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1/72 - Gloster Meteor Mk.4 "World Speed Record" by Special Hobby - released


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17 minutes ago, 71chally said:

I take it EE455 was in all over yellow at some stage?

 

That's where we came in.... why do you take it? ;)

 

Throughout the whole of the thread no-one has yet been able to provide primary evidence of EE455 ever being yellow all over (photography, or reliable reporting ftom reasonably qualified eyewitnesses from the time, rather than many years later). I hope someone can ultimately provide such evidence, but at the moment it's not looking good. Hearsay from decades of model-builders, decal providers and illustrators doesn't count unless backed by some form of actual historical record.

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fascinating discussion, with video even, but yet I cannot help thinking...

 

If Special Hobby has tooled an all-new wing for this kit, a true long-span Derwent 5 wing....

 

We are one step closer to a Special Hobby NF kit.  They now have the basic wing.  They have the T fuselage.  They even have the larger vertical stab for the NF.14 included in the prone Meteor release.

 

We are down to the nose and miscellaneous bits like gun fairings and radar for the rear cockpit and we could have an NF.11/12/13 in short order.

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As an aside, I'm not sure if the SH kit will be released in time, but it would be wonderful to see someone (one of you chaps?), build this (or one of the other full

span options) for the current Record Breakers Group Build :).

 

A 'more than full span' metal finish,  high flying Vampire with a porthole style canopy, would also be  most welcome ...... ;)

 

Best regards

TonyT

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On 25/03/2017 at 11:32 AM, Work In Progress said:

That's where we came in.... why do you take it? ;)

 

Probably mainly through the reasons you gave, years of repeated speculation!

 

Though I wonder why they went to the trouble (bearing in mind it was 1945) of painting most of it yellow, but not all of it. 

There is another 3/4 on shot, where there doesn't seem to be much variance in the overall colour.

My own speculative hunch was that it was painted yellow all over at some point and that the wings and tail were substituted for natural metal wings and tailplane from the factory, maybe they were even specially prepared with filler for the joins etc, or even for trials.

 

This shot )posted by Special Hobby) is great for showing the different panels, be nice to find a clearer version of it.

Meteor+Mk_III+Gloster+Meteor+IV+R%2526R+

 

Edited by 71chally
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There was another finish variation again for EE455, which I suspect was the initial one at roll-out from the factory.

It appears dark all over (maybe yellow if photo taken with orthochromatic film?) with a silver bullet, fin/rudder top half, and aft part of the nacelles, and has standard VHF mast fitted

 

Of note is that the IWM have a film described as "The second aircraft involved in the speed record attempt Gloster Meteor F3 EE455 is displayed for the camera, its all yellow colour scheme contrasting with the drabness of its stablemate's livery (EE455 was unofficially known as "The Yellow Peril"). Gloster Aircraft Chief Test Pilot Eric Greenwood climbs into Meteor EE455 and is shown taking off for his attempt at the world speed record (November 7 1945). Meteor EE455 makes a high-speed pass over Herne Bay."

Might be worth a look up for anyone wanting to get the scheme dead right on the record run.

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I was going to start speculating that it could be white as where the British flag is there in no tonal difference between the white of the flag and the colour of the aircraft.

 

Robert

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I’ve been looking at high-res scans of the original glass negs of High Speed Meteor EE455 Yellow Peril. 

Three sources state that it was yellow overall (Shacklady, Derek James and Butler & Buttler). As others in this thread point out, though, the outer wings and tailplane certainly look like natural metal.

I’m not convinced, though, that the bullet fairing on the fin was unpainted. This view shows that there's a tonal change between bullet and tailplane, much like that between the centre section and starboard outer wing.

HS%20Meteor%204%20EE455%20P120%20copy_zp

James says, plausibly, that the yellow finish was “to make it easily discernible by the recording cameras.” The cameras would only see the side elevation of EE455, so while it would make sense to paint fuselage, nacelles, fin and rudder yellow there would be no need to paint the outer wings or the tailplane.

I’m familiar enough with photos of Gloster’s factory-airfields, Hucclecote/Brockworth and Moreton Valence, to be certain that the photos weren’t factory shots.There are Oxfords and what look like Harvards in the background of other photos. None of the sources say where the two Meteors were based. I believe the photos were taken at RAF Manston, 10-11 miles from Herne Bay where the record flights were made.

