The Macchi's! "Folgore" and "Veltro" in 1/48, Hasegawa plastic - COMPLETED! Page 42

[giemme]

41 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

Will the bits pulled off the eraser when it overheated affect the shape of the next mouldings Giorgio? Great first effort from a new technique!

 

Keith

Don't think so, because it was rather marginal. Next attempt to vacforming will tell, anyway    

 

Anyway, I was more concerned about the bits remaining on the plastic because they'd show up under primer/paint, and removing them isn't that easy

 

Ciao

[PlaStix]

Fascinating stuff as always Giorgio. You patience and ideas for solving issues never ceases to amaze me.

Kind regards,

Stix

[giemme]

1 hour ago, PlaStix said:

Fascinating stuff as always Giorgio. You patience and ideas for solving issues never ceases to amaze me.

Kind regards,

Stix

Thanks Stix, very kind as usual  

 

Ciao

[Massimo]

Ciao Giorgio,

Interesting procedure , I didn't know about it, as well as I didn't know about the Sand covers .

I like the subject you've chosen.

Looking forward for swing your next update.

Massimo

Edited September 20, 2017 by massimo2

[giemme]

On 20/9/2017 at 22:08, massimo said:

Ciao Giorgio,

Interesting procedure , I didn't know about it, as well as I didn't know about the Sand covers .

I like the subject you've chosen.

Looking forward for swing your next update.

Massimo

Ciao Massimo, wait no longer, see below  

 

Hi everybody, WE progress report airing now. I decided to keep using transparent PET to vacform the wheel bay sand covers - a lot easier to check for fit and alignment. Before committing to the definitive parts, though, I did test both templates:

 

The one on the right was very much affected by my overheating attempt, so I decided to carve out another one (good thing of using an eraser is that it took me no more than 10 minutes for the job  ) and do another vacforming

 

Better, I think

So using the first sample as a reference for all the cut outs and so, I refined the two new formed pieces

 

final shape

 

and with the other one

 

It took a lot of fiddling and adjusting to get there, and more than once those clear parts landed on the floor - luckily I was always able to retrieve them  

 

The plan is to glue them in place and spray primer and paint on the interiors, then add the actuator arms, which I scratch built like I did on the C202

 

Brass pipe, Tamiya tape and steel rod from a paper clip. I also drilled the holes in the triangular reinforcing plates like I did on the C202, even thought they're going to be almost invisible once the inner wheel doors are glued in  

 

I plunge molded a couple of details to be added inside the wheel bay and on the covers: two pipe covers

 

and two bumps,  going inside the covers

 

Said covers were also detailed using some aluminium tape

 

here with the bumps in place, too

 

The two covers are supposed to be slightly different, but I can't claim mine are actually accurate: all I have is a couple of shots from Di Terlizzi's build I linked earlier and a wartime picture in which I can't see many details

 

 

this is a C202, BTW, but the covers are supposed to be the same

 

Anyway, I glued them in place using Tamiya Green Cap

 

 

Let them to set overnight, then I'll add the pipe covers and I'll be ready to spray some primer on.

 

On a different matter, I've been toying with the idea of displacing the ailerons; so I cut them out from the old C202 I used as a painting mule earlier in this build. Here they are after some different Dremel bits were used up to the point where I felt confident not to wreck them

 

 

As you can see, they're not the same length, because of the different wing length used to compensate for the propeller induced torque

 

using a flat file, a knife and sandpaper I refined the shorter one, which split in the original two halves in the process (didn't do a great job in gluing them wings , back then!  )

 

So I sanded the internal surfaces and glued them back with Tamiya Green Cap, and let it set overnight

 

The other one, still to be refined, received a bath in IPA, to remove the paint residuals

 

I did check it this morning, but nothing happened, so I'll have to use something more aggressive - any ideas? (original paint was acrylic, just in case)

 

The plan is to use those two ailerons as masters, and cast resin copies; that would be an absolute first for me     I asked Crisp ( @Ex-FAAWAFU ) in his Seafire thread about how his resin ailerons were connected to the pouring stubs: wing side, as it is probably obvious (  ), which leaves me with the question about what I do here, since they are segmented ... Any ideas greatly appreciated  

 

That's it for now, comments welcome

 

Ciao

[Fritag]

Impressive vac/plunge moulding Giorgio.

 

Anticipating equally impressive resin moulding in the near future..........

 

That aluminium take looks like versatile stuff.

[giemme]

Thanks Steve  

 

4 minutes ago, Fritag said:

Anticipating equally impressive resin moulding in the near future..........

Will see  I couldn't find the same stuff you suggested here in Italy, but I think I got something very similar. I do have original LEGO blocks, though ....    

