A triple Polikarpov "R" project

[JWM]

Hi,

After finishing Norwegian He 115 I am thinking on Hover MF 11. Although my documentation is still not complete to start, no data on interior at all...So I turn to something else. Poleikarpov R5/RZ family.  In my stash I have three kits: 

1. Special Hobby RZ

2. Apex R5

3. MPM (vacu) R5

Boxes looks like this:

 

 

 

 

Besides what I have found in Net I have this nice monography by M.Maslov on Polikarpov R5/RZ family (here Polish translation):

 

 

It contains text infos, photos, drawings and colour profiles on those airplanes. The most interesting are drawings:

I build i will try to follow those drawings: 

 

 

 

The last one is transport version of R5, so called "Limusine". I designed the Apex kit to convert it to this version. This will be winter camo on skis, which is photo in book. The SH will be RZ in Spanish Republican colours, Not decided yet which numbers exactly. The MPM kit I designed to be R5, also not decided yet in which colours finally (Russian or Chineese likely), but for sure on wheels (no ski),

 

The SH kit seems to have a bit too low fin. 

 

The Apex is much more basic if you compare with SH. 

 

In Apex kit the wings are problematic. The shape of wingtips is certainly wrong

 

The chors of upper wing is some 2 mm to long, and the surface is wrong - the ribs looks like pannel lines, not ribs... I am not decided yet what I will do with it. One option is to copy in resin wings of MPM...The other is to rework te surface and diminishing chord. Both options not simple and for sure not fast.

 

And this is MPM - a good qulity but Vacu

 

I start to do some inetrior in APex and MPM kits

 

To be continued

Jerzy Wojtek

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[Crossofiron1971]

Quite a handful!

Good luck!

[JWM]

Hi

There is bigger problem than I thought starting... There is a completly mix about the wing chord. I belived, that both RZ and R5 had the same wing. But the drawings from book ("The BOOK") show different chord: 2.85 mm for RZ and 3.0 for R5 (in 1/72 scale). Both R5 models - Apex and MPM has THE SAME chord, but is is 3.2 mm, so 2 mm more. However, the MPM kit of RZ has 2.85 mm. I have to dig out where is truth... There will be likely rather long pause in this tread, I am affraid...

Cheers

J-W 

[JWM]

First interesting results of googling:

At Russian web page Airwar.Ru the wing surface of R-5 and R-Z are completly deifferent!  For R5 It is 50.20 m²  with wing span 15.30 m http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/r5.html  whereas for R-Z it is 42.52 m² and wingspan 15.50 m! 

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other1/rz.html .

It means, that wings WERE different, at least regarding this source! The difference is about 15%, some comes to lower wing, but rougly speaking if the difference in chord is 3.5 mm at ~3 cm so some 12% percent...Not far indeed

Looking for prove...

Cheers

J-W

[Mitch K]

You know how to pick out the interesting projects, don't you? I shall watch with interest.

[CarLos]

Hi J-Z,

 

I'll follow very closely your triple build as I have the same kits and also want to convert one to a Rafaelyants limousine.

On the RZ wing: it had indeed a smaller chord, reduced by 200 mm in the upper wing and 300 mm in the lower wing - data taken from the French translation of Maslov's book. It also comes with all the text in English, so it may be a good idea to hunt for it.

 

http://artipresse.com/?p=874&lang=fr

 

 

[JWM]

Many thanks Carlos for your help! This means, that if upper wing has chord length difference of 200 mm in reality it is about 3 mm in 1/72 (a bit less in fact). So 3.5 mm difference between Special Hobby RZ and both R5 (MPM & Apex) is for me ok. However it also means, that the chord of lower wing in SH RZ is dramaticly too wide. But about this later... 

Yesterday evening and today morning I was hurrying up to do some basic insides, which allows to made further work on shapes. So I did some work (daylight colours are not so deep blue like on this photo):

 

Having clarified the chord question I turn to so surgery.

Or perhaps slaughtery...

What we have. First it is important to say, that MPM look close to flawless regarding dimensions. Only the opening for pilot is too small and about 1.5 mm to much forward.

1 Apex kit (conversion to end of war "limousine " variant)

The height of fuselage at end of second cockpit is 17.3 mm

The same with close canopy should be 21.5 mm

So I prepare 4.2 mm high element to glue it on fuselage

But I realize that something is differently in model and on drawing with distance to fin

It is much more forward. Moreover, the fuselage is too long in tail area and engine is too short. I set this to have wings in the same position (position of lower wing marked on fuselage):

 Dramaticly wrong (for this version) is fin and rudder:

 

After some surgery:

And filling gaps with filler (Tamiya)

 

The end of fuselage was shortered (using elictric tool)

 

The engine required extension:

So I cut it

Please look at above photo also  to second cockpit - I shifted it end forward and start to make construction for fairing.

