheet

 

My own local place does PETg too but I didn't know that when I bought it in a rush of experi-mentality, I think that was only six or seven too, online from the 'bay

 

Reason I'm bringing it up is with Old Erin being such an artist's paradise maybe you have a similar supply of stuff you thought difficult to get, just round a corner or three

 

And in, easily accessible to you, euros

 

Were I in your position I wouldn't bother with balsa either unless your physical situation precludes carving softwoods like deal

 

Normal workshop tools will handle pine easily and it will keep a shape better than balsa under stress

 

(I know this, how?)

 

Recapping, the roof looks nice and the hoist clampetts must be better if you like them

 

 

[The Spadgent]

Looking great. Are there any kit parts to this kit? 

 

keep it it up good buddy. 

 

Johnny Malbec gone.

[bigbadbadge]

Hi Tony. 

I hope you are well fella, I am having a rare evening off from work on the house (am now painting the three new bedrooms we now have upstairs), so I thought I would see what you lot are up too.  This is looking very nice some nice scratchwork and some plunge moulding to come and an interesting build.  I see I have a lot to catch up with and will take a proper look and catch up soon. I do have a model to post in RFI soontoo as I have been snaffling an hour or so on the odd evening to finish a build I have had on the go prior to the building work starting in ernest.

 

Take it easy and keep up the very good work 

Chris

[TheBaron]

Iss been a few days since I popped in here innit peeps? Nowt wrong or anything but life seems to be happening in such a way at present as to leave little headspace or mental energy to focus on plastic delicacies. That said, I don't like to leave replies unanswered so:

On 2017-5-20 at 3:47 PM, perdu said:

That was why settling down for straightforward model assembly was so nice yesterday for me, planning was all done and the putting together was preordained sequences, lovely jubbly

That sounds pretty cool to me Bill and I has envies.

On 2017-5-20 at 3:47 PM, perdu said:

Reason I'm bringing it up is with Old Erin being such an artist's paradise maybe you have a similar supply of stuff you thought difficult to get, just round a corner or three

Artists' paradise me bewtocks! Dublin and Cork are great, but beyond that if you want anything at all out of the ordinary here , the same types of shops all stock the same identical narrow range of items, often exorbitant in price. Overseas/online trading is a lifeline for modelling, as in so many other needs.

On 2017-5-20 at 3:47 PM, perdu said:

Normal workshop tools will handle pine easily and it will keep a shape better than balsa under stress

 

(I know this, how?)

That really is a top tip as I think I've a block of softwood sitting out  in the shed after my youngest's  carving obsession diminished a while back. I'll have a root around.

On 2017-5-20 at 7:43 PM, The Spadgent said:

Looking great. Are there any kit parts to this kit? 

Ah, that's what the box over there in the corner is! I believe my kit part to page ratio is currently down to negative indices...

17 hours ago, bigbadbadge said:

Take it easy and keep up the very good work 

Chris

Hiya Chris! Nice to hear from you! I hope the 1:1 house project is going OK for you: such matters do have a nasty habit of snowballing into bigger projects a bit like ..err...modelling, don't they? Are you using Tamiya or Vallejo for the bedrooms?

 

I've nothing photogenic enough to warrant a visual update at present; I'm slowly soldering up a sheave (overhead roller) for the rear of the roof. This was the bit that the crew used to haul the recovered film capsule up and over the rear lip of the aircraft. 0.4mm tube I find a bugger to solder into triangles at this scale with all three joins staying solid and at the correct angle. Nigel's use of hemostats seems to me an elegant and sensible investment to make next payday in order to assist in such tasks. Both triangles are now done with with mounting plates added, so I just need to dig out some suitable sprue to machine a roller from.

 

Completely out of the blue I woke up this morning with a raw throat, pounding head, and all the indications that yet another bout of the flu-like symptoms which have been decimating local sporting fixtures has decided to alight upon my carcass and push it to the floor. There seems an endless circuit of such bugs floating around, so much so that reality should sue Michael Crichton for plagiarism...

 

As a consequence I'm laid oop for the afternoon reading Norman Hanson's Carrier Pilot; this utterly shreds any lingering self-pity I might have felt at being ill.

 

I hope you guys are all doing OK out there.

Tony

[CedB]

Get well soon Tony  

Time to show the Baroness the video and have her practice the 'poor little bunny' treatment.

 

[perdu]

You know what they say," if ya gotta be ill bloody well enjoy it"

 

I have been enjoying a chest infection which made my cough a thing of wonder

 

as in I wonder if it will EVER stopppppppppp......

