303sqn Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 The first photograph is the P.50/I prototype. The second photograph is the nearly complete first pre-production P.50 airframe that was to be fitted with an 870 hp Gnome-Rhone 14Kirs fourteen cylinder double-row radial to serve as a development machine for the proposed P.50B variant. On the 2-3 September, five pre-production P.50 airframes in various stages of assembly were transferred from the W.P.1 plant to the motorcar factory on Czerniakowska Street. In 1940 they were taken by the Germans, destination unknown, presumably for scrapping. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrzeM Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) I'm watching this thread with great interest! Good idea with that Blenheim engine for the Kobuz (hobby falcon - it was the official name of the P.11g). Speaking about the engine of the P.11c variant, adding the pushrods in front of the cylinders is easy and greatly improves look of the model. You can make them from stretched sprue or wire. Kit propeller boss should be about 1 mm sanded on the rear (after removal of the prop blades). The area below the windshield, in front of the cockpit was not solid or "shelf" but open, containing the control panel and the compass. Like this: Interior should be silver, colour on this photo is innacurate museum protective paint of some kind. If you want go deeper into accuracy, wheel bosses should be bigger. Good luck with these old models of this beautiful and brave airplane! Edited March 10, 2017 by GrzeM 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Hi, Those machines: PZL P50 Jastrząb or even more Kobuz (P11 G) - are halfy mythological in some way. Sure knowledge on them is close to knowledge on monoceros and dragons...:). They were military machines and were subject of classified objects. Not by chance the prototype (P 50/I) was lost in September '39 by "friendly fire" of Polish AA.... The photo with Graff Ciano is only most likely photo of P50 (by elimination - what else it could be, if not P50?). I am thinking on construction both P 11 G and P 50 too. BTW - since my last Polish machines models I constructed some 20 years ago, I have not posted them yet on BM. They need some refreshing or even repairing. All are too much green instead of olive drab or khaki as they should be . In stash I have very poor short run injection model of P50, There is also some resin kit available. Which one you have? In stash I have just few more Polish machines like Żubr, Mewa, Lublin R VIII (all three by Broplan) and rather nice kit of PWS 26. I am thinking recently on doing mostly out of scratch RWD 9 in Spanish Republicans colours.... Happy modelling! J-W Edited March 10, 2017 by JWM correction 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdrianMF Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Some lovely kit improvements going on here! My only foray into using Kneadtite putty ended in disaster - I was trying to build up a fuselage with it - but for smaller stuff that you don't have to sand you seem to be getting it to work well. Looking forward to more! Regards, Adrian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, AdrianMF said: Some lovely kit improvements going on here! My only foray into using Kneadtite putty ended in disaster - I was trying to build up a fuselage with it - but for smaller stuff that you don't have to sand you seem to be getting it to work well. Looking forward to more! Regards, Adrian Adrian, I came to Kneadtite from using it to sculpt wargame miniatures, were it's all about just pushing the stuff around before it cures. It works well for that, but as you say, not a thing to try to sand. Ask me how I know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 hours ago, JWM said: Hi, Those machines: PZL P50 Jastrząb or even more Kobuz (P11 G) - are halfy mythological in some way. Sure knowledge on them is close to knowledge on monoceros and dragons...:). They were military machines and were subject of classified objects. Not by chance the prototype (P 50/I) was lost in September '39 by "friendly fire" of Polish AA.... The photo with Graff Ciano is only most likely photo of P50 (by elimination - what else it could be, if not P50?). I am thinking on construction both P 11 G and P 50 too. BTW - since my last Polish machines models I constructed some 20 years ago, I have not posted them yet on BM. They need some refreshing or even repairing. All are too much green instead of olive drab or khaki as they should be . In stash I have very poor short run injection model of P50, There is also some resin kit available. Which one you have? In stash I have just few more Polish machines like Żubr, Mewa, Lublin R VIII (all three by Broplan) and rather nice kit of PWS 26. I am thinking recently on doing mostly out of scratch RWD 9 in Spanish Republicans colours.... Happy modelling! J-W J-W, I love a bit of folklore on dragons - I grew up reading Beowulf! I have the Akkura kit of the P.50. The kit itself is not great - it looks like something Airfix might have done in the early 1960's. However, it was cheap (there are two in the box, and I paid about ten pounds for it!), available and the decals looks good (there