I add some filler (I have not done photo showing that some more construction is doen, so the filler is not thick for 4 mm, just about 1 mm). Filller here is Humbrol (has smaller shrinking effect)

 

I moved forward also the tailplane (it is not glued yet)

 

 

Extended engine:

 

 

2. The "Natasha", i.e. R-Z

 

The fin and rudder are much too small (if the drawings are OK...)

So I put a thin plastic card shaped like desired fin/rudder and cut some external part of rudder:

 

 

Add some Tamiya filler (Tamiya filler is stronger than Humbrol, soe for such construction work is better)

 

 

Followng drawing the fuselage is now too long, so I ahd to remove some 1.5 mm from part behing canopy

 

 

So it will be more or less like here:

 

And now the slaughtery part... The 5 mm too wide chord.

 

Ooops - some photos did not uploaded . I will finish in second post after a while...

Cheers

J-W

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[JWM]

Back to chord - as you see it is 24 mm, should be about 19 mm.

I decided to cut this excess 5 mm from inside of wing:

 

Perhaps this is a not best solution. Perhaps better would be just cut it from front (leading edge). But this would produce very thick leading edge and the profile would be not realistic also. THis will reguired a lot of work with geting back to nice surface,I am affraid. Therfore I am calling it "slaughtery"...

AFter cut with some initial filler:

 

So that is it for toaday. 

In paralel I started to work on Hit Kit Breguet 19.... will see how it will be...

To be continued

Cheers

J-W

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[JWM]

Some progress of today's evening. 

Natasha after first sanding

Certainly need some more work

The bottom wings after first sanding

The rear of fuselage should be rised, the top line will cross fin above tailplane, not below it as it is in kit. Of course accordingly to plans, which I follow...This rising up is done together with second portion of Humbrol filler:

 

 

 The same with wings - second portion of filler after sanding:

 

R5 by MPM fuselage after some sanding of joints

 

 

and finally the limousine back fairing got his basic shape:

Small use of filler is needed here also.

 

Still not decided on R5 (bomber, not limousine) final painting scheme:

1. Russian from 1939 invasion on Eastern Poland? BTW - I found it interesting, that in Polish edition of Maslov book (THE BOOK)  one profile is named, that it is from this campaign, the same profile in French edition is subscribed :Ukraine, 1936. Both could be true (the same paintig for 3 years) but the trget reader has here some influence perhaps...

2. Mongolian from Nomonhan Incident named also  Khankin-Gol battles ? (also not sure painting scheme)

3. Russian from 1941 

4. Chineese from Sinkiang (it is described 1934 or 35 - maybe a bit too early for my collection time framework)

Have to decide. I am interesting - do you have any suggestions/motivations?

To be continue

Cheers

J-W

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[TonyTiger66]

This is fascinating J-W.

 

I have built the Apex kit before, but I had no drawings. I did not realise it had so many shape issues. I did quite a bit of filling and reprofiling around the engine cover/exhaust area. Just from photographs, I tried to make it look more like the way it appears.

 

Unfortunatlely I ruined the kit when I tried rigging. I have kept it, hoping one day to repair it. Now your build here gives me ideas to chop it up and make it more accurate.

 

I have not seen the MPM R-5 before; it looks very nice! 

 

I had read somewhere else about the Special Hobby R-Z having incorrect lower wing profile, but didn't know about the other shape issues.

 

This thread is very useful and informative J-W, it will help anyone to build one of these accurately. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Best regards

TonyT

[JWM]

Tony,

Many thanks :).I am sorry about your R5. If you work a lot on re-shaping engine it can be considered to reconstruct it with some miner additional reshaping. This my R5 from Apex has different tail section from regular bomber.  However, if I may suggest - in Rumourmonger section some  time ago was info about planned release of new R-5 in different scales (broad range - perhaps it was 1:144, 1:72 and 1:48) ). It would be wise to wait with purchasing  until it will not appear, perhaps... I decided that it is the last moment to have some motivation for this build of kits which I have in stash for years now . Leter, when more proper (I hope) kit will arrive, the old kits becames hard to sell and hard to built also...

I am intending to do correction in nose (engine) section after careful studies of photos and drawing. The wings were the most challanging

Best regards

J-W

[Mitch K]

Jerzy, I think that without your projects the filler manufacturers would go out of business! Loving this thread and looking forward to updates.

[cduckworth]

You are certainly hanging in there; I would have tossed the two inaccurate kits and worked on the SH version by now. You have more patience than me. Looking forward to seeing the SCW colors on the SH model. 

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by cduckworth

[JWM]

Some upgrade from today. 