 

Off to doctor

 

"Hi Bill, yes you have a bad chest

 

No I don't know if it is viral or bacterial, here have a prescription for an antibiotic

 

by the way don't get  it filled yet, lets see if you get better without first"

 

I'm now a bit better and haven't had to take owt for it

 

But it was nice to chat with the doc, haven't seen him for a while...

 

 

 

[bigbadbadge]

Hi Tony sorry to hear that you are not very well.   Hope you get better soon.  I have been using a new range of Dulux and wickes modelling paints!!! Will be glad ito is all done and the arm ache fades and then crack on with some modelling in a purpose built room.  I can't wait.  

 

Get better soon 

 

All the best 

Chris 

[TheBaron]

5 hours ago, CedB said:

Get well soon Tony  

Time to show the Baroness the video and have her practice the 'poor little bunny' treatment.

 

Mr. B shown video. Physically impossible to comply with her response.

 

Loved that playlist it was part of btw Ced - much chuckling and lightened my afternoon no end. Thank-you!

 

4 hours ago, perdu said:

"Hi Bill, yes you have a bad chest

 

No I don't know if it is viral or bacterial, here have a prescription for an antibiotic

 

by the way don't get  it filled yet, lets see if you get better without first.

Who the hell did you see - Jesus? 

 

(That aside I'm glad to hear you're recovering Bill)

4 hours ago, perdu said:

But it was nice to chat with the doc, haven't seen him for a while...

I was chatting with a pal some time back and he mentioned how much more he tended to chat with his doctor now that he was a gentleman of advancing years, compared to his youth. I asked why he thought that might be and after moment of two replied: 'Dunno. Must be a shared interest in mortality...'

1 hour ago, bigbadbadge said:

Hi Tony sorry to hear that you are not very well.   Hope you get better soon.  I have been using a new range of Dulux and wickes modelling paints!!! Will be glad ito is all done and the arm ache fades and then crack on with some modelling in a purpose built room.  I can't wait.  

Thanks for the good wishes Chris. Likewise I hope that your take on the Sistine Chapel doesn't take you too long. Large parts of our place haven't been repainted since we moved in: with two teenage boys and sundry animals in and out of the premises the whole time, any pretence at 'bohemianism / shabby chic' can't be maintained much longer I fear....

 

Dosed with Lemsip and spirits revived by Ced's chuckle list, I couldn't let another night pass without having something to show ye, so to the bench, the cadmium and the plastic, and a determined effort to finish-off the rear ladder and sheaves. The by-now-obligatory photo of heat-traumatized Blutak:

From whence two triangles emerge:

0.4mm tubing and some scrap PE for the baseplates. The roller between them is just some sprue machined down, with some 3mm diameter plastic sheet punched-out for the ends. One fully assembled they pass a visual inspection when compared to the real thing:

There's a couple of smaller tringular braces that go across the struts on the real thing, but I haven't decided yet whether it's worth adding them here.

 

Finally, with the ladder trimmed-down and mounting holes drilled out, these were all mounted together onto the rear section of the ceiling:

A swine to get both of those pieces looking acceptable, but they should make the view in through the rear look a lot more interesting at the end:

 

This region will obviously be the other way up then of course:

Apart from reinstating some quilting around that, that's the rear ceiling done to match the main run completed earlier. A small region that took an inordinate amount of time to get into a reasonable shape, but given the fact that it frames the main view in from the back, important to get right. 

 

Next task I think is to attend to the cargo bulkhead and then pause to do a snag list of anything I might have overlooked in there so far.

 

Thanks for reading.

Tony

 

 

[Fritag]

Jeepers Tony.  Another Britmodeller 1/72 scale practitioner who can wield a soldering iron to magical effect.  I am feeling seriously under skilled.  I need to go to night school (do they still do night school these days?).....

Edited May 23, 2017 by Fritag

[hendie]

1 hour ago, Fritag said:

(do they still do night school these days?).....

 

only in the evenings I believe.

 

 

2 hours ago, TheBaron said:

 

 

Looking wonderful there Mr Baron.  A three square or a four square file in around those rungs will really tidy things up - you'd be surprised how little solder needs to remain in order to keep things nice and solid. The interior is going to be a thing of beauty

 

 

[CedB]

Wonderful stuff Tony, they look spot on

Apologies for sharing the 'Man Flu' video as part of a playlist, but now you know what my 'favourites' are... glad you enjoyed them!