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17th PG Boeing P-26 unit markings


Brian J

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I have three 1/48 decal sheets for markings of the well known P-26's of the 17th PG.  An issue arises when trying to compare black and white photos of the unit markings of the 95th PS (kicking mules) and the 73rd PS (bears head) with the decal sheets from AeroMaster (48-063), Yellow Wings (48-072) and Starfighter Decals (4802).  

 

1.  73rd PS

      -the AeroMaster sheet has the unit markings with a brown surround, the same colour as the bear.

      -the Yellow Wings sheet has a larger badge with a black surround and a different amount of black shading.

Both of the above markings are for a/c number 37.

      -the Starfighter sheet has a smaller badge with a yellow surround and bear head with a dark blue backing.

 

The Yellow Wings sheet and the Starfighter sheets show different colours for the 95th PS unit badge.

 

I realize that these colours might differ when the 17th changed from O.D. to blue, but photos seem to contradict the colours of the scallops as well.  I'd enjoying hearing from others who may have access to photos (I have at least five or six references on the subject) to help clarify the issue as I have three Academy P-26's that I'd love to tackle.

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  • 3 weeks later...

O-o-o-kay, I'm going to try this again and see if I can get some answers.  First off I'm going to list my references hoping that other members have access to the photos/drawing I'm referring to.

 

1.  Air Force Colors, Vol. 1 1926-1942 by Dana Bell; Squadron Signal Publications.

2.  The Official Monogram US Army air Service & Air Corps Aircraft Color  Guide, Vol. 1, 1908-1941 by Robert D. Archer; Monogram Aviation Publications.

3.  P-26 Mini in Action by Larry Davis; Squadron Signal Publications.

4.  On Target Special No. 6 Wings of Stars:  US Arm Air Corps 1919-1941 by Peter Freeman; The Aviation Workshop Publications Ltd.

5.  Yellow Wings Decals, 48-072 P-26A 17th Pursuit Group (1934/35)

6.  Starfighter Decals, 4802 P-26 Peashooters

 

I have other references as well, but the above will do.  My questions have to do with the interpretation of the markings of the 95th PS 'Kicking Mules' of the 17th PG.

 

On page 186 of reference 2 there are two photos of P-26's from the 95 PS.  The top photo of #62 shows the tail and head rest scallops in yellow on a darker background (Light Blue 23 ?).  The fuselage scalloping shows dark/light/dark colours (Light Blue/Yellow/Light Blue).  The unit insignia appears to be a mule on a Light Blue 23 circle/background.

At the bottom of the page is a photo of P-26 #73.  The same markings but the colours are reversed i.e. Light Blue 23 scalloping on tail and head rest on a yellow tail.  Same goes for the fuselage scalloping.

 

On page 48 of reference 1 are two artwork images.  The top one is of the above mentioned #62 showing the yellow scalloping, etc.  These markings apparently were appropriate for an OD fuselage.  The second image is of #74 with the two colours reversed.  This reversal of colours was apparently used when the fuselage colour was changed to blue.  The bottom photo on page 186 of reference 2 seems to verify this reversal in unit colours i.e. Light Blue scalloping on a yellow background.  The unit insignia now has a mule ( colour of which I am uncertain) on a yellow (?) circle, just like on the art work on page 48 of reference 1.  

 

These interpretation of colour markings appear to be verified on page 39 of reference 4.  

 

My problem arises when I compare the two above mentioned decal sheets, references 5 and 6.  The Starfighter sheet has markings for P-26 #90, the tail numbers small and in black when they should be larger and in Light Blue 23, with blue scalloping and yellow/blue/yellow fuselage scalloping (the blue is close to True Blue, which I believe is incorrect).  The sheet instructions show this to be applied to a Light Blue 23 fuselage.  