 

5 minutes ago, Fritag said:

That aluminium take looks like versatile stuff

It is, if a bit thick. Thinner than stock card sheets anyway, and I'm using a regular one (it's a plumbing tape, actually) sold in DYI shops.

I have to figure a smart way to cut rounded edges through it, though - here I used scissors, but the outcome isn't very regular

 

Ciao

[Fritag]

41 minutes ago, giemme said:

so I'll have to use something more aggressive - any ideas? (original paint was acrylic, just in case)

I've use Dettol disinfectant (do you have that in Italy?) quite successfully.  In the garage tho' as it does smell quite a bit....

 

41 minutes ago, giemme said:

leaves me with the question about what I do here, since they are segmented ... Any ideas greatly appreciated  

You could glue some strips of plastic card (make sure they are noticeably thinner than the aileron) either side of the central segment and to the same depth - so that you then have a straight line at the hinge side of the aileron to which to add a pouring stub.  After moulding the aileron you should be able to trim away extra resin copy of the thin strips easily enough.

 

The other thing to try might be to add the pouring stub at the inboard end of the aileron and cast it lengthways (I did this with the flaps on my hawks).  You'd probably still need to add a plastic strip as I describe above - but only to the inboard side of the central segment.  The advantage of the pouring stub at the end is a smaller stub/less cleaning up.  The potential disadvantage is that it'll be harder to get all the air bubbles out of the resin in what will be a long/narrow mould.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Fritag

[giemme]

Thanks heaps, Steve!   

21 minutes ago, Fritag said:

so that you then have a straight line at the hinge side of the aileron to which to add a pouring stub

Very clear, now here's my concern: the hinge side has to be rounded - not a big deal, gluing on some plastic and shaping it up with the well known scarping gizmo  . So suppose I line up the plastic card strips with the central segment; if I then use Plasticine directly connected to it to form a good pouring stub, I'll loose a good part of the rounded profile - that is, I will have to rework it on the resin part once removed from the stub. What if I add a tiny length of said plastic strip all along the central segment, as to reduce the contact ares with the Plasticine block (consequently aligning the side strips to it, of course)? Will it be a too narrow of a crevice to have the resin flow correctly (and avoid bubbles)?

 

29 minutes ago, Fritag said:

The other thing to try might be to add the pouring stub at the inboard end of the aileron and cast it lengthways (I did this with the flaps on my hawks).  You'd probably still need to add a plastic strip as I describe above - but only to the inboard side of the central segment.  The advantage of the pouring stub at the end is a smaller stub/less cleaning up.  The potential disadvantage is that it'll be harder to get all the air bubbles out of the resin in what will be a long/narrow mould.

I kinda discarded that myself, as the longer aileron is going to produce a very long and narrow mould. 

 

31 minutes ago, Fritag said:

I've use Dettol disinfectant (do you have that in Italy?) quite successfully.

It's this one, right?

 

https://www.amazon.it/Dettol-Antisettico-Liquido-Disinfettante-750-ml/dp/B01IPHQGTS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506331170&sr=8-1&keywords=dettol+disinfettante

 

Thanks again

 

Ciao

[Biggles87]

It's fascinating to read the interchange between you two masters of scratch building, it's a pity your  Macchi  doesn't have vortex generators G. At least you won't need so much engine detail with the sand covers in place.

 

Cheers

 

John

[giemme]

Just now, Biggles87 said:

It's fascinating to read the interchange between you two masters of scratch building, it's a pity your  Macchi  doesn't have vortex generators G.

Cheers John, thanks. As far as being a scratch builder, I still feel like an apprentice, not even close to being a master   .

 

I wouldn't exactly call a 'pity' the absence of VGs in the Macchi, TBH  When Steve succeeds in his endeavors with home brewed PE, I'll be happy to pay for that service rather than attempting it myself - and I don't envy him for the number of those little b...ers he has to put on ...

 

5 minutes ago, Biggles87 said:

At least you won't need so much engine detail with the sand covers in place.

My exact thought when I decided to put them on. Do you think this was quicker than scratch building the piping/cabling mess like I did on the C202? I did think so ... and I was wrong   Still, I didn't like the idea of doing exactly the same thing all over again - and I really wanted to try that rubber gum technique for vacforming  

 

Ciao

[Fritag]

2 hours ago, giemme said:

It's this one, right?

Yep.  I've used it in the past (left the painted part in a bath of Detol for a few hours or overnight) and it worked  The paint softened and either just sloughed off or came off with a bit of gentle scrubbing with an old paintbrush.  Bit messy but the plastic was undamaged.

