JWM Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Hi, I realized that I never saw any photos or profiles (painting schemes) of Soviet airplanes from invasion on Poland in September 1939. I mean - the true (or sure) one. I have an article on this topic from some German airplane magazine but there are photos which usually apears in other contexes. So I consider them as photos of certain types not certain machines. OK - in Polish edition of M.Maslov's book on Polikarpov R5 one profile is said to be from Poland, 1939, but in French edition of the same book, the same profile is decribed "Ukraine, 1936". Of course both could be true, but only "could". During 3 year some repairs and repaints must be done on machine with fabric cover. It is differently in case of machines from Winter War with Finland - there are some photos, but mostly done by Finns of captured Soviet machines. Anybody met or have some photos or profiles like that? Any serious publication was about it? It is said, but more is known about Nomonhan Incident in 1939... Cheers Jerzy-Wojtek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glatisant Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Yes,it seems to be a very neglected part of the events of September1939.I can't recall ever reading much about the Soviet invasion,never mind the aircraft involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I hope you get something on this, Sir. It is something I am interested in as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rav Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 I was looking for the same some time ago. I checked some Soviet and Russian books and websites about history of Soviet Aviation. There was something about the Spanish War, the Winter War and of course a lot about The Great Patriotic War. Nothing about (so successful, BTW) campaign in Poland. They are not proud of it... Therefore I think that any photos of Soviet airplanes invading Poland, if survived, are kept in secret Russian archives and are not to be published soon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallsBuster Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 12 hours ago, rav said: was looking for the same some time ago. I checked some Soviet and Russian books and websites about history of Soviet Aviation. There was something about the Spanish War, the Winter War and of course a lot about The Great Patriotic War. Nothing about (so successful, BTW) campaign in Poland. They are not proud of it... Therefore I think that any photos of Soviet airplanes invading Poland, if survived, are kept in secret Russian archives and are not to be published soon I am sorry, but this is absolutely incorrect. One needs to remember: - the length of RKKA's involvement in the campaign was very short. - there was not much fighting and, in fact, in most Soviet sources that campaign is not viewed as conflict at all; there's nothing to be proud of as there was no real fight, but there is no shame either. In general, the public view on the campaign is rather positive. - the availability of cameras to general public at the time was very limited, they were just too expensive at the time - and in the RKKA the soldiers were officially banned from having ones (the practice continued until late 80s BTW), all the photography on the premises of military bases of any kind was censored and in most cases, as you would see, the published photos would be connected to the relevant political departments... - the aviation resources used were coming from the Kiev and Byelorussian districts and operated mostly from their peace time bases, hence not particularly of interest to a war correspondent-more story is around the front line with the tanks etc... This is an easier and more credible explanation for the lack of photos, than some secret archives in the cellars somewhere. BTW there are dozens of publications of various views and values on the period in the Russian press, as well as plethora of published documents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rav Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 25 minutes ago, BallsBuster said: - the length of RKKA's involvement in the campaign was very short. Two weeks (17-30.09.1939). Not the shortest campaign in the history. Quote - there was not much fighting and, in fact, in most Soviet sources that campaign is not viewed as conflict at all; there's nothing to be proud of as there was no real fight, Battle of Wilno (Vilnius), 18-19.09, Battle of Grodno, 21-24.09, Battle of Szack (Shatsk), 29-30.09, Totally 1,475–3,000 killed or missing on Soviet side during the invasion. Soviets used 6 armies, about 650.000 troops, 4.700 tanks, 3.300 aircraft and it was not a conflict? German forces were just half of those as they attacked Poland. With such forces the Soviet could march all the way to the Rhine river. But they stopped at Bug as agreed with