Revell 1:350 Bismarck

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Hello guys. Within the next 4 months I'll be starting Revell's kit. My plan is to install lighting but I'm not clued up on lighting up scale models. If anyone has any tips, especially in terms of using fibre optics. 

 

Kind regards Adam

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Does anyone have any information on Bismarcks radar dishes? 

[thorfinn]

Here's a pretty good rundown of Bismarck's fire contol, both the radar and optical:

http://www.kbismarck.com/controltiri.html

(The site is a very nice resource, by the way, if you're not familiar with it.)

Good luck with your project!

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Thank you. I just needed to find out if they rotated as I'm thinking of experimenting and having active radar domes and propellers. 

 

[Dave Batt]

Many years ago in a previous life I built an r/c WW2 destroyer and in a fit of enthusiasm decided I wanted to put lights in her.  I wanted to remain true-to-scale so asked a few experts (historians, not pundits) on what I should do, and to be honest as I cast my mind back my ears have started burning again .  Lots of comments about 'wartime' and 'blackouts' etc.  I'm sure you get the picture.

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Thanks for the reply Dave. I think I'll be able to do it without many issues. It's mainly just understanding the best procedure to connect LED's and Fibre optics. I've found this book online which I believe may give me a lot more insight in Bismarcks finer details but I'm not 100%. I can't seem to find much information on light systems, I'd like to put the Navigation lights on it as well but I have no reference as to where they would actually be on the ship. I know Tirpitz is almost identical but I don't think it's good to use it as a reference. I'm no expert though. 

[LotusArenco]

Have a browse through this.

http://titanic-model.com/articles/titanic_fo_tutorial_120920.pdf

There’s a shed load of tutorials on the net, mainly for the Sci-Fi and railway lads, but the principles are fairly basic. Drill hole, add fibres, attach fibres to LED with heat-shrink, wire up resistor to LED, battery and switch. Bob’s yer Uncle.

Then hit Amazon or Ebay for components. As it’s all made in China it’s all dirt cheap. You don’t need to use ‘proper’ (expensive) fibre optic, the stuff you get from various kids night lights and ‘Light up hair extensions’ (10 for £3.50 on Amazon) will do. The cheap stuff is not as good, but not bad.

Amazon/Ebay will also provide you with those tiny little motors for your radars and screws.

For lighting up a 1/350 ship it might be better to drill out various portholes and windows and placing a LED behind. However optic cable would be ideal for navigation lights, as the cheap plasticy toy grade optics can be held close to a flame to ‘mushroom’ over the ends, giving a bulb like appearance.

I’m in the middle of adding some lighting and a motor to a 1/72 Mustang atm using very simple components. Red LED, green LED, Surface mount white LED, motor, resistors, reed switches and a 9v battery. Although, I’d suggest that unless you’re a brain surgeon, to keep away from surface mount LEDs. Trying to solder a 2mm wide component is no fun at all, and I made a right cock up of it.

 

Pop over to the ship modelling forums for Bismarck info. Lots of clever chaps with oodles of information. http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=4696

 

Mart

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Hello Mart, thanks for the reply. 

 

The article about titanic is an amazing thread. I've only had a quick glance and looks like It will do fine in helping me create what I'm after. I've got all the equipment needed on a wishlist on Amazon. Waiting to get the Limited Edition version with the photo etch already in the box. I've drawn up some circuit diagrams of the different areas I want to do. The porthole idea you suggested, I'd already had something in mind, I'm going to drill some of the bow and stern portholes and I'll attach fibre optics to them, my concept to blackout the LED's should help control excess glare. 

[LotusArenco]

Just be aware that unlike the Titanic, a WW2 battleship would have very subdued lighting if any at night, unless perhaps tied up at port or on home turf.

