question about 190 D's converted from 190 A fuselages

[nsmekanik]

I've got a couple of HobbyBoss 190 D-12 kits that I'm playing around with and I'm looking at painting one or both of them up as airframes converted from A-8's, been browsing around the internet but haven't found anything that would indicate how they might appear so wondering if anyone might have some info, doesn't have to be specific to the D-12. 

 Just a heads up for anyone looking at the torpedo version, not worth the extra teeny expense as the torpedo looks nothing like that depicted on the box or the real thing.

Edited February 13, 2017 by nsmekanik

[Vonbraun]

The first pre-production protoype of the Fw190D-9, converted from a standard 190A-8 airframe in early 1944, at Focke Wulf Adelheide.

 

First flight was June 12 1944.

[nsmekanik]

Thanks for the pic

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi, nsmekanik

Here is the link to a page with photos and profiles of one of three D-12 prototypes:

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190D/Fw-190D-CS+IA.html

All three had been converted from A-8 models. I understand Germans intended to recycle damaged A, F and G machines or those due to overhaul into new D series aircraft. I am not sure how many Doras were actually converted from previously BMW powered airframes, but at least some had. Cheers

Jure

[tank152]

Hi, The D-12, of which, only a couple of photographs are known to me of CS+IA, V63 W.Nr. 350165 was built from a A-8 airframe.

The only other D's you could realistically build from your kit would be,

A, a D-11 for which you'd have to incorporate the outer Mk108 30mm cannon on each wing and the associated wing bulges. The D-11 also had the Blown type canopy.

B, a D-13, which only really differed from the D-12 by the engine mounted cannon. The 12 used the MK108 30mm where as the 13 used the MG151 20mm cannon. There would also be 2 access panels that would require moving slightly as well.

You wouldn't be able to model a D-9 from your kit as the supercharger intake is wrong as is the upper engine cowl.

Tim.

 

[nsmekanik]

Thanks guys, The link and info is quit helpful. I should explain that I'm building a hypothetical D-12 R-14, of which I understand, were intended to be built using recycled A fuselages. I'm not planing on going to any real extremes with accuracy but am trying to stick to a "most likely" scenario paint/marking wise. I thought a good place to start would be to see how things were done with converted D-9's and kinda go from there. Then of course, there is the wings, tail, and engine cowling to consider. So far what I've done is Natural metal landing gear bays, and RLM 76 gear doors inside and out.........

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi, nsmekanik

There are photos of A-8s aircraft with fuselages, painted in 8x series colours and tails, probably replacement due to damage, in older RLM 74/75/76. And this is only one among many anomalies. If real aircraft were painted in such colours why restraining your imagination with hypothetical ones? Cheers

Jure

[nsmekanik]

On 2/19/2017 at 9:58 AM, Jure Miljevic said:

Hi, nsmekanik

There are photos of A-8s aircraft with fuselages, painted in 8x series colours and tails, probably replacement due to damage, in older RLM 74/75/76. And this is only one among many anomalies. If real aircraft were painted in such colours why restraining your imagination with hypothetical ones? Cheers

Jure

I like to call it "alternate WWII and beyond" , I'm not quit sure what you mean by "restraining your imagination with hypothetical ones" , for me I do get a bit of enjoyment trying to come up something "likely if" and in this case it would be what would the D-12, being used as a torpedo bomber, possibly look like were it put into production as planned. For instance, should the engine be RLM 81 as with the D-11, or was the D-11 originally painted RLM 75 and repainted? Or should it be RLM 75 as with the D-13, or maybe RLM 81/82 as with the TA 152? and then, just to through a loop into things, how should I paint the cover behind the engine? For the wings there is either RLM 76 or maybe RLM 75, both of which wrapped around under the wing to bare metal, I've already done the gear doors in 76 but I don't think it matters as, using Eduard instructions for inspiration, it seems that even RLM 75 wings with RLM 76 Gear doors happened. The fuselage extension is easy, natural aluminum over painted on the top......but in what color?  And then there is the tail.......

I know I can do whatever my heart desires and playing around with ideas is exactly that, but knowing what was essentially being done does help in deciding what to do. Pics, or a pointer to some, would be nice.

 

Here is where I'm at with the landing gear, Hobbyboss decals are pure garbage, they do not stick, throw them away, the end. I'm using Decals from a Dragon Mistel kit and they work beautifully

Edited July 2, 2018 by nsmekanik

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello, nsmekanik

I believe I understand now. You are interested in alternative German aircraft development but without over the top stuff like ˝Over the southern Indian ocean Hitlerjugend pilots from Trägergruppe 3 in their Ta 183 T-2 fighters shot down ten B-49W bombers on their mission to melt Antarctic icecap with H-bombs and exposing secret Nazi spaceship launch site underneath˝.

My suggestion about not restraining your imagination was actually more about aircraft modifications than colour scheme differences which, in light of your plans to make a model of torpedo bomber Dora, was hardly necessary. You probably already read this one but still ... I find Yellow 10 - The story of the ultra-rare Fw-190 D-13 by Jerry Crandall very informative. In this book author also mentions plans to replace D-9 radiator with the one from Ta 152 and other possible modifications. He also elaborate on various Dora colour schemes.