 

The Yellow Wings decal sheet shows the same colour interpretation as the Starfighter sheet but on a OD fuselage.  According to the photos in reference 2 and the artwork in reference 1 the tail colours are wrong on this sheet as is the yellow/blue/yellow fuselage scallops.  This sheet has the unit insignia smaller then the Starfighter sheet with a brown mule on a yellow circle with blue edging (the opposite of the Starfighter sheet).  

 

I am interested in doing a build up of three P-26's in the markings of the three units of the 17th PG.  I had hoped to do them all with the OD fuselage.  From what I can gather I can't use the fuselage scallops from either of the two mentioned decal sheets as they would be for the Light Blue 23 fuselage markings.

 

Does anyone know if all three squadrons flew with the Light Blue fuselage scheme?  Black and white photos make it difficult to judge if they did.  

 

I apologize for my long winded, rambling introduction but after looking at photos until I'm blue in the face (Light Blue 23 by the way) I am at a loss as to how to proceed.  Any advice and comments would be appreciated...please, no eye rolling and head shaking.  

  

Edited by Brian J
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According to my issue of "American Aviation Historical Society Journal" Vol.22 No.3 Fall 1977......

the 95th Squadron at some point reversed the blue and yellow striping and scalloping possibly to avoid blue stripes against the later blue fuselage color......and 95th insignia was a brown and tan bear on a yellow disc. Red border.

The back inside cover has 4 excellent side views  of the 17th Attack Group. 95th,73rd,34th and the Headquarters Squadron which is very different than the rest. All the pertinent color information for the 4 is covered in detail.

PS.....all 4 aircraft were finished in Olive Drab with yellow wings.

Edited by flypaper
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Many thanks for your response.  An observation and question.  All of my references indicate that the 95th PS (blue and yellow squadron colours) in question had the 'kicking mule' unit insignia.  The 73rd PS (red and yellow squadron colours) had the brown bear unit insignia.  According to the AAHS article/art work did the art work for the 95th PS (blue and yellow) with a OD fuselage show those markings in yellow/blue/yellow on the fuselage or were they blue/yellow/blue?

 

The more I look over b&w photos the more I believe that a definitive study could/should be done on the study of P-26 markings.  So much confusion.  I have two photos of P-26 #64 in which one shows the aircraft with an antenna and gun sight and another that shows it without.  This holds true for other aircraft in the 17th PG.

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2 hours ago, Brian J said:

Many thanks for your response.  An observation and question.  All of my references indicate that the 95th PS (blue and yellow squadron colours) in question had the 'kicking mule' unit insignia.  The 73rd PS (red and yellow squadron colours) had the brown bear unit insignia.  According to the AAHS article/art work did the art work for the 95th PS (blue and yellow) with a OD fuselage show those markings in yellow/blue/yellow on the fuselage or were they blue/yellow/blue?

 

The more I look over b&w photos the more I believe that a definitive study could/should be done on the study of P-26 markings.  So much confusion.  I have two photos of P-26 #64 in which one shows the aircraft with an antenna and gun sight and another that shows it without.  This holds true for other aircraft in the 17th PG.

 

 

my mistake, your correct the 73rd was the brown/tan bear.....and the illustration shows for the 95th olive drab with medium blue yellow medium blue  markings..... again i'm sorry for the brain belch on the mix up. as an aside the 34th used black with white trim flight leader stripes....a/c#1 had 3 stripes, a/c#2 had 2,and a/c#3 had one.

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Again, thanks for the input.  That second photo of P-26 #64 is one of the ones I was talking about. Yours is larger and more clear.   I have another photo taken from a very old modeling magazine, a panoramic view taken from an elevated position showing 18 P-26's, mostly from the 95th PS.  #64 can be seen in the front row with no gun sight or antenna in front of the windscreen or the tail. In fact none of the aircraft have these antennas or gun sights.  I believe these are the markings for the Yellow Wings 1/48 sheet.  This is the photo found on the bottom of page 19 of Dana Bell's Air Force Colors.  For those who don't have a copy of this book, there are two other photos above it, one for each of the other two squadrons in the 17th PG.  The caption reads, "95th PS colors were blue and yellow (reversed for contrast when blue fuselages were introduced).  All of these "Peashooters" had OD fuselages with yellow wings.  Note that the 95th PS did not repeat the aircraft number on the fuselage spine."