Hitler just a week before he started the war. Really, nothing to be proud of. Quote but there is no shame either. Well... About 2.500 Polish soldiers and policemen and hundreds of civilians were killed in September 1939 after they were captured by Soviets. Many times capitulation/evacuation agreements were immediately broken after Poles surrendered. Soviets happen to use false flag tactics and human shields. Most of the captured Polish officers (about 10.000) were murdered half year after the campaign near Katyń (totally over 21.700 victims including lower ranks and civilians). Russians confirmed their crime only 50 years later. Quote In general, the public view on the campaign is rather positive. I admit that Soviet propaganda was very successful over generations. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BallsBuster Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 3 hours ago, rav said: 3 hours ago, rav said: 3 hours ago, rav said: Well... About 2.500 Polish soldiers and policemen and hundreds of civilians were killed in September 1939 after they were captured by Soviets. Many times capitulation/evacuation agreements were immediately broken after Poles surrendered. Soviets happen to use false flag tactics and human shields. Most of the captured Polish officers (about 10.000) were murdered half year after the campaign near Katyń (totally over 21.700 victims including lower ranks and civilians). Russians confirmed their crime only 50 years Well... About 2.500 Polish soldiers and policemen and hundreds of civilians were killed in September 1939 after they were captured by Soviets. Many times capitulation/evacuation agreements were immediately broken after Poles surrendered. Soviets happen to use false flag tactics and human shields. Most of the captured Polish officers (about 10.000) were murdered half year after the campaign near Katyń (totally over 21.700 victims including lower ranks and civilians). Russians confirmed their crime only 50 years later. Two weeks (17-30.09.1939). Not the shortest campaign in the history. No, not the shortest, and although your dates are questionable the subject is fuzzy. The Soviet sources quote the final stage of hostile action between Sept 30 and Oct 5. On the 1st of October there was an engagement near the Vytyzke lake. Anyway, it has to be put into prospective and compared with the Khalkhin Gol conflict the same year or the Winter war of 1940. One should also remember that the contact with Germans was made on the 19th or 20th only two-three days after the start of troops movements. 3 hours ago, rav said: 3 hours ago, rav said: I admit that Soviet propaganda was very successful over generations. Battle of Wilno (Vilnius), 18-19.09, Battle of Grodno, 21-24.09, Battle of Szack (Shatsk), 29-30.09, Totally 1,475–3,000 killed or missing on Soviet side during the invasion. Soviets used 6 armies, about 650.000 troops, 4.700 tanks, 3.300 aircraft and it was not a conflict? German forces were just half of those as they attacked Poland. With such forces the Soviet could march all the way to the Rhine river. But they stopped at Bug as agreed with Hitler just a week before he started the war. Really, nothing to be proud of. and again, things should be put in prospective. From the soviet side, these were fairly minor engagements. As, in fact, they were not particularly big even in the standards of 1939 -compare it with Warsaw for example. Your data on losses is completely incorrect. The period reports indicate 737 KIA and 1862 wounded. The later research by Krivoshein puts the total number of KIA to 1773 and 2000 wounded; but this admittedly includes casualties of all causes i.e. traffic accidents, weapon discharges, illnesses etc. It also covers the period until Dec. Your data on troop quantities is also bogus. The Byelorussian district group had 200k and Kiev military district group around 265k troops. The mobilization was announced only around the 15th, so there were no more troops available. "Well... About 2.500 Polish soldiers and policemen and hundreds of civilians were killed in September 1939 after they were captured by Soviets. Many times capitulation/evacuation agreements were immediately broken after Poles surrendered. Soviets happen to use false flag tactics and human shields. Most of the captured Polish officers (about 10.000) were murdered half year after the campaign near Katyń (totally over 21.700 victims including lower ranks and civilians). Russians confirmed their crime only 50 years later." - And what this has to do to the point of the discussion? Or the issue in question? On the other note, those were very rough times, and do not forget that the Russians well remembered things like Szczypiorno, Tuscola and many others. There's not much of repentance from the Polish side noticeable. "I admit that Soviet propaganda was very successful over generations." As seems the brainwashing afterwards... the simple thing is just to have a look at the issue from more than one side, and suddenly the War of Northern Aggression turns into the Crusade Against Slavery. Anyways, I just tried to explain why there are very few photos from the Soviet side of that particular moment of history. In my view it is not because there are some conspiracies on hiding "the truth", or emotional restrictions. Very few photos were taken due to objective reasons. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jure Miljevic Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 Hello Probably hardly anything new to anyone, still ... Semeystvo samoletov R-5 book, published by Modelist-konstruktor mentions that according to Ukrainian Front documents on 17th September three out of nine SSS aircraft failed to return to their bases. Two had been eventually located, but the third one, R-5, was listed as missing. Authors of the book speculate this may have been R-5, shot down by P.11c, flown by Sub-Lieutenant T. Kos over Delyatin. It is a bit of a strech, but that could be R-5 from the front cover of Maslov's book, Jerzy-Wojtek mentioned in his original post. Even more speculative is a colour profile of R-Z, published in another Modelist-Konstruktor book Razvedchik i legkiy bombardirovchik R-Z. This profile shows R-Z from 6th LBAP, unit which also took part in September 1939 campaing in Poland. Its caption, however, is vague at best, as the time given is no more specific than the year of 1939. There is, of course, a front page of Don Greer's Tupolev SB in action by Squdron/Signal with two SBs, on a mission to bomb a railway station in Buczacz on 17th of September. No unit is given but it is mentioned, that Polish fighters shot down two SBs. Not much, but I hope it helps. May I suggest not to turn this topic into an exchange of accusations and counter-acusations? Cheers Jure 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Gents, please calm down a bit the historical discussion. It think it is leading nowhere, we never agree for sure. Not during discussion on this forum. We do not have chance for this. BTW - this is not a big difference whether it was 560 000 or 650 000 soldiers involved on Soviet side or 2000 versus 3000 victims. The fact is that this was a was, not peacefull operation, with all consequences. What I only wanted to ask was - are there any REAL photos and based on them colour profiles perhaps on machines which were involved in this invasion. For example - I wonder - were there any "fast identification" , like for example 29 years later in Czecholovakia Soviet and in general Warsaw Pact forces used double red belt around fuselage. During September 1939 over Poland Soviets could be sure that besides some remains of Polish airforces (very small after 17 th Sept) they will meet Germans, and because of this they could mark their airplanes in some more obvious way than just red stars. As I understood - not indication for such markings. So - any airplanes from 1939 based on airfields of Byelorussia or Ukraine is (very likely?) to be from invasion of Poland. Is it true? Cheers J-W. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 5, 2017 Author Share Posted March 5, 2017 Jure, thank you for your infos. I am doing right now R5 and still not sure - do some Mongolian from Nomonhan Incident (the only oportunity to do Mongalian airplane from about WWII time, perhaps) or do a Soviet from 1939 invasion on Poland... Cheers J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 On Wing Palette there is a Polikarpov R-5 Sh described: 12th ShAP, VVS of OKDVA, Serial: 5, Pilot - Ivanov N.N. Lazarevo airfield, August 1939. http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww15/o/395/1/1 "August '39" sounds like a possible for taking part in Polish Campaign, however - where is Lazerevo aifield? Is it any Byelorussian or Ukraine region? No success in googling this... Cheers J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 3 hours ago, JWM said: 12th ShAP, VVS of OKDVA, Serial: 5, Pilot - Ivanov N.N. Lazarevo airfield, August 1939. VVS OKDVA = Air Force of Far East Army Sorry, but this is way too far. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Dimmy. Many thanks. So this is not what I am looking for... BTW - I've got - DVA is for "Dalieko Vastochnoj Armii" (?), VVS - "Vojenno Vozdushnyje Sily" but what is "OK" for? Cheers J-W Edited March 6, 2017 by JWM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 Glad to help OKDVA = Osobaya Krasnoznamennaya Dal'nevostochnaya Armiya Looks as in English it will be Far East Special (Separate?) Army awarded by Order of Red Banner. By the way, I've found next profile for you: This is R-5 from 5th LBAP (Light Bomber Air Regiment). Source: A.Stepanov, "VVS RKKA in Polish campaign, 1939 / Unknown War" article from "Aviation History", 01-2001. Maybe this help you a little. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) Well, I found few more schemes from that article in slightly better quality. Here they are: 1. DI-6 from 14 ShAP 2. R-Z from 6 LBAP 3. SB from 4 DRE (Far Reconnaissance Unit) 4. R-5 from 5 LBAP Edited March 6, 2017 by Dimmy Pics links edited 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK4m Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Dimmy said: VVS OKDVA = Air Force of Far East Army Sorry, but this is way too far. Far from Poland, but is it close enough to fight above the Khalkhin-Gol? Cheers Michael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 16 minutes ago, KRK4m said: Far from Poland, but is it close enough to fight above the Khalkhin-Gol? Sure, it's their operational area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 This is interesting, as I've been trying to find out if the Kocherigin DI-6 ever participated in any actions. It appears that references to it fighting at Khalkin-Gol and in the Winter War are probably not true. If it did fight, or at least participate in the Polish 'operation' in 1939, then I would need to include it in the book on Soviet Second World War fighters that I'm currently writing (that's why I was researching it in the first place). Sorry, J-W, I don't mean to sidetrack your thread! Regards, Jason 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmy Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 That's right, Polish invasion was (most probably) the the only combat participation of DI-6 which were in use by 14th ShAP. During operations, 14 ShAP closely cooperated with Horse-Mechanized Group of Belorussian Front. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Dimmy - many thanks! The Di-6 is an unexpected bonus for me also, Jason! Do not worry. This is not a side kick of theme at all. I have it in stash since some "plus 10" years and it waits for some a bit interesting, non "in box "painting scheme. In net I found a lot of photos of destroyed them, taken in summer 1941 by Germans: http://aviarmor.net/aww2/_photo_aircraft/f_ussr/di-6/ So they were still on airfields (if not in air) on Byelorussian part of front, still - I mean in 1941. But for sure I will do this one from your profile, from September 1939. Many years I was counting on finding it from Nomonhan/Khalkin-Gol but I found in some article on this that events that Di-6 certainly were not there. Best reagards Jerzy-Wojtek 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Hi J-W, My Google-fu did locate an image of an I-16 reportedly destroyed by Polish forces but, for some reason, I can't link it cleanly to the forum and, sadly, the link doesn't work. Source website was "WW2inColor" but their advanced search also doesn't return the result (maybe I need to be registered as a user to access the search capabilities). Anyhoo...I simply Googled "Soviet aircraft Poland 1939" and one of the aircraft showed an I-16 that appeared to have completed a wheels-up landing. It wore the number '6' on the rudder outlined in white. I know this isn't much help but am providing it in case it's new to you. Cheers, Mark Edited March 7, 2017 by mhaselden 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimmy Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, mhaselden said: It wore the number '6' on the rudder outlined in white. There are two photos of that I-16 in S.V. Ivanov' book "I-16s of Stalin's Falcons pt.3" (c) 2001 and this plane is rather from Barbarossa 1941 Campaign (listed as German photos): 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 J-W, thank you for the link to those DI-6 photographs! All those Barbarossa victim photographs of the DI-6 are a surprise to me. On one photograph, I notice a DI-6 alongside a Polikarpov I-5, which at that time was a trainer (although it was later used as an emergency fighter-bomber before Moscow in late 1941). This might indicate that the DI-6 was still being used as a trainer at the start of Barbarossa. Interesting - I think I need to do more research on the DI-6. And I need to find another Amodel kit of the DI-6, as I lost mine long ago. Regards, Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Dimmy said: There are two photos of that I-16 in S.V. Ivanov' book "I-16s of Stalin's Falcons pt.3" (c) 2001 and this plane is rather from Barbarossa 1941 Campaign (listed as German photos): Hi Dimmy, The photo I saw was the top one of the 2 you provided so clearly it was incorrectly captioned by the website. I guess my Google-fu isn't as strong as I thought it was! Thanks for the clarification. Cheers, Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Jason, I noticed the I-5 there also. But I thought that they were only advanced trainers in 1941. There are also German photos of impossed to army passanger Polikarpov PR-5. ... Cheers J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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