An article about Fw 190 A-8s with empennage in different colour scheme was published in Luftwaffe im Focus magazine, but I cannot recall in which number. I also remember reading about Luftwaffe plans, laid out in late 1944. The idea was to shift to all jet fighter air force by 1946, with late sub-models of Dora and Ta 152s serving as stopgaps. Again, I am not certain where I read that, but possibly it was Alfred Price's book The last year of the Luftwaffe.

I hope it helps. Cheers

Jure

[nsmekanik]

Yes it does Jure, and thank you

[Troy Smith]

18 hours ago, nsmekanik said:

I like to call it "alternate WWII and beyond" , I'm not quit sure what you mean by "restraining your imagination with hypothetical ones" , for me I do get a bit of enjoyment trying to come up something "likely if" and in this case it would be what would the D-12, being used as a torpedo bomber, possibly look like were it put into production as planned. For instance, should the engine be RLM 81 as with the D-11, or was the D-11 originally painted RLM 75 and repainted? Or should it be RLM 75 as with the D-13, or maybe RLM 81/82 as with the TA 152? and then, just to through a loop into things, how should I paint the cover behind the engine? For the wings there is either RLM 76 or maybe RLM 75, both of which wrapped around under the wing to bare metal, I've already done the gear doors in 76 but I don't think it matters as, using Eduard instructions for inspiration, it seems that even RLM 75 wings with RLM 76 Gear doors happened. The fuselage extension is easy, natural aluminum over painted on the top......but in what color?  And then there is the tail.......

 

 

A torpedo bomber would more likely be in maritime camouflage, as in 72/72 uppers.   You get Ju 188's  in mirror wave over that 

see

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=35278

 

this is ju 88 with light mirror wave uppers and dark on the underside

 

 

there is the much discussed theory that RLM 83 was actually a blue, for over sea use. 

see

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33931

 

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/rlm83darkbluemu_1.htm

 

 

A dark blue fw 190D-12 with mirror wave would look stunning, and very different, but has some factual basis from the info above.

 

HTH

[Graham Boak]

However the blue was used in the Mediterranean not over the North or Norwegian Seas - probably because they aren't blue.  Ditto the Baltic.

 

From what you say, you are thinking of a close-to-real What If,  so bear in mind that the earlier colours were to be used up and the later the subject then the stronger the likelihood of having 8x colours, even on replacement parts.  I'm thinking here of the wider-chord tail, which would be likely on this aircraft and unlikely to have earlier colours.

 

Almost Real What IF, or ARWIF?  I think that could - or at least should - catch on.  All the more grounds for arguments of course - your's isn't real enough!

[nsmekanik]

ARWIF based on Alternate WWII and beyond theme. Luft '46 is just a little to limiting and extreme for my taste. Maybe I should explain,  the idea for this particular plane is based on the Mistel concept as a response to aircraft carriers being inserted into convoy operations.  The scenario is to mount a D-12 R14 on an extended length JU188(similar to the JU88H) and do some high altitude convoy hunting. Once a convoy has been spotted and the carrier located the D-12's (I think there would be several Mistels) would detach and dive down to sea level and make a run on it to hopefully sink it and leave the convoy defenseless agianst the ensuing onslaught. Ideally the D-12' would be fully fueled and also have wing mounted slipper tanks, to assist them in making land and using surprise and speed to attempt to avoid be attacked.

 

And then this is where the 'alternate' vrs. Luft '46 kicks in  what allied aircraft/countermeasures would be fielded to address the threat, within the WWII context of course, keeping it ARWIF in equipment colors and markings. 

[nsmekanik]

I had given the RLM 83 Dark Blue some thought, a google of the Atlantic around British shores does turn some pretty blue pictures, and I seem to recall in the discussion around said color that there was a picture posted of a BV 138 float in Norway that was painted blue, I think a copied it but I'll have to check my computer when I get home. 

  I had decided that I wouldn't go that route as hiding things on land when landed would be a priority........however it is something  I might reconsider ARWIF wise. I agree it might look rather appealing

Edited February 21, 2017 by nsmekanik

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi, nsmekanik

If the theme of discussion is hypothetical convoy protection in 1946 my suggestion is Grumman Bearcat. She had been designed for operations from escort aircraft carriers and with her rapid ascend is exactly what one would need to intercept high level bomber/Mistel raid. In such scenario Grumman Bearcat Mk.Ib (or whichever name you would find suitable for lend-lease Bearcats) with cannon armaments and RATO gear on MAC ships may or may not be a bit of a stretch, but Sea Furies would certainly not be out of place on occasional fleet carrier escort. Cheers

Jure

[Greenshirt]

Allied radar and pickets, useful in the Pacific, would have likely been more prevalent against a rising air threat in the Atlantic.  As Jure notes, the F8F was to be a replacement for the F4F. The MAC ships were temporary expedients until the true CVE were deployed in numbers. By 1945 already over 100, so I'd presume continued use of that platform, in preferably 3 unit groups to ensure 24 hour coverage. So possibly a F8F-1N nightfighter variant would be useful in the ARWIF as the Luftwaffe would likely have radar equipped 188s or He-177 to help locate precisely the escort group. 

[nsmekanik]

I like that Bearcat Idea

[Stonar]

5 hours ago, nsmekanik said:

I like that Bearcat Idea

 

It's fair enough. In the hypothetical scenario in which the MAC ships are acting against an aerial threat rather than a submarine threat (as they were historically) a fighter like that would fit the bill nicely.