 

2 hours ago, Biggles87 said:

two masters of scratch building

 

Muddler in scratch building at my end 

 

2 hours ago, giemme said:

So suppose I line up the plastic card strips with the central segment; if I then use Plasticine directly connected to it to form a good pouring stub, I'll loose a good part of the rounded profile - that is, I will have to rework it on the resin part once removed from the stub. What if I add a tiny length of said plastic strip all along the central segment, as to reduce the contact ares with the Plasticine block (consequently aligning the side strips to it, of course)? Will it be a too narrow of a crevice to have the resin flow correctly (and avoid bubbles)?

I wouldn't worry about the narrowness of the plastic card too much.

 

With the plastic strip along the entire length of the hinge side of the aileron you'll have a long narrow slit opening to the mould.  But RTV is quite flexible so that if you squeeze the ends of the mould together slightly whilst pouring in the resin, the slit will open/widen to enable you to easily pour in the liquid resin.  Alternatively you could just gently hold open the slit with tweezers or some such to the same effect.

 

As long as you have a generous size pouring block (essential in my opinion) you'll have a resultant generous overfill reservoir of liquid resin.  Then, when you release the RTV mould and it springs back to shape with the narrow slit between the aileron and the reservoir of resin in the pouring block, the aileron shape will be full of resin (but probably also a few air bubbles).

 

Thereafter a bit of gentle manipulation/squeezing of the mould from all sides will encourage the air bubbles out through the slit (which will open slightly again as you squeeze the mould) and into the reservoir and there you go.  You can fiddle about inside the mould wth a cocktail stick as well to dislodge recalcitrant air bubbles.   I try to avoid this tbh (I cackhandedly prodded little dents in a mould  once) but Bill is a dab hand at dislodging air bubbles this way and it's my poor technique that causes me to avoid it unless I can't get the bubbles out by squeezing.

 

I don't know how thick the ailerons are - but I would guess that you could use 0.7mm or 1mm plastic strip on the hinge side whilst leaving enough of the curved shape to act be the guide when you clean it up and reintroduce the curve?

 

For a shape like this I would - as you plan to - use plasticine to make a good pouring block/resin reservoir - but I wouldn't use plasticine directly connected to the plastic strip.  I would do as you suggest, which is to have a narrow length of plastic strip all the way along - including over the central segment (it need only be 1mm or so wide there), but I would then attach that to a plastic block wider than the aileron is thick - say 5mm or so square running the length of the aileron - and then mount that block into plasticine to make a sufficiently large pouring block/resin resevoir..

 

One small concern is making sure that the plastic strip/plastic mounting block is attached to the aileron securely enough that when you pull the master out of the mould the aileron comes out rather than the breaking-off and staying in the mould.  Actually I don't think it'd be a problem with this shape even if it did break-off as I think you would be able to use the flexible properties of the RTV to open out the mould and get a finger tip hold of the aileron and extract it.  But you might want to think about making the plastic pouring block i'm recommending by laminating strips of plastic card either side of the plastic strip you attach to the hinge side of the aileron.

 

Does this all make sense?

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Fritag

[Fritag]

Oops - deleted duplicate - sorry......

Edited September 25, 2017 by Fritag
mistake

[matteo44]

Very interesting procedure Giorgio... 

[Gene K]

2 hours ago, giemme said:

I have to figure a smart way to cut rounded edges through [the aluminum tape], though - here I used scissors, but the outcome isn't very regular

Have you tried your cutting machine ... or too thick?

 

Gene K

[Biggles87]

1 hour ago, Fritag said:

 

Muddler in scratch building at my end 

 

 

 

You are both far too modest, compared to my feeble attempts you definitely are.

 

John

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Biggles87

[giemme]

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

Does this all make sense?

Perfectly, thanks Steve  

 

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

One small concern is making sure that the plastic strip/plastic mounting block is attached to the aileron securely enough that when you pull the master out of the mould the aileron comes out

That is my concern too, and what I thought of yesterday, while cleaning the first aileron, was to insert a couple of steel rods, superglued to the central segment (making deep enough receiving holes first, obviously) and then fill the void between the rods with plastic card. Now your laminating idea also sounds very smart - might be a combination of the two? Or maybe I'm making too much fuss about it and the master will just squeeze out, as you say?

 

2 hours ago, Gene K said:

Have you tried your cutting machine ... or too thick?

Now, that might be an idea! No, I don't think it's too thick, but probably quite hard to cut for a standard paper/cardboard cutter. Will have to make a few tests. Thanks Gene!

 

Ciao

Edited September 25, 2017 by giemme

[giemme]

2 hours ago, matteo44 said:

Very interesting procedure Giorgio... 

Grazie Matteo, glad you like it

 

Ciao

[keefr22]

More nice detail work Giorgio, I agree about how useful that tape looks. And I love the 'little bumps'...!!

 

I always use car brake fluid to remove paint off plastic parts - it shifts most types of paint & (touch wood!) has never attacked any plastic parts I've used it on, other than sometimes taking the shine off the surface. I have heard though that it can attack some formulations of resin

 

Keith

[giemme]

30 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

More nice detail work Giorgio, I agree about how useful that tape looks. And I love the 'little bumps'...!!