are about five or six sets of pre-war Polish squadron insignia in there, which is great!). It resembles in shape and outline a lot of the pictures of the P.50 that are out there - or at least the version with the semi-bubble canopy and shorter fuselage using the Mercury engine! I have a set of plans, and the kit matches those plans very closely indeed. However, I cannot help wondering if this is because the kit was made from those plans, even if those plans don't match the aircraft! Subjects like this start to blur the lines between history and "what if" builds, and I know not everybody is entirely comfortable in this area. However, I'm not merely comfortable, but happy there, so I will build my P.50's and celebrate the fact that world-class fighter planes are not the exclusive preserve of the UK, US, Germany and Russia! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 On 08/03/2017 at 4:21 PM, JWM said: Mitch, The central struts of undercarridge of P11 and P24 (and P1,P6,P7,P8) are cables, not massive struts. This is a flaw of this kit. Here id photo from museum in Krakow: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_P.11#/media/File:PZLP11C_CURRENT.jpg The machine in museum has non original too small wheels, so do not be misleaded by this. Cheers Jerzy-Wojtek They are neither cables of rods. They were streamlined wires, i.e., flat in section, attached at one end to the apices of the V struts and at the other end to extension levers running across the fuselage. Only on the P.11 did they meet in the middle of the fuselage. On the P.24, and all other types, they ran from ankle to armpit crossing over each other just below the fuselage. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 On 06/03/2017 at 0:37 PM, Mitch K said: The wing for the C version needs a little bit of alteration. Although the P.11C could be fitted with four machine guns (two in the fuselage, two in the wings), in practice the wing-mounted guns were removed from the vast majority of airframes. The additional weapons reduced the already low top speed too far, and the extra firepower was of no value if the aircraft couldn't actually catch its targets. For the 'c' version of the P.11, provision was made for the installation of a pair of machine guns in the wings to supplement the pair in the fuselage. The P.11cs delivered to squadrons were armed with two 7.7 mm KM Wz 33 guns with 500 rounds per gun, in the fuselage. The ammunition, in steel link belts, being loaded in the sequence armour-piercing/incendiary/explosive. The two wing guns, with 300 rounds per gun, were to be installed during 1937 by service maintenance units. However, production of the guns fell seriously behind schedule and did not become available in quantity until the summer of 1938. By this time the P.50 Jastrząb prototype was approaching completion and the Department of Aeronautics concluded that it would not be worth spending on the P.11c and stopped the fitting of additional guns. At the outbreak of war only about 20% of the aircraft had been provided with four guns. On formation of the Pursuit Brigade during mobilisation in August 1939, the following are listed. 111 Eskadra, three four gun, nine two gun. 112 Eskadra, one four gun, five two-gun, four P.11a. 113 Eskadra, one four gun, four two-gun, five P.11a. 114 Eskadra one four-gun, seven two-gun, four P.11a. The wing guns were not liked by pilots as they affected the agility (rate of roll) of the aircraft. It is the belief of some, for this reason, that the wing guns had been removed from most aircraft in the September Campaign. They point to the absence of any P.11cs with wing guns in the photographs of wrecked and abandoned P.11s taken by German tourists that have turned up on auction sites. So you can ignore the depictions in profiles, model kits, etc., of guns sticking out of the wings. There are in fact only five examples that can be identified from photographs of P.11cs fitted with wing guns. The prototype P.11 / IV exhibited at the Paris Salon in 1934. The museum P11c. Number "2" serial number 8.63 with buzz code (underwing) 39-K (black) belonging to 121 Eskadra. Number "64" with buzz code 64T (black), serial number unknown belonging to 142 Eskadra, 19th June 1938. Often erroneously shown with the serial number 8.66, as is also number 66. The serial number 8.66 for 66 or 64 can be quickly discounted as 8.66 was assigned to the 3rd Air Regiment and crashed on the 7th May 1937 killing the 131 Eskadra pilot Lieutenant Włodzimierz Kujwski. 64 appears in two photographs taken on 19th June 1938 at a parade at Toruń. Frustratingly, most of the serial number is hidden by someone's head. It is possible to exclude some digits but not confirm what they are. Krzysztof Sikora [Mini Replika 59] is convinced that the serial number is 8.62. The recently released Modelmaker [D48057] decal sheet for Skalski's aircraft includes both 64 and 66 stating that 66 was flown by Skalski before the war until it suffered an engine failure. They use 8.62 as the serial number for 64 which I guess is as good as any. Number "9" with buzz code under wing 74-S (black), exhibited at the Kraowej Aviation Exhibition in Lvov in 1938, later with 161 Eskadra with winged-ermine emblem version, serial number unknown. P.11c exhibited at Milan Exhibition of Aviation in 1935 serial number unknown, probably the same airframe exhibited at WILIS in Stockholm in 1936, serial number 8.30. