Serious Help Needed - 3-toned P-38's?

[TheRealMrEd]

Hi noelh,

 

I was pondering the second color myself, wandering if perhaps some of the older "haze" paint from the F-4's was left over and tried on the fighters. But, I couldn't find any proof or speculation thereof.

 

Ed

[Antti_K]

5 hours ago, noelh said:

Yes indeed the nature of the airflow over an aerodynamic surface means that moisture will remain undisturbed because the airflow simply doesn't touch the surface.

 

Hello noelh,

are You quite sure about that? There is no vacuum around a wing (or any other part of the aircraft for that matter)? The turbulent flow touches the wing's surface just as the laminar flow.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

[MilneBay]

I believe it is called a boundary layer.

[JWM]

Now I realize, that we are self-suggested that from top  "it must be OD" (even if two shades of). But on wings it looks very similar to what is on tail, and on tail we alredy agree all (?) that it is Neutral Grey. What about the concept, that wings were also (like tail) partially overpainted with Neutral Grey? (or some darker grey shade  - but what would be the origin of paint if the shade was different than NG?). It looks like painting by a roll, BTW 

Cheers

J-W

 

[MilneBay]

I don't think we all are agreeing that it is NG. I'm certainly not.

[noelh]

6 hours ago, Antti_K said:

 

Hello noelh,

are You quite sure about that? There is no vacuum around a wing (or any other part of the aircraft for that matter)? The turbulent flow touches the wing's surface just as the laminar flow.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

As Milne Bay says. I'm referring to the boundary layer. Didn't want to get all technical not least because I barely understand it myself. But as in the example its effect is that moisture doesn't blow away in airflow as you might expect. I've also seen water droplets sit happily undisturbed on the rear part of a wing strut throughout a flight for the same reason. So the theory that the photos show a partially wet surfaces is plausible.

Edited March 6, 2017 by noelh

[old thumper]

Nice pictures. I don't know what has caused the wings to look as though they are in different shades of green but it is probably either fresh paint or weathering, the good news is that whatever caused it it can be replicated onto a model.

The grey on number 80's tail is probably muck blown back from the supercharger.

[Cookenbacher]

As just another guess to further muddy the waters, it may be the Medium green often seen applied as a disruptive pattern to Olive Drab aircraft around this time. Here's  link to a video taken in the Aleutians in 1942. Note that the B-17 has a similar effect caused by the Medium green on the aileron, and others on the wing and tail.

[Seawinder]

9 hours ago, JWM said:

Now I realize, that we are self-suggested that from top  "it must be OD" (even if two shades of). But on wings it looks very similar to what is on tail, and on tail we alredy agree all (?) that it is Neutral Grey. What about the concept, that wings were also (like tail) partially overpainted with Neutral Grey? (or some darker grey shade  - but what would be the origin of paint if the shade was different than NG?). It looks like painting by a roll, BTW 

Cheers

J-W

 

I'm certainly not agreeing that the paint on the forward wings is Neutral Gray, no matter what is on the tail. In the photo, you can see bits of the NG on the bottom of the engine nacelle aft of the spinner and on the nose. It's clearly gray and nothing like the IMHO obviously green shade on the wing.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Seawinder

[Seawinder]

45 minutes ago, Cookenbacher said:

As just another guess to further muddy the waters, it may be the Medium green often seen applied as a disruptive pattern to Olive Drab aircraft around this time. Here's  link to a video taken in the Aleutians in 1942. Note that the B-17 has a similar effect caused by the Medium green on the aileron, and others on the wing and tail.

That occurred to me as well, but 1, it doesn't look like Medium Green as I understand the shade; 2, it's not applied in the round, spaced patches generally seen (the reason for the MG being to disrupt the visibility of the leading edge), and 3, I should think that would have been applied to more than just the one plane in the photo.

 

FWIW, the more I look at the photo(s), the harder time I have seeing this as anything other than field repaint of worn areas using some other batch of paint, likely something mixed by the unit's maintenance crew from what they had on hand.

[JWM]

21 minutes ago, Seawinder said:

I'm certainly not agreeing that the paint on the forward wings is Neutral Gray, no matter what is on the tail. In the photo, you can see bits of the NG on the bottom of the engine nacelle aft of the spinner and on the nose. It's clearly gray and nothing like the IMHO obviously green shade on the wing.

Just to clarify - I think that it is Olive Drab on the leading edge area of outer parts of wing and on entire top of wing (between booms(, nose ,, engine etc..) , but NG is what I suspect in trailing part of only outer parts of wing and on some areas of tail

[Seawinder]

2 hours ago, JWM said:

Just to clarify - I think that it is Olive Drab on the leading edge area of outer parts of wing and on entire top of wing (between booms(, nose ,, engine etc..) , but NG is what I suspect in trailing part of only outer parts of wing and on some areas of tail

Gotcha, but I'm still having a hard time seeing NG anywhere on the wing. The vertical tail areas of No. 80 certainly look gray, whether Neutral or something else.

[MilneBay]

Certain aspects of the pic like the relatively low position of the sun (the shadows on the aircraft suggest that they are flying towards the sun while it is low in the sky), the effect of boundary layer on a wing's surface etc. suggest to me that we are simply seeing aircraft soon after take off that are retaining dampness on the wing caused by the notoriously wet Aleutian climate. I suspect that if that pic had been taken an hour or so later the grey effect would have vanished.