 

Would members following these postings conclude that the subject in the above photo have a blue or OD fuselage?

 

Am I reading the caption wrong or is it suggesting that #64 had a OD fuselage?

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The photos are dated July 23, 1934.  The change from OD to blue fuselages was approved in February 1934, and the T/O published three months later, i.e., May 1934. So some aircraft could have been repainted in the early summer.   However, due to budgetary concerns, the repainting was scheduled to coincide with major maintenance.   So could some aircraft have been repainted prior to July 1934?  Yes it is possible but I think unlikely.

 


 

Edited by Vonbraun
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12 hours ago, Brian J said:

Many thanks for your response.  An observation and question.  All of my references indicate that the 95th PS (blue and yellow squadron colours) in question had the 'kicking mule' unit insignia.  The 73rd PS (red and yellow squadron colours) had the brown bear unit insignia.  According to the AAHS article/art work did the art work for the 95th PS (blue and yellow) with a OD fuselage show those markings in yellow/blue/yellow on the fuselage or were they blue/yellow/blue?

 

The more I look over b&w photos the more I believe that a definitive study could/should be done on the study of P-26 markings.  So much confusion.  I have two photos of P-26 #64 in which one shows the aircraft with an antenna and gun sight and another that shows it without.  This holds true for other aircraft in the 17th PG.

 

 

my mistake, your correct the 73rd was the brown/tan bear.....and the illustration shows for the 95th olive drab with medium blue yellow medium blue  markings..... again i'm sorry for the brain belch on the mix up. as an aside the 34th used black with white trim flight leader stripes....a/c#1 had 3 stripes, a/c#2 had 2,and a/c#3 had one.

 

The AAHS journal reads that the a/c would be repainted as they came in for maintenance. In the P-26 "Aero Series" book the author talks about walking through a hanger of the 17th and seeing both OD and Blue a/c "a sight I will never forget". 

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I found the last sentence in the above posting very interesting in that, again, I hope to do build-ups in each squadron of the 17th PG.  I had hoped to do all three of them in OD but the two 1/48 decal sheets I have means that the model  representing the 95th will have to be done in Light Blue 23.  That sentence also moved me to pull out my copy of the Aero Series No. 22 and re-read the section on 'Markings and Color Schemes.'  

 

More questions were raised when I compared the artwork on the bottom of page 20, which represents P-26 #72 of the 95 PS.  A b&w photo of this aircraft can be seen at the bottom of the next page.  From what was suggested in other references, if the fuselage was OD the fuselage scalloping should be blue/yellow/blue (as seen in the two photos on page 23), with the unit insignia in a Light Blue 23 circle.  The photo at the bottom of page 21 has the fuselage scallops reversed with the unit insignia on a lighter coloured circle (yellow?).  Yet the artwork of this aircraft shows the unit badge on a Light Blue 23 circle.  Also, the number '72' on the vertical tail appears to be lighter then the black numbers shown in the artwork.

 

Of interest is the comment on page 23, which states, "Each squadron in the 17th Pursuit Group had a run of numbers painted on either side of the vertical fin on top of the rear fuselage turtledeck.  The squadron number was painted in white, under the belly of the fuselage."  Would those white numbers be found on all three squadrons?  The two 1/48 sheets I keep referring to show these underside numbers in the colour of the squadron, not white.  Any comments?

 

Another point of interest is in comparing the two tail colours on the P-26's found on page 23.  in the middle photo of #62 the vertical tail is much darker then the blue of the fuselage scallops, while the tail markings of #65 in the lower photo is much lighter, the same shade as the fuselage scalloping. 

 

Ideally, I'd love to do the colour scheme for the 95th PS as is shown on page 20 but I don't know how accurate that would be.