Resistors are also useful for knocking down the speed of motors (not the best way to do it, but works for me!).  A WW2 radar would rotate quite slowly (5 or so rpm?) so a gear system of some kind would probably be better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BiBg2eOT-I

 

 

Mart
 

[AdamLouiseModellers]

I'm only going to have about 4/5 lit up on either side so hopefully that should be more as to what they would of had. The radar is an issue in getting it to rotate slowly, especially given the confined space in which to allocate equipment. I'll come up with something haha. 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

The ship would have been dark at pretty much all times whether at sea or in port. The portholes have swivelling or hinged covers called deadlights (you can see where this is going) which would be used to cover all glass before any lights were turned on onboard.

[Dave Batt]

The story I was told was that ships' running lights would have been turned down so low (I believe they were on rheostats) that they could only have been seen from a couple of hundred yards.  Bearing in mind the old saw about a match being visible from two or three miles one can quesstimate what sort of wattage was involved.

 

On the matter of radar; just how many wartime radars had scanners that spun round-and-round like modern navigational systems?  What sort of speed was involved?

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Thanks for the reply guys. I'm questioning using lights in the portholes now haha. I may just stick to Nav and bridge lights. I'm guessing the bridge lights would be the only ones which didn't have a cover to mask it? 

 

 

I couldn't really tell you dave concerning the radar, I'm assuming that it would have been similar to today's systems but slightly slowing on revolutions. It does state that Bismarck had rotating radar but there's no more indepth information. I guess it's even harder given that it was a German ship so information would of been top secret, although I guess the Tirpitz is a better source but I do know they aren't 100% replicas as Tirpitz did have extra features. I suppose that would of been due to Bismarck sinking and them trying to prevent it again. I think it was a positive that Hitler didn't care so much for the navy otherwise it could of been a different outcome. 

[LotusArenco]

Have a butchers at the Youtube link I posted above, about the 55 second mark.

It’s an American ship, but the speed and rotation of the radars can be seen. You could make a good guestimate by pausing the video and timing the angles both of the actual radars and the screens on the interior shots (5 or 6rpm?).  

Just be aware that not all of then spun round, some of them would be slaved to the various armament. At 2 mins 50 sec, you can see two different types of radar going at different speeds.

Propeller shafts run up to 270rpm according to the kbismarck site. Total horse power of 150,170hp!

 

Will look cracking when you pull it off.

 

Mart

[LotusArenco]

Just had a flick through some of my Bismarck books. Seems the Bismarck’s radars were mounted onto, and coupled to, the fire control rangefinders. So I’m not sure whether they span round like the American ones, or only moved where the guns were pointing? 

Would have seen this earlier if I’d only bothered to look at the link thorfinn gave you. Doh!

Chaps with way more knowledge than I, will hopefully steer you in the right direction.

 

How about some sort of gear system tying the main guns to the rangefinders/radars. Connect that to a servo run off an Arduino and recreate the Battle of the Denmark Strait.

 

Mart
 

Edited March 5, 2017 by LotusArenco

[AdamLouiseModellers]

Hey Mart. 

 

I would of suspected that the radar would rotate otherwise she'd be limited to view, but I have noticed the aft radar is pointing aft so maybe they are stationary or do move with the guns. 

 

Thanks for the info on the propeller shift rotation, will help significantly. 

 

I've considered making the turrets operable but don't know if everything would fit in the model haha. I'm considering making a diorama with water effects but not 100% sure yet. 

 

Is the book you have the 3d illustrations book or a technical book? Would you be able to link it me? 

 

Adam, 

[LotusArenco]

3 hours ago, AdamLouiseModellers said:

Is the book you have the 3d illustrations book or a technical book?

Not entirely sure I need this lot for a 1/700 Tirpitz and Bismarck, but anyhoo..