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 38 minutes ago, 303sqn said: They are neither cables of rods. They were streamlined wires, i.e., flat in section, attached at one end to the apices of the V struts and at the other end to extension levers running across the fuselage. Only on the P.11 did they meet in the middle of the fuselage. On the P.24, and all other types, they ran from ankle to armpit crossing over each other just below the fuselage. 303, this is what I meant, thanks! I don't have a picture other than lifting from a book and I don't want to post pictures like that. One book contains what looks like a factory plan or service manual drawing of what is in your second photo here. The drawing doesn't show that these are aerofoil sectioned, by the way, so that's a nice piece of extra data from you! "Rod" was the wrong word, but I was trying to make the distinction that they were a solid metal section, rather than a flexible cable, and whilst not exactly massive, are considerably thicker, stronger and more rigid that one might represent with the sort of rigging lines used to represent aerials or thin bracing wires. Thanks again. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 39 minutes ago, 303sqn said: For the 'c' version of the P.11, provision was made for the installation of a pair of machine guns in the wings to supplement the pair in the fuselage. The P.11cs delivered to squadrons were armed with two 7.7 mm KM Wz 33 guns with 500 rounds per gun, in the fuselage. The ammunition, in steel link belts, being loaded in the sequence armour-piercing/incendiary/explosive. The two wing guns, with 300 rounds per gun, were to be installed during 1937 by service maintenance units. However, production of the guns fell seriously behind schedule and did not become available in quantity until the summer of 1938. By this time the P.50 Jastrząb prototype was approaching completion and the Department of Aeronautics concluded that it would not be worth spending on the P.11c and stopped the fitting of additional guns. At the outbreak of war only about 20% of the aircraft had been provided with four guns. On formation of the Pursuit Brigade during mobilisation in August 1939, the following are listed. 111 Eskadra, three four gun, nine two gun. 112 Eskadra, one four gun, five two-gun, four P.11a. 113 Eskadra, one four gun, four two-gun, five P.11a. 114 Eskadra one four-gun, seven two-gun, four P.11a. The wing guns were not liked by pilots as they affected the agility (rate of roll) of the aircraft. It is the belief of some, for this reason, that the wing guns had been removed from most aircraft in the September Campaign. They point to the absence of any P.11cs with wing guns in the photographs of wrecked and abandoned P.11s taken by German tourists that have turned up on auction sites. So you can ignore the depictions in profiles, model kits, etc., of guns sticking out of the wings. There are in fact only five examples that can be identified from photographs of P.11cs fitted with wing guns. T No wing guns on mine! Stripping armament out for speed or manouverability seems to have been surprisingly common. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 MItch & "303" - as I said - I do not consider myself any expert on PZL... You proved, that I was right But you may se how tinny it is compared to u/c legs. Have a nice week-end full of modelling! J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaffajake Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Lovely to see the community coming together to throw incite into this build. I've certainly leart a lot about something quite interesting so thank you all! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jean Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Hi Mitch, do I discern an East European trend in the types of models you build? Pulawsky-winged aircraft are rather special to look at, so I fully support your choice. Absolutely great work so far! JR 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 47 minutes ago, jean said: Hi Mitch, do I discern an East European trend in the types of models you build? Pulawsky-winged aircraft are rather special to look at, so I fully support your choice. Absolutely great work so far! JR Just at the moment. The smaller air forces of the early war period and fighters of the late pre-war period are my favourites. Poland is just getting the treatment at the moment. Might be Belgium or the Netherlands next! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyTiger66 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) I'm following with interest . P 50 info too! I also have the Accura kit, open to the left of my bench, ready.... Like probably all those interested in the aircraft, I hoped to detail the very basic kit a little. If anyone could point me in the direction of a book with plans, or any other photos, I'd be very grateful. There are some very fascinating Polish aircraft, a fair few prototypes too, that make lovely subjects for models. Great progress here Mitch. Looking forward to seeing wings go on, and the scratch built canopy. One of my only 1/48 kits is the Mirage P11c. If I ever build it, I know now it is safest to remove the wing guns, use Aerofoil section rods, to paint the cockpit interior silver and make sure I fit pushrods! Really informative thread, thanks to all the contributors. It's becoming a 'how to' guide . Best regards TonyT Edited March 11, 2017 by TonyTiger66 Spelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) The PZL P.50 was a top shrouded in official secrecy. Photography was forbidden and it was not even allowed to be mentioned by the press. All the drawings and documentation for the P.49 Miś were burnt in the ovens of a Warsaw baker by the wife of the designer so it very likely that much of the P.50 material had a similar fate. All that survived the war were some provisional general-arrangement drawings and a handful of photographs, taken during the visit by Count Galeazzo Ciano the Italian Foreign Minister, showing small parts of the prototype. Nothing changed for decades until the early 2000's when a photograph taken in the autumn of 1939 turned up of some German soldiers and one of preproduction airframes moved to Czerniakowska. Around the same time a set of photographs taken at the same site were found in an exhibition about the occupation of Warsaw. They had been taken by a Roman Mazik in October 1939. He can been seen in one of the photographs. Some of these photographs were published in the Polish Magazine Model Hobby Nos 24 and 25 in 2005. There have been a number plans/interpretations published over the intervening decades, some better than others. There is recent publication by Andrzej Glass that covers the P.50 and some of the other contemporary projects. All Polish text but it has the Ciano photographs and some of the Roman Mazik photographs. Plans are probably the most accurate. http://www.jadarhobby.pl/wydawnictwo-zp-pkl05-pzl38-wilk-pzl50-jastrzab-prototypes-and-projects-p-44009.html Ardpol produced a resin model of the P.50 which is most like the prototype. Choroszy have models of the PZL P.45, PZL 62 and RWD 25 in their catalogue. Edited March 11, 2017 by 303sqn 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted March 24, 2017 Author Share Posted March 24, 2017 After a prime, it was on with the colours, the basic pale blue and olive drab, mixed from Tamiya acrylics and sprayed. A couple of coats of Klear protects the paint from fingermarks and helps the decal snug down. The matt bit on the wingtip is a result of a deep scratch needing a little TLC to fix. Although I said I wasn't going to, I succumbed and added some pushrods to the engine from stretched sprue. I've started with the decals, which are largely from the kit, with a few oddments from the spares box, and the underwing code numbers printed myself. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted March 24, 2017 Share Posted March 24, 2017 The asymmetrical national markings always mess with my head, not that I can get symmetrical ones to ever match up. I assume it was done to confound enemy pilots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted April 18, 2017 Author Share Posted April 18, 2017 Finally an update! All the decals are on, a mix of kit markings, home-printed and squadron markings from my PZL P.50 kits. Most of the detail painting is done now and just a few bits and pieces to finish and add. Plans of the PZL P.11 show a wireless aerial running from near the wingtips to the tip of the rudder. However, looking at a slew of photos, I can't see the aerial on any of the aircraft. Maybe radios were only fitted to squadron/flight leaders' aircraft? I actually found a photo of this aircraft, albeit crashed, and the aerial is absent. I suppose you could argue that somebody removed the wire, but why anyone would take the wire and leave both machine guns is beyond me! 170N / White 10 / 8.70 was an aircraft of 113 Eskadra, part of Pursuit Brigade and was the mount of Podporucnik (second Lieutenant/Pilot Officer) Hieronim Dudwał. Dudwał scored a total of four confirmed kills (plus two probable/damaged) during the Polish campaign. He escaped to Romania after the German takeover, and ultimately reached France. Here, he joined Groupe de Chasse II / 10 at Amiens, flying Bloch MB152’s. He was shot down and killed in June 1940, not adding to his list of successes while in French service. He was posthumously promoted to Porucnik (Lieutenant / Flying Officer) and awarded the Silver Cross of the Order Virtuti Militari. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303sqn Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 The radio wires can be seen in this film clip from March 1939. About 3 to 5 seconds in. Stills from the film can be found in a number of books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch K Posted April 20, 2017 Author Share Posted April 20, 2017 303, I've got a photo of 170N, and the aerial is definitely not visible on that picture. Whether is was removed, I can't say, but it definitely isn't there. It's a reasonably good photo, so I don't think it's lost in the fuzz/noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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