Were outer wings and tailplane painted yellow after the photos were taken but before the record attempt? That would have been a factory job, not something that would have been done at Manston.

Fascinating thread.
Tim
Edited by TimK
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Tim, 

Many thanks for posting what must be one of the clearest photographs available of EE455. What a lovely crisp shot. 

 

This angle of the tailplane would tend to confirm your thoughts that the fin bullet and vertical fin portion was painted yellow and not silver-ish as applied to the horizontal stabs and elevators. 

 

I have to concede that my original assumptions may have been slightly incorrect, but am always happy to 'eats ones hat'!! 

 

Cheers... Dave

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16 hours ago, Rabbit Leader said:

I have to concede that my original assumptions may have been slightly incorrect, but am always happy to 'eats ones hat'!! 

 

Cheers... Dave

Wait out Dave, I'm still inclined to agree with your earlier findings from the stills you presented, that at one stage at least it did have a silver/nmf bullet fairing along with the tailplane.  Some of the other photos seem to support that.

 

Tim, that is a brilliant picture of EE455, thank you for your post and the photo, must be great to work from nice clear originals as there are so many poor rescanned images floating around on the net.

To me the bullet fairing does look silver though, or certainly a different colour to the vertical tail. 

It may appear a slightly different shade from the tailplane, as most of what we can see of that is the underside and in shadow.

'Flight' reported at the time of the high speed runs that EE455 was painted yellow to make it easily discernible for photographic reasons (possibly James' source?).

Personally I doubt that as a primary reason, especially without a contrasting colour to 'lock on' to, and why not necessary with EE454?

 

Here is one of the shots I mentioned earlier,

large_000000.jpg?action=d&cat=photograph

We can see here that that the fin/rudder top &bullet are in silver.  What about the rest of the airframe, yellow on orthochromatic film, or a dark colour (primer?)? 

Personally I would say it is an early factory shot, note the spine VHF aerial.

 

So far I think I can see about four different slightly different finishes to this aircraft, going from photos, and I think it could be modelled in different days depending on what day it was.

 

I still struggle to believe that it was not all over yellow at one stage, I can't see why Glosters would go to the trouble of painting the majority of an airframe in a bright, distinctive and particularly colour to apply, and not paint the whole thing?

I would love to see the originals of these shots, as to my eyes they look to show it in all over yellow, however they are very poor reproductions,

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/PippinBill/9736.htm

http://www.classicaircraft.co.uk/images/meteor1.jpg

 

Charles E Brown took some colour shots of EE455 in Nov 1945, would love to have look over those!

 

This is a fascinating thread on the subject, and great to see 'Yellow Peril' being discussed in such detail, we have Special Hobby to thank for this!

Edited by 71chally
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On 28/03/2017 at 9:33 AM, 71chally said:

Here is one of the shots I mentioned earlier,

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205125860

We can see here that that the fin/rudder top &bullet are in silver.  What about the rest of the airframe, yellow on orthochromatic film, or a dark colour (primer?)? 

Personally I would say it is an early factory shot, note the spine VHF aerial.

 

Note the short span wings!

The outer panels are none standard panels with square tips and ailerons that extend right to the tip a la Hunter.

The hinge line can clearly be seen on the tip at the hinge spar position.

The rounded tip of the F3 wing and the square tip of the F4 both extended back to the aileron trailing edge.

This looks like the F3 wing with the round tip removed and the outboard ends of both the wing and the aileron faired over individually.

As other photo's show F3 wings fitted, the outer panels were changed at some point, or the tips modified/put back to standard (depending on date)

The outer wing panels look to be the same colour as the inners & fuselage (or at least not clearly different), so there appears to be a distinct possibility that EE455 existed in a short span overall yellow scheme at some point in its life.

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2 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

 

Note the short span wings!

The outer panels are none standard panels with square tips and ailerons that extend right to the tip a la Hunter.

The hinge line can clearly be seen on the tip at the hinge spar position.

The rounded tip of the F3 wing and the square tip of the F4 both extended back to the aileron trailing edge.

This looks like the F3 wing with the round tip removed and the outboard ends of both the wing and the aileron faired over individually.

