airbus320 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Hi everyone, I've always loved this photo: It seems to sum up what a beast of an aeroplane the Beau was along with the rugged nature of the environment it was required to operate in. I picked up a Tamiya Beaufighter a few days ago on a work trip and I have this aircraft in mind. There are a couple of other shots taken around the same time as this one: According to the IWM photo albums they appear to have been taken in late 1942 or early 1943 and show Beaus of 252 Squadron. Going back to the first/second images (the aircraft I wish to build), it looks to me like the aircraft letter is D. I did a search of the Operational Record Book for 252 in August '42 which showed a visit by the photographic unit. Searching July's ORB shows an aircraft coded 'D' being delivered with the serial T5032. Interestingly the August entry shows aircraft 'N' as having force-landed at an LG with combat damage, this could be the aircraft undergoing repair in photo 3? I'm a bit new to this detective work but I think the aircraft config would be as follows: Coastal Command Beaufighter Ic with no D/F loop, flat tail planes, short carb intakes Cut down rear blister with Vickers MG installed Not sure about the exhausts, probably hedgehog style? Strike camera (F14?) in a modified nose cone Serial T5032 in black, aircraft letter 'D' in MSG Temperate Sea Scheme with Azure(?) blue undersurfaces, red cannon dope, blue MG dope and nose cone. Yellow undersurfaces to the horizontal tail? I've heard this was applied to desert Beaus and might be visible in the second photo Evidence of earlier style underwing roundels having been partially over painted Can anybody shed any further light on this aircraft? There are a number of uncertainties regarding camouflage, serial number, exhaust config, camera installation and the yellow tail undersurfaces, if anybody can point out where I'm going right or wrong I would be most grateful. I should probably just build a nice easy UK based aircraft or night fighter but I find this subject fascinating! A rod for my own back...! Thanks in advance, Chris 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Looking at the underside of the elevators in the lower picture, the colour looks much more like Sky than Azure Blue, though some allowance has to be made for possible reflectance of the sand, or indeed it being Yellow. Similarly, although less clearly, along the bottom of the fuselage. Although Azure Blue was actually paler than often represented, it seems rather pale in these views. There's no doubt that for August 1942 Azure Blue is a more likely colour than any of the other possible Blues, so this may be a matter of fading/weathering/chalking with time - I think that Mk.Is would be rather elderly aircraft by this time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 This photo, from the same sequence, is marginally stronger evidence for the yellow tailplane undersides: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188494 But I'm keeping out of the undersides debate! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwaters81tfw Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Mk 1 and Mk VI machines were still operational in September '42 with 89 sqn in the desert campaign. They were TSS scheme, having been previously at Malta. Thus: Whether it had yellow tailplanes or not is a matter for conjecture. Officially they should be TSS over sky or azure for a day machine. I have an 89 sqn machine to model. Going by this: I'm going for sky. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbus320 Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 There's also this photo: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188544 which shows the blue a little better. Definitely not sky in this case so does that leave Azure as the most likely candidate? With regards to the third picture I think I can see a demarcation on the underside just aft of the code letter N. Is this a replacement tail section with sky undersurfaces? Or possibly the front edge of the yellow ID markings? I completely missed the date on the IWM photos which shows it to be May 1943 and not August '42 as I thought. Looking at the ORB this makes 'N's registration X7819. Not that she appears to wear it! Anybody have any ideas about the nose camera fitting? It looks very different to the examples fitted to the later Mk.Xs. It also appears to be painted a fetching shade of blue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 44 minutes ago, airbus320 said: With regards to the third picture I think I can see a demarcation on the underside just aft of the code letter N. Is this a replacement tail section with sky undersurfaces? Or possibly the front edge of the yellow ID markings? I have never heard heard of the yellow recognition markings extending beyond the tailplane undersides. BTW the photo I linked to appeared in Roger Freeman's book The RAF In WW2 In Colour by A&AP: when it came out, a book reviewer commented on the photograph as welcome confirmation of the reported use of yellow tailplane undersides on some Western Desert Beaufighters. Not sure I've heard the story anywhere else. No idea re nose camera fitting. Is the colour just fresh EDSG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, Seahawk said: I have never heard heard of the yellow recognition markings extending beyond the tailplane undersides. BTW the photo I linked to appeared in Roger Freeman's book The RAF In WW2 In Colour by A&AP: when it came out, a book reviewer commented on the photograph as welcome confirmation of the reported use of yellow tailplane undersides on some Western Desert Beaufighters. Not sure I've heard the story anywhere else. IIRC, first time I read about yellow recognition markings on desert Beaus was in a "Tailpiece" column by Mike McEvoy in Scale Aircraft Modelling. Just a few years ago, but I can't remember how many. Twenty, maybe? Reportedly, the purpose was to avoid being mistaken for Ju. 