 

I'm having a hard time letting this go!  Spent some more time looking at photos and comparing them to those decal sheets.  I noticed that on the second photo #64 the flight leader stripes on the wing are noticeable as being lighter then the yellow wing and with no dark/black edging (at least to my eye).  The Yellow-Wings sheet shows this stripe as yellow edged in black, and they only provide one stripe!  I would think that stripe would be in blue as yellow on yellow with no edging wouldn't make sense.  In an earlier posting 'flypaper' says that the stripes for the 34th PS were black with white edging.  The Yellow-Wings sheet represent these stripes as white with black edging.  Inaccurate decals have always been one of my modeling pet peeves and these decals are verifying that opinion!  

Edited by Brian J
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Something just dawned on me (that's pretty unusual) and I thought I'd add this observation.  In the second photo 'Vonbraun' posted of #64, according to specs, if the fuselage scallops were yellow/blue/yellow, the fuselage should have been Light Blue 23.  But in the photo the darker colour in the scallops is lighter then the colour of the fuselage.  Does that mean the fuselage was not the same colour as the interior of the interior scallop i.e. the fuselage was not Light Blue 23?  Is it possible that the fuselage was OD but with the yellow/blue/yellow scallops?  In other words the Yellow-Wings decal instructions are correct except for the circle of the unit emblem, which should be yellow and not blue.

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The drawings in the AAHS journal show the white belly numbers on all 3 Squadrons. Trying to draw color information from B&W photos from this time period is an iffy thing at best. Different films altered the end results and not knowing which film was used only makes it even more iffy.

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Hi Brian,

This is an interesting thread.  I agree that a definitive study of the 17th’s markings would be great, but I’m not sure what it would take.  Air Force Colors Volume 1 was written almost 40 years ago; I’ve found a number of errors since then, and I’m pretty certain that the image of aircraft 64 at the foot of page 18 should have been captioned as a version of the Light Blue fuselage rather than OD.  For that reason, I’m probably the guy that misled Yellow Wings on the instructions for their decals; mind you, the decals are fine, but I’m pretty sure the instructions should have said “mixed Light Blue” for the fuselage color.  Here’s my reasoning - you can make your own decision whether you think I’m right or wrong.

 

In 1934/35, March Field was the home of the 7th Bomb Group and the 17th Pursuit Group.  The base commander from 1931 to 1936 was Hap Arnold, who had a personal interested in the appearance of his units’ aircraft.  If the aircraft were among the first to be repainted blue, it was probably due to his desire to be first and spiffiest!  (BTW, his personal aircraft was #00 in the lineup images.)

 

The aircraft at March were brand new in 1934, and didn’t need to be repainted.  (The very first P-26A was delivered to the Air Corps in December 1933, and the first B-10 the following June.)  BUT, some of the OD aircraft were repainted at March anyway.  Even though the orders calling for Light Blue 23 fuselages were first issued in February 1934, before the year was over inspectors twice gigged the 7th Bomb Group for the condition of their Light Blue finishes.  The first problem came when the turquoise-blue paint faded too quickly in the stark California sun.  The 7th repainted its aircraft, adding Insignia Blue to the Light Blue, creating a darker, more stable color; they were then gigged for using the wrong shade of blue.  (I wish I could find the original report to give you the exact dates - I must clean this office one day!)  Anyhow, we know Light Blue paint was on base, in two forms, during 1934.  While the fuselages in all the 17th’s B&W P-26 photos seem dark enough to be OD, we could be looking at the darker, mixed Light Blue used at March.

 

The Air Corps began adopting a new “Air Corps version” of Light Blue 23 in late 1934.  It was much darker and richer than the original Quartermaster Corps 3-1 color.  There is a very slight possibility that this color was available to the 17th for repaints in 1935, but not as early as February - I think we can rule out the use of the Air Corps Light Blue in any of our photos.