As other photo's show F3 wings fitted, the outer panels were changed at some point, or the tips modified/put back to standard (depending on date)

The outer wing panels look to be the same colour as the inners & fuselage (or at least not clearly different), so there appears to be a distinct possibility that EE455 existed in a short span overall yellow scheme at some point in its life.

I looked up an old article in Aeroplane Monthly (Oct '83) a day or two back, written by a fairly senior RAF officer who had an organisational role in the 1945 speed trials. The photos were re runs of the same old ones unfortunately but one comment relates directly to Dave's comment above about EE455 having F3 wings. He says quite clearly that both '454 and '455 were both F3s. They were taken from the line and modified for the trials by having Derwent V engines fitted and armament removed and faired over. '455 was retained by Glosters and thus explains why Eric Greenwood flew it rather than a service pilot. Also Gloster's did some other tweaks which they kept secret from the rest of the team with "much winking and nose tapping going on....." . Doesn't explain much more on the colours unfortunately but a bit more background info to go with what we know. Looks like they were not F4s really.

Nige B

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That is correct Nige, EE454 & 455 (along with EE360 / G-AIDN ) were started as F.IIIs but were modified to become F.IVs, except that they retained the longer span wings for the record attempts, while the shorter span wing was in development.

 

Earlier we were looking for evidence of EE455 with the shorter span wings, I'm guessing it gained these as part of its trials with Glosters? that would also change when I thought the picture had been taken.

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2 hours ago, 71chally said:

That is correct Nige, EE454 & 455 (along with EE360 / G-AIDN ) were started as F.IIIs but were modified to become F.IVs, except that they retained the longer span wings for the record attempts, while the shorter span wing was in development.

 

Earlier we were looking for evidence of EE455 with the shorter span wings, I'm guessing it gained these as part of its trials with Glosters? that would also change when I thought the picture had been taken.

James' quote is supported by Steven J. Bond's book "Meteor - Gloster's first jet fighter", Midland Counties Publications 1985, ISBN 0 904 597 555. EE454 & 455 started as FIII's and were converted to F.4's. Concerning the short span wings, it is written:

" Despite this success (speed records), all was not quite right with the service F.4, however, and in autumn of 1946, after some 100 aircraft had been produced, it became evident that the aircraft was not structurally strong enough to cope with the stresses imposed by the higher performance. What was needed was a major redesign, but his have meant delaying further deliveries for the RAF for some time and was rejected as being unacceptable. The Gloster team came up with the idea of clipping 2ft 10ins of each wing tip, which partially solved the problem, since most of the increased stress was being taken by the wing structure."

Based on this I think the IWM photo shows EE455 in late 1946 or even later when it got clipped wings.

 

Regards,

 

Martin

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Yes, this argument has been made above based on older references.  However, because the photographs that show a strong difference between the outer wing and the central fuselage do not show the tips, and the photos of the record attempt do not clearly show the colour of the outer wings, we are unable to confirm it.  We do have evidence that there was a change of wing.  There isn't much wiggle room left, but still some.

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On 28/03/2017 at 7:01 PM, Graham Boak said:

However, because the photographs that show a strong difference between the outer wing and the central fuselage do not show the tip

The photo towards the top of this page clearly show standard F3 rounded tip outer wings and a different colour than the inner wing/fuselage/engines.

 

The IWM photo, as I said above, is I think an F3 wing with the tips removed and the wing and aileron ends faired over.

This will give a shorter span wing with a square end, but shouldn't be confused with the F4 short span wing, which had the spars an ailerons reduced in span and a small square tip fairing which enclosed the aileron end.

The former is something that an airframe fitter and a tin basher could have knocked up relatively quickly and could easily have been trialled during the period of preparation for the record attempt, the latter was a significant redesign of the outer wing and ailerons and almost certainly didn't happen until 1946.

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15 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

 

 

The IWM photo, as I said above, is I think an F3 wing with the tips removed and the wing and aileron ends faired over.

 

The former is something that an airframe fitter and a tin basher could have knocked up relatively quickly and could easily have been trialled during the period of preparation for the record attempt, the latter was a significant redesign of the outer wing and ailerons and almost certainly didn't happen until 1946.