 

See the dampness on the bottom of this parked C46 (not in the Aleutians but certainly OD/NG) -

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by MilneBay

[Garry c]

 The rudders certainly look wet, the port rudder much more than the starboard. The port rudder appears to be slightly grey except for the wet portion. The starboard rudder looks green with the wet part darker. The leading edges appear to be light green. My guess is that the grey effect is caused by the paint degrading and the light green leading edges are caused by thin paint due to abrasion from the harsh conditions.

 

Garry c

[Antti_K]

Hello Ed and all,

I searched my library and found a book called "P-38 in World War II Color" by Jeffrey E. Ethell. There is two full page colour photos of 54th Figter Squadron Lightnings pictured at Adak late 1942. They carry same kind of markings as in your photo but the national insignias are without bars. Planes "6", "76" and "8X" are visible.

 

It appears that some fluid has been "poured" over the booms creating an illusion of two tone camouflage.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

[TheRealMrEd]

Thanks Antti,

 

Just found a paperback copy of this book online for $3.00 US so, I ordered one to take a look. Thanks again for the heads up!

 

Ed

[georgeusa]

Not that I am not enjoying the different theories behind the coloring of the aircraft in the pictures, but I would assume whoever started the thread may be interested in reproducing the aircraft in question. If so, then regardless of what is causing the color differentiation, to reproduce it in model form, it seems like you would have to use at least two different shades of olive drab and maybe a couple of shades of grey. The picture exists, therefore an accurate representation of the picture would entail some shades of green and grey.  

[MilneBay]

On 3/6/2017 at 5:12 PM, Antti_K said:

 

Hello noelh,

are You quite sure about that? There is no vacuum around a wing (or any other part of the aircraft for that matter)? The turbulent flow touches the wing's surface just as the laminar flow.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

 

 

As I said it's possibly dampness retained as an artifact of the boundary layer. That is a very thin layer of air on the wings surface that is held there by friction essentially - the air that passes over the wing and generates lift actually flows across it. If the boundary layer is caused to separate from the wing you can get a very nasty lot of turbulence and a sudden stall as the lift (low pressure area) caused by the air flow is disrupted.

Edited March 8, 2017 by MilneBay

[old thumper]

5 hours ago, georgeusa said:

Not that I am not enjoying the different theories behind the coloring of the aircraft in the pictures, but I would assume whoever started the thread may be interested in reproducing the aircraft in question. If so, then regardless of what is causing the color differentiation, to reproduce it in model form, it seems like you would have to use at least two different shades of olive drab and maybe a couple of shades of grey. The picture exists, therefore an accurate representation of the picture would entail some shades of green and grey.  

 

I think this would make a very interesting model, and especially so if displayed alongside the original picture.  

A bit of mystery always catches the imagination.

[Antti_K]

1 hour ago, MilneBay said:

 

 

As I said it's possibly dampness retained as an artifact of the boundary layer. That is a very thin layer of air on the wings surface that is held there by friction essentially - the air that passes over the wing and generates lift actually flows across it. If the boundary layer is caused to separate from the wing you can get a very nasty lot of turbulence and a sudden stall as the lift (low pressure area) caused by the air flow is disrupted.

Hello MilneBay,

this is directly from the text book! I was wondering if this is the only explanation for different colours as Boundary Layer on a laminar flow wing is something like 0,3 mm thick and only in the lowest portion theoretically there is a zero air flow.

That's why I'm open to all theories - re-paint, partially polished, damp surfaces...

 

Best Regards,

Antti

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Looks like it's dried out in this pic

 

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/78742693458290883/

 

Jonners

[Graham Boak]

We seem to be recycling the same comments.

 

One new suggestion is that the gray on the tails may be exhaust from the turbochargers.  It is worth remembering that the way to get maximum range is to run the engines lean, and this leaves lead in the exhaust which leaves a light(ish) gray stain on the airframe.  As opposed to a black stain when the engine is run rich.  Supposedly this lesson was taught to P-38 units in the Pacific by Charles Lindberg, and the result was a significant improvement in combat radius.  It seems that the pilots up in Alaska had been paying more attention to their classes than their contemporaries in the Pacific.

[old thumper]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

We seem to be recycling the same comments.

 

One new suggestion is that the gray on the tails may be exhaust from the turbochargers.  

 

Ironically I mentioned that earlier in the topic. 

Many o/d P-38 pictures show a grey line across the tail, it looks more of a beige colour on nmf though.

[Graham Boak]

I know that you did - but it had been new when you said it, surrounded by people who clearly hadn't read the first page.  I wasn't claiming it as new for me, only adding the link to long-range operations.  I suspect the browner shade elsewhere is a sign of less emphasis on low revs high boost.  (That is the right way round, I think!)

Edited March 8, 2017 by Graham Boak

[iainpeden]

23 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Hello Ed and all,

I searched my library and found a book called "P-38 in World War II Color" by Jeffrey E. Ethell. There is two full page colour photos of 54th Figter Squadron Lightnings pictured at Adak late 1942. They carry same kind of markings as in your photo but the national insignias are without bars. Planes "6", "76" and "8X" are visible.

 

It appears that some fluid has been "poured" over the booms creating an illusion of two tone camouflage.

 

Best Regards,

Antti

De-icing fluid drying off?