 

 

From the kbismarck site ;

‘Each of these three posts mounted a rotating dome with an optical rangefinder and a FuMO 23 radar instrument’

‘the German FuMOs were not equipped with the PPI (Plan Position Indicator) display system that is so familiar in today’s radars, but a simple A-scope display instead’

 

From the Haynes ‘Bismarck Owners Workshop Manual’ p.116

‘One criticism of these radars was that they were mounted on top of Bismarck’s three fire-control positions… and were coupled with the rotating rangefinders mounted on these positions… added strain on the turning motors’’

 

This site: http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_Radar.php states: ‘the added weight of the radar tower resulted in a critical surplus load on the sensitive bearing engines of the rangefinder tower’. And makes reference to the Prinz Eugen’s FuMO 25 antenna on it’s mainmast platform, stating it trained ‘35º to 325º’.

 

I’m not sure how they acquired targets, other than training the guns/range-finder/radar back and forth, As I’ve only seen photos of the radars pointing in the same direction as the gun turrets.

 

Mart

[AdamLouiseModellers]

You've certainly got a collection ;). It seems that the radar did only rotate with the guns. I've been watching another documentary and in it's 3D cinematics it showed them how you described, no auto rotation involved. I'm sure I can come up with some system to replicate it. The photo etch will make it even more of beast when completed. 

 

Would a resistor help in reducing the power from a 9v to a 6v, I know I could simply buy a few 6v batteries but I can't find a holder with a switch I like, picky I know. 

 

Adam

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Rotating radars was a development that went along with advances in visual display screens.

 

The earliest radars just gave a rectangle display showing fuzz some distance from one end (that end being zero distance from the ship). Remember what the acronym RADAR stands for (RAdio Detection And Ranging) as opposed to a term which implied plotting contacts all around the radar itself - that came later. The RADAR operator pointed the antenna and looked for a fuzzy return to bounce back to the antenna. The direction he was pointing the antenna gave the bearing and the RADAR return gave the detection (a fuzz) and the range (based on timing how long it took for the bounce to return, same as SONAR pinging).

 

The link between RADAR and fire control was that the RADAR operator gave bearing and range readings to the Fire Control Officer rather than using the optical range finders, which was useful in bad weather or at night.

 

I'd doubt the bridge would be illuminated at night. By doing that, the watch officers, lookouts and helmsmen wouldn't be able to adjust their eyes to the darkness outside and thus do their jobs, rendering them fairly useless.

 

I think the only thing that would be illuminated outside at night would be the search lamps, and even then they'd only be used if they were certain they had already been detected but couldn't see their attackers (e.g. torpedo boats).

[AdamLouiseModellers]

I think I may just stick to the propellers and navigation lights. I just assumed a little lighting may be visible. I do want accuracy but I do believe it would look good with a little lighting. I may try a few bits out and then make a final decision on the matter.

 

You're spot on about the radar. The Germans used it differently to the British in that it was range finding only rather than detection of enemy vessels. 

[LotusArenco]

15 hours ago, AdamLouiseModellers said:

Would a resistor help in reducing the power from a 9v to a 6v

You’d be better off using four 1.5v AAA batteries. You can get 6v battery holders that have the 9v style connector, and 6v holders with a built in switch https://www.amazon.co.uk/sourcingmap-Battery-Holder-Wired-Switch/dp/B00HR93NJM/  .

 A 9v battery won’t last as long as four AAAs. Using resistors to knock down battery voltage is very wasteful. I’m just using cheapy 9v ones from Poundland for my little project, so I’m not too fussed as I’m just running a few LEDs and a motor. If you really want to go that route, do a google for a voltage divider.

 

Mart

[AdamLouiseModellers]

That was one of the holders I wasn't keen on getting haha. I think what I have on my list will suffice in what I want to achieve. My main focus is the propellers. After watching a few videos of a guy building on YouTube, I think the Radar will be scrapped as I doubt I'll have the space for all the equipment. I've even got a plan to make the Port and Centre propellers to spin counter clockwise and the starboard clockwise, not exactly sure why they made it like that but I'm sure there was a good reason behind it

 

 

Adam