 

I always use car brake fluid to remove paint off plastic parts - it shifts most types of paint & (touch wood!) has never attacked any plastic parts I've used it on, other than sometimes taking the shine off the surface. I have heard though that it can attack some formulations of resin

 

Keith

Cheers K, thank you!  I knew about car brake fluid, never tried myself though. I think I'll do another attempt with a kitchen degreaser I normally use to clean my airbrush from acrylic paint residuals, an it it fails I'll revert to your and/or Steve advice

Both liquids need to be sourced, though.

 

Ciao

[Cookenbacher]

Wow, you keep taking things to the next level Giorgio, amazing work.

[giemme]

9 hours ago, Cookenbacher said:

Wow, you keep taking things to the next level Giorgio, amazing work.

Cheers Cookie, thanks!   Good to hear from you, hope you're all right

 

There' s been some progress here; I glued in the pipe coves inside the wheel bay

 

then did a bit more of dryfitting, which showed I needed to thin down the innner side of the wing root leading edge, getting in the way of the sand covers.

I did that with this Dremel tool

 

A little bit of masking followed, then I sprayed my usual primer (Vallejo Grey Primer thinned with Future)

 

 

 

 

I did prime a few other bits, while I was at it

 

On a different note, my plan for casting resin copies of the ailerons got slightly frustrated; I did try Keith's advice of dipping the plastic parts in car brake fluid to remove the old paint (that was the quickest thing I could source, Dettol required longer), but after 24 hours all I got is this:

 

Thinking back, the original paint used n this model might not had been solely acrylic; there probably were two enamel clear coats (gloss and flat); I also think that my previous attempts at removing it with a q-tip dipped in cellulose thinner may have altered the plastic surface, somewhat "mixing" it with the paint coats I was trying to remove. End result: ribbing detail almost gone  

 

It is true that on the real AC, the effect is very subtle, and you see lines of small rivets rather than ribs; so now I'm pondering if I should just sand everything flat and clean, or try to reinstate the ribbing.

Any suggestions highly welcome

 

Ciao

 

 

 

 

 

[Massimo]

Ciao Giorgio,

thiose sand covers are great!!!The end result is stunning!

As Crisp says, alum tape is really versatile and resolves easily many problems in terms of patches and added plates.

I don't fully understand where the problem with the ailerons lays...

personally, I would use the model's ones, adding plastic card to the cut areas to create the right shape, as those old ones lost some of their detail trying to remove the old paint.

Probably you already know it and I've never tried it, but some friends of mine use normally Chanteclair cleaning stuff to remove paint and are very happy with it...

Anyway the only shame with Macchis is there'sso much detail in the wheels wells that models should be presented upside down!!!

Well done!!!

[giemme]

41 minutes ago, massimo said:

Ciao Giorgio,

thiose sand covers are great!!!The end result is stunning!

As Crisp says, alum tape is really versatile and resolves easily many problems in terms of patches and added plates.

I don't fully understand where the problem with the ailerons lays...

personally, I would use the model's ones, adding plastic card to the cut areas to create the right shape, as those old ones lost some of their detail trying to remove the old paint.

Probably you already know it and I've never tried it, but some friends of mine use normally Chanteclair cleaning stuff to remove paint and are very happy with it...

Anyway the only shame with Macchis is there'sso much detail in the wheels wells that models should be presented upside down!!!

Well done!!!

Thanks Massimo  

 

The point with the ailerons is that I wanted to try resin casting with them; since it's my first time, I didn't want to risk screwing up the kit, getting unusable parts (both the original plastic and the resin copies) and not being able to complete it - after all the work that already went into it! If I get anything decent out of them, I'll cut out the kit ailerons; otherwise I'll just leave them alone, as I did on the C202  

 

Having this old HASEGAWA C202 I used as paint mule, I thought I would sacrifice it for my tests. 

Chanteclair is the first stuff I tried, not working ...    

 

Ciao

[Massimo]

10 minutes ago, giemme said:

Thanks Massimo  

 

The point with the ailerons is that I wanted to try resin casting with them; since it's my first time, I didn't want to risk screwing up the kit, getting unusable parts (both the original plastic and the resin copies) and not being able to complete it - after all the work that already went into it! If I get anything decent out of them, I'll cut out the kit ailerons; otherwise I'll just leave them alone, as I did on the C202  

 

Having this old HASEGAWA C202 I used as paint mule, I thought I would sacrifice it for my tests. 

Chanteclair is the first stuff I tried, not working ...    

 

Ciao

I see your point now.

Yes, it's the right thing to do!

Chanteclair didn't work...shame!

Looking forward for your next update!