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No RLM65 in the Humbrol Luftwaffe range and all paint for 65 are wrong ?


Merlin

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Hi,

Humbrol brought out a New set of colours for Luftwaffe but missing from i are two vital colours, RLM04 gelb and RLM65 Hellblau. Looking at paint stand there is no obvious gelb 04 matched to RLM04, it was different to Roundel yellow RAF.

 

The other big thing is, all model paints for RLM65 are a turquoisy green , but Merrick charts in his books 2004/5 for 1938 and 1940 which were created with 100%  correct ingredients following discovered original recipes, have 65 as without the greeny look.

 

There is mention of the undersides receiving special anti chip coating that might have given that greeny look, but sides didnt feature it.

 

So do we disregard the old thinking and the greeny blues of all paint makers, except Akan, or disregard accurate and expensive research ?

 

Merlin

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Although I no longer have copies of Merrick's books, I would disbelieve most model paint manufacturers before I discounted Merrick's research. Having said that, I think there was probably enough variance in the paints produced for the Luftwaffe during WW II, especially toward the end of the war as certain ingredients became scarce, industry was destroyed, and aircraft maintenance became increasingly difficult, that any paint that is reasonably close is good enough. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

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The variances in 65, particularly the pre-1941 and post-1941 versions, have little to do with the shortages of 1944/45.  The "anything goes" argument may have some, if limited, merit for the final year or so of the war, but 65 wasn't in wide use by then anyway.

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Humbrol's RLM 65 is Humbrol 65,

 

https://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/65-aircraft-blue-matt-12ml-acrylic-paint.html

 

It's not turquoise, but offhand I don't know how good a match it  is

 

this suggests  RLM 04 - Humbrol 154 

https://www.humbrol.com/us-en/154-insignia-yellow-matt-12ml-acrylic-paint.html

 

again, don't know how good a match.

 

HTH

 

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With Hu65, I think it will depend on the tin/pottle you have & how old it is because there has been a fair bit of movement in colour of many Humbrol paints over the years. My tin of Hu65 is quite distinctly turqoisey. When I did a couple of BoB bf 109s a while ago, I added quite a bit of Hu44 pastel blue to give me a shade closer to my colour cards. It might have been easier to mix it from scratch with 34,44 & maybe a little very pale grey.

Steve.

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7 hours ago, Merlin said:

So do we disregard the old thinking and the greeny blues of all paint makers, except Akan, or disregard accurate and expensive research ?

 

You've tested all the other manufacturers paints and they're all wrong?

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

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I can't take any credit for the RLM colours - they were originally matched to Eagle Editions but were rematched to Merrick & Kiroff before my Stewardship. We acquired Merrick & Kiroff Vol.2 for £30 at Flying Legends airshow in 2015 quite coincidentally then sourced Vol.1 when we got back. I've stuck with that because I concur with Merlin and Barry who used to work at White Ensign Models that the pigments don't lie and that Jurgen Kiroff's work is very robust and hard to argue against with any real objectivity.

 

The fact that modellers are used to greeny RLM65s and high contrast splinter schemes is their issue to get over and not a shortcoming with Merrick & Kiroff's chips.

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A further thought:

 

It's often claimed that the original and reformulated RLM65 was a point at which it changed from blue to torquise. As noted by Nick Millman on a previous thread, the pigments are just blue and white in both versions. The only yellow content which could possibly shift it to green is the binder, which is not strongly tinting like the pigments themselves. The change in formulation was a change in paint type only, not intended shade. It changed from a paint to be applied atop a primer to a lacquer system applied on to bare metal.

 

Kiroff recreated both formulations and they are included in the two volumes of Merrick and Kiroff. In my photograph above you can see the 1941 heading. This is the lacquer system. The card entitled 1938 has the then-current RLM shades including RLM65 Hellblau and side by side they would be the same colour in anyone's opinion.

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Jamie, can you provide a complete citation for the Merrick & Kiroff books? I'd like to start searching for copies for my own library. And although I build few models of Luftwaffe aircraft (only captured examples in markings of the Allies) I'll be ordering some Colorcoat Luftwaffe colors from a US dealer to replace my Humbrol paints.

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That thread was the one with input from Jerry Crandall Stu? He interviewed a factory who had a 1942 dated formula with yellow in it. Interesting from an academic point of view but RLM65 was pretty much defunct by 1942 anyway and most modellers wanting to use it are concerned about the Battle of Britain which, I believe, was 7121.65 lacquer type and that made by Kiroff and presented on the 1941 card.

 

The Germans are a bit unimaginative and their language is based upon stringing together adjectives to create a noun. They didn't name things, they described them coldly, accurately and functionally.

 

If Hellblau (light blue) was torquise, it would have been called Hellblau-grün (light blue green).

 

That leads me to wonder why so many modellers (and some model paint manufacturers) think RLM71 Dunkelgrün  (dark green) was light green.

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13 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

Jamie, can you provide a complete citation for the Merrick & Kiroff books? I'd like to start searching for copies for my own library. And although I build few models of Luftwaffe aircraft (only captured examples in markings of the Allies) I'll be ordering some Colorcoat Luftwaffe colors from a US dealer to replace my Humbrol paints.

 

Certainly :)

 

Titles are:

Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Volume One

 

Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945 Volume Two

 

Authors:

K.A. Merrick with Jürgen Kiroff

 

Label:

ClassicColours

 

Publisher:

Ian Allan Publishing

 

First published:

2004 (Vol. 1)

2005 (Vol. 2)

 

ISBN:

1 903223 38 5 (Vol. 1)

1 903223 39 3 (Vol. 2)

 

 

Hope this helps? :)

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It's stated on the front cover, but Volume One should come with 3 separate colour cards, and Volume Two should come with 2 separate colour cards.

 

They're not stuck in to the books so if shopping online for second hand copies, I'd suggest making sure the descriptions/listings explicitly state that the colour cards are all present and correct before buying. :)

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On 25.2.2017 at 11:23 PM, SovereignHobbies said:

That thread was the one with input from Jerry Crandall Stu? He interviewed a factory who had a 1942 dated formula with yellow in it. Interesting from an academic point of view but RLM65 was pretty much defunct by 1942 anyway and most modellers wanting to use it are concerned about the Battle of Britain which, I believe, was 7121.65 lacquer type and that made by Kiroff and presented on the 1941 card.

 

The Germans are a bit unimaginative and their language is based upon stringing together adjectives to create a noun. They didn't name things, they described them coldly, accurately and functionally.

 

If Hellblau (light blue) was torquise, it would have been called Hellblau-grün (light blue green).

 

Well, there actually is a name for turquoise - it's "Türkis":nod:

 

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