 

I'm pretty sure that you are right on with that observation. I thought the same myself after the very interesting image appeared of '455 on here. That looks as though the idea of a clipped wing was translated for viability into flight trialling by simply clipping and fairing it off. Because the F3 had a longer aileron too, that also needed clipping and thus we have the config shown.

Regarding colours, the usual ortho film/yellow darkening is very evident and this is also on the clipped tip so we could conclude (maybe) that the outer wing panels were also yellow at this stage, prior to clipping.

 

This all may call into question when this trial tip image was taken. Was '455 fitted afterwards with full span wings again for the speed trials? Or, did the clipped wing trials occur after the speed trials? If the former, then why bother respraying the replaced full span wings with yellow and thus the 'metal' colour we have discussed. If the latter, then '455 did indeed possibly have the outer full span wings in yellow prior to clipping. Maybe. We could only know really by a wider call in the hope that someone around at the time might remember.

Nige B 

 

 

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Strange what the eye interprets, I was thinking that the outer wings look silver in that IWM shot, the tip looks particularly shiny.

Also, is it on ortho film? I did suggest as such for discussion, but wouldn't the fin flash red be darker and it was quite outdated by late war?

I've seen another two pictures of EE455 in that dark finish but with silver aft engine cowls, damned if I can find them at the mo.

 

One major problem with this at the moment is that we are not getting any accurate dates with the images that we're seeing.

Edited by 71chally
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More food for thought. Two factory photos stamped Gloster Aircraft Co Ltd with handwritten captions. Upper photo: "View of special High Speed Flight Meteor IVs being prepared for flight. July-Aug 46." Lower photo: "View of clipped wing to be fitted to Meteor IVs. View from underside." Meteor in foreground is EE549 (the number 549 is painted on the forward bulkhead in another image).

This suggests that the wing wasn't clipped before summer 1946. Note how close the roundel is to the wing tip - does this mean that it's a mod of an existing wing (the panels look a bit bashed)?

TimMeteor%20High%20Speed%20C%20copy_zpsuvm2Meteor%20High%20Speed%20B%20copy_zpsmlxq

Edited by TimK
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A couple of bits I've picked up on this afternoon

Tim Mason's The Cold War Years - Flight Testing at Boscombe Down 1935-1975 makes one brief but pertinent remark on EE455 "Clipped wings for the Mark 4 occupied EE455 from June 1946; the results are not known" (p113)

TimK's photo above shows the same wing end arrangement with the aileron right to the tip as the earlier photo - could this be the same wing during the trials at Boscombe? If EE455 was at Boscombe in predominantly the same scheme as the record run whilst testing short span wings in June 46, is this where the record run/short span wing confusion stems from?

 

The other mention I've found is in Images of England - Gloster Aircraft Company which has another shot of EE455 up on jacks, obviously taken at the same time as the others above, but from a different direction, and there's at least 4 Oxfords in the background. The caption states this was taken at Moreton Valence, with the Oxfords from 3 Pilot Advanced Flying Unit.  Moreton Valence was an RAF training station as well as a Gloster company airfield, and if Wikipedia is to be believed, 3(P)AFU were based there and flew Oxfords until December 45 when they switched to Harvards. If correct, this would date the photos to just before or just after the record run

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Dave, thanks for your information about Moreton Valence. It's clear now that my photo of EE455 from the rear was a Gloster company photo taken there, as were most of the other posed images. My suggestion that it was at Manston is wrong. Several Oxfords in the background in this one.HS%20Meteor%20EE455%20P133%20Oxfords_zpsSo knowing now that this set of images was taken at Moreton Valence, with the outer wings in natural metal, it reopens the possibility (likelihood even) that the wings were painted yellow before EE455 went to Herne Bay to attempt the record.

Tim

Edited by TimK
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On 24/02/2017 at 9:37 AM, Work In Progress said:

Glad to see that judging by the box art they have got the correct long-span wing on it. A lot of people seem to have modelled this aeroplane with the usual short-span F.4 wing. Of course I am half-way through it the hard way having spent ages over Christmas extending the wings of a Frog F.4 so that the join doesn't show, so you can all thank me later.

 

 

Might get one to do as late mark mk III

 

Working from memory, there was a bit of discrepancy in some published sources about where the F3 production ended and the F4 started (possibly because as other than a small intake in the nacelle they were pretty much identical)

Edited by Dave Fleming
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