 

In high-resolution copies of those P-26 images, the “dope codes” on the right side of the rudders show that the paint was applied to #64 and #37 in February 1934.  (The rudder of #11 was painted on 10 January 1934.)  The other surfaces of the aircraft were factory painted around the same time. While repaints would have meant new dope codes telling which paints were applied, when they were applied, and by whom – unfortunately, we can’t see those codes (and the rudders weren’t repainted anyway) so there’s no evidence here, either way.

 

We know none of the images mentioned so far were shot on ortho film - the wings would have looked almost black.  The tonal reversals seen in the 95th shots might have resulted from different filters, but witnesses mentioned the 95th’s switch from blue-yellow-blue to yellow-blue-yellow.

As you’ve noted, the 95th’s squadron colors are reversed in several photos.  You’ve also noted the minor variations in numbering and position – almost certainly the results of repainting, not problems with film or camera filters.  Working from dated photos, here’s what this looks like, in order of aircraft tail number and photo date:

 

62    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
64    Jul 1934 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
        Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
65    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
71    Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
72    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
73    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
        ?? 1934 - Archer p 186,  - light tail, slightly darker scallop
74    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
        Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop

81    Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
82    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
        Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
83    Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
85    Jul 1934 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
        Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop
90    Jun 1934 – darker tail, light scallop
        Feb 1935 - light tail, slightly darker scallop

 

Only three of the aircraft (73, 74, and 82) show a tonal reversal in two different photos, and two of those aircraft show that the light tail with slightly darker scallop is the later variation in unit markings.  If the later scheme’s scalloping is Light Blue 23, the fuselage most likely is the mixed Light Blue (though OD remains a slight possibility).  And if that’s true, the mixed Light Blue fuselage color was applied as early as June 1934 (aircraft 64) and was present on all the 95th’s aircraft in those lineup photos.

 

The other 17th aircraft in those famous  February 1935 lineup images seem to have the same fuselage color, but it would be a real stretch to say this proves they were blue. 

 

So that’s my opinion – I’d still love to find some contemporary records that conclusively show what actually happened, but this is the best I’ve got so far.

 

Cheers,

 


Dana
 

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Many thanks, Dana, for taking the time to help explain what was going on so long ago.  I was hoping you might read this thread and jump in.  I'm afraid I'm going to have to read your post a couple of more times to comprehend what you explained. The main thing is you confirmed that if I'm going to use the Yellow-Wings decal sheet (48-072) to build-up P-26 #64 I'll have to do it with a Light Blue 23 fuselage.

 

Am I to conclude that the other two squadrons, the 34th and 73rd could be painted with an OD fuselage or should all three squadrons have a blue fuselage?

 

Are you aware of any photos being available that show the size and font of the white numbers on the underside of 17th PG P-26's?  As I indicated earlier, none of the  P-26 decal sheets I have have the correct colour for those numbers.  Do you know if all three squadrons had those white belly numbers?  It's hard to tell from photos.

 

One more comment.  Gee, I wish I lived in your neighborhood.  I'd be visiting you every day! 

Edited by Brian J
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I have a few pictures of the 17th PG Aircraft where you can see the bottom numbers. The photos are very large (scans of the originals) so I can't post them on a forum. I also have paint guides that I have found thru my many contacts that show the numbers top and bottom of the fuselages. The Bottom numbers seem to be the typical USAAC lettering, the top number was a unique style for each squadron. I think these were published in Skyways?

 

I haven't seen a picture of a 34th PS that could be interpreted with a Blue 23 fuselage. However, the restored P-26 at Planes of Fame did wear this scheme for years. All of the research I have on these aircraft from the Matt Jefferies collection, National Museum of the USAF, and some private collections that have been shared with me, it seems that this scheme was never used operationally. However, just as new color photos of P-26s have tuned up lately, new information is still out there yet to be rediscovered.