88's by AA gunners. Since then, I have thought that a Beaufighter BT-B, picture seen somewhere, might have had yellow tailplane undersides AND rear lower fuselage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyot Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I think that you have just about nailed it Chris,....... looking forward to seeing your model, Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noelh Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I remember seeing those pictures before, never noticed the yellow tail. It would be a great model. Notice how the back of the propeller is practically worn back to bare metal in one of the pictures. Heavy weathering is definitely the order of the day. Great aircraft the Beaufighter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 On the matter of the yellow tail plane I have absolutely no knowledge at all but noticed on the colour photo that if you look at the underside of the fuselage just to the right of the guy standing at the tail in the photo the narrow strip of underside paint seems to have the same colour and tone as the underside of the elevators. Or do my eyes deceive me? Could it be an issue with the colour photo processing or film?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 The lower aft fuselage was yellow too, If you enlarge it you can make out the demarcation just below the letter 'F' here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188546 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnT Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, occa said: The lower aft fuselage was yellow too See, you learn something every day on here Ta Occa 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 If the aircraft were flown out in Sky then the local MU (Alexandria?) would have repainted them, but It seems unlikely that they'd have needed to be doing that by 1942/43. In 1940/41 there was a local light blue described under various names (including Iraqi Blue) but this is what Azure Blue was matched to. If you feel that Azure Blue does not appear as intense a blue as that shown in the pictures, then Light Mediterranean Blue was an authorised alternative. You may of course feel that LMB is too intense a blue to match what is shown, but bearing in mind use and that paints rarely appear as intense on photographs of an aircraft than they do from the tin/on the chip, I think it a good possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) n/m Edited January 5, 2020 by Mark Mackenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) deleted by me Edited February 23, 2017 by brewerjerry wrong thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbus320 Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 Great info everybody - this site is a great resource! I definitely think TSS is correct for the uppers, especially with regards to the aircraft running up in photos 1 and 2. Number three looks like heavily faded TSS with some touch ups. It compares favourably to the colours seen on the Sea Hurricane in this post: http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1455033261/FAA+Temperate+Sea+Scheme-+whats+the+best%3F As for the underside, I reckon the first two images show Azure blue, however the colours in the link in my second post (closeup of the engine and wing) above may show LMB undersides. Would these aircraft have been flown out from the U.K. in full TSS with sky undersides and had these painted out at the MU in different colours at different times? Also LMB could be a clue as to the colour of the F.14 camera nose. Mark, the aircraft shown in that sequence of photos still confound me after years of looking at them! They appear to be a repaint job as the control surfaces are a different colour and the upper/lower demarcations are unusually low. Could they be an early attempt at a Coastal scheme where the sky and dark earth have been replaced with different shades of grey? Something about it says that it is not DE/MS but that could be the psychological effect of looking at the snowy background!!!! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Mackenzie Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Thank you Chris, When the two photos are placed next to each other it does indeed confirm the TSS. I would think that the UK photos of 252 Sqd would be the same colour as those in the desert? Cheers, Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 4 hours ago, Mark Mackenzie said: I would think that the UK photos of 252 Sqd would be the same colour as those in the desert? At the time of the UK photos, the specified camouflage for Beaufighters of Coastal Command was Dark Green, Dark Earth, Sky. Early Beaufighters with 252 Sqn. were Mk.IFs, later replaced by Mk.ICs. There was also a short period when Beaufighters were delivered by Bristols in dark grey primer, leaving application of appropriate (?) camouflage to MUs. I am afraid it may be dangerous to infer back from a late 1942 - early 1943 picture. Thanks for posting the two pictures side by side. Worth more than a thousand words, as they say. Claudio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Hi Curiosity as usual, are there any B/W photos of the a/c with the yellow tail markings, just wondering how the yellow colour shows up in a B/W photo, and if it can be noticed that it is there. cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Dunno if this one is good enough, I found it on wikipedia with a quick search, the yellow appears to be lighter than the azure blue. Notice the demarcation below the code letter again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 It'll depend upon the film and the filter. Ortho film will reproduce red, and the more orange yellow like the RAF colour, as dark or even black. Panchormatic film reproduces yellow as light. I'd have said the outer rim of the roundel was darker than the underside in this photo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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