 

As two aircraft were painted blue or OD at the same time, take a look at this from 1PG, Selfridge field:

 

27727595273_9302925a92.jpgSelfridge0810 by starfighterace, on Flickr

 

 

In the future, if you have a question on my decals, feel free to contact me thru my web site. I have research to back up all of my decals so I can answer questions just like this.

Edited by Starfighter Decals
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Hi Brian and Mark,

 

Sorry to be so vague about those 17 PG aircraft - I believe that all three squadrons used blue fuselages by early 1935, but I'm basing that only on a very risky interpretation of B&W photos - the three known photos of that lineup look like the aircraft could have all been the mixed blue.  Since that doesn't really prove anything, I'll leave it to you to decide if you want to show all three models with blue fuselages.

 

Shots of the underside numbers are hens teeth.  I think most interpretations are based on what we see from the ground view walkarounds.

 

Mark, those 1st Pursuit pix are great.  The Blue we're seeing is almost certainly the darker Light Blue 23 from the Air Corps' porcelain enamel chips - certainly not the 3-1 version of Light Blue 23.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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Here are a few more screen shots featuring blue P-26s and P-30s.

P_26_color_dg1.jpg

P_26_color_p1.jpg

P_26_color_da.jpg

The blue has a discernible turquoise characteristic that is quite different than the blue commonly depicted for USAAC aircraft of the period.

Is the turquoise trait also exhibited in the Air Corps' Light Blue 23 porcelain enamel chips?

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I would't draw any hard conclusions because of the color cast present in the movie. Perhaps some work removing it and other adjustments would be helpful. Mr Bell since your here can you up date us on your work on the history of US olive drab? I read on another forum that you had a book in the works, and being curious can you comment on the olive drab in this movie and what your thoughts might be on a modeling paint match. Been following your work since Troy NY 1970's.

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On 3/18/2017 at 9:08 PM, Dana Bell said:

Hi Brian and Mark,

 

Sorry to be so vague about those 17 PG aircraft - I believe that all three squadrons used blue fuselages by early 1935, but I'm basing that only on a very risky interpretation of B&W photos - the three known photos of that lineup look like the aircraft could have all been the mixed blue.  Since that doesn't really prove anything, I'll leave it to you to decide if you want to show all three models with blue fuselages.

 

Shots of the underside numbers are hens teeth.  I think most interpretations are based on what we see from the ground view walkarounds.

 

Mark, those 1st Pursuit pix are great.  The Blue we're seeing is almost certainly the darker Light Blue 23 from the Air Corps' porcelain enamel chips - certainly not the 3-1 version of Light Blue 23.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Hi Dana!

 

From the info I gathered from the Matt Jefferies Collection at Wright State, when the 17th PG traded in their P-26s, they went to 1st PG. I saw some photos (photo-copied one, Plane 66) and documentation saying none of the 34th PG aircraft were Blue 23. This doesn't mean that those set to other units (20th PG or 16th PG) were not. Wright State won't release the photos to be copied by electronic means unless you make some sort of substantial financial donation and photo-copies are pretty poor that I was allowed to make for a $1 per page. Seeing the list of every P-26 and it's disposition by Tail Number was pure gold in itself.

 

According to Periscope Films, the color in this film was very faded and they almost gave up on trying to restore it. I wouldn't read to much into the shade of colors pulled from the movie. They were very gracious to give me a copy.

 

Dana, I sent you an e-mail about a month ago on another subject. Did you ever get it?

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Hi All,

 

It takes a while to catch up with e-mails and postings - sorry to say, I'm still way behind.

 

First, the Light Blues.  Here's what I would consider a decent match for the Army 3-1 Light Blue 23 as applied by the (then) Air Force Museum:

 

071022-F-1234S-007.JPG

 

Next a decent match for the Air Corps post 1934 version of Light Blue 23 from Planes of Fame.  They may have been trying to match the ANA Light Blue (True Blue), but the photo looks more like the Air Corps chip to my eye.  (I know - you can't tell from a color photo....)

 

Peashooter-Pic-23.jpg

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