First I noticed that Natasha fuselage end went in a bit wrong angle, what made the tailplane inclinated to the line of bottom of canopy. I cut end of fuselage from top and sides (without cutting bottom) and add soem 1 mm spacer to correct angle:

 

Now the angle look OK for me:

 

Of course some filler (Mitch, you are  right! - the producers of fillers would collaps without me)

 

A started to cut also MPM R-5. The top of fuselage is too squared. It should be more round between pilot position and engine, iike it is in Apex kit. Since it is vacu I cannot sand it. So I cut it:

 

And glued inside a piece of plastic card

Then added filler.

 

I have checked the length of bot version of R5 (bomber and limousine)

 

 

It looks the same. So I had to glue back 1 mm in the rear of fuselage to the Apex kit. Now both models (Apex and MPM) will have the same length.

 

I rounded  ends of lower wing of Natasha.  I sand the surface using pen wrapped around with sanding paper "600" (wet). I hope this will reconstruct a bit fabric surface of wing. This is not finish. I put some more filler on after toaday sanding. For sure I will have to paint it a bit before glueing with fuselage, just to see how badly is destroyed fabric structure, or how I managed to reconstruct it...

That is all for today. Tomorrow next portion  of sanding and applying filler likely...

Cheers

J-W 

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[JWM]

Today's progress:

I started to upgrade a bit engines of both R5s.

I cut out openings for exhaust pipes (in future). Please note that they have a bit different exhaust ppipes on drawings. Here is MPM with rounded (first approximation) fuselage behind engine and with some filler added to reshape a bit engine:

 

 

Similar in case of Apex model

 

Some work on Natasha (RZ). Sanded excess of filler:

Also on bottom wings

Here  I introduce a "special tool" a small cylinder wrapped around with two sided scotch tape and then wrapped  with sanding paper 600. It makes easily the structure of ribs when sanded wet.

To be continued

Jerzy-Wojtek

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[JWM]

P.S.

One more photo:

the new position of lower wing:

 

 

J-W

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[TheBaron]

That's some variation across those kits. You have your hands full there J-W. Absorbing work to watch in progress. Good luck with this!

Tony 

[JWM]

47 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

That's some variation across those kits. You have your hands full there J-W. Absorbing work to watch in progress. Good luck with this!

Thak you Tony. Indeed - they are different in places, where they should be the same or very similar... I am not expecting 100% success but I will try to do my best here

Cheers

J-W

[TonyTiger66]

Great work J-W. A nice solution to sanding back the fabric texture to the lower wing. The change to accurate size of wing makes a big difference to the look of the model. 

 

I like also the little change in angle of the tail  .

 

Great stuff

TonyT

 

 

[JWM]

Some progres for today evening.

The noses of both R5 after first sanding

 

They start looks similar one to another. OK - just a bit now...

 

The bottom view of RZ with filler

 

 and from top

 

 

 

The tailplane problem appeared

 

 

Left is like M.Maslow's drawing suggest, the right on is out of box.

Both reshaped

 

 

The problem remains with number of ribs in tailplane,,,

 

The fin&rudder

I have to make some structure

Started by this:

 

 

And them cover it a bit with Tamiya putty

 

 

 

To be continued

J-W

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[ROBOT]

Some hefty scratchbuilding and improving of nostalgic kits here... !

 

Im totally in !!!

Thanks for sharing, Olli

[JWM]

I started  work on upper wings. The vacu one needs some enforcement

 

do not worry about strange proportion - this photo  is cut out from a wide angle photo. Wing is symmetric in reality

 

Noses of both R5 still needs some shaping work, but they start to look similar

 

 

 

A fin/rudder and rear of fuselage reshape works in Natasha are almost finished

 

 

 

Next work is adding ribs intead of panels lines in Apex model. 

I started on tailplane

 

 

This is techniqe which I used also for fin/rudder work of Natasha. But it takes a lot of time,

The wing are much bigger so more demanding of labour and efforts. I invented a simple trick which shorted time very much and simplified work.

I wraped aroud wing thin sprue positioning it on right place on top (and glueing with Tamiya low-viscosity cement)

 

 

whereas on bottoms I made it shifted by a single rib (of course no glue!)

 

 

when ribs on top surface were fixed by glue I cut with sharp knife each "rib" at tailing edge, change the angle and glue it the same way.

The results before any sanding looks OK for me:

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be continued

J-W

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[JWM]

Here is very nice paintig scheme for Natasha.

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/r-5/tapani/LN-045.htm

There are some differences between what is on photo and in profile (look for position of colours bands on rudder and number 18 ) . What to say? - I am temptated....

Cheers

J-W

[JWM]

Progress for today:

 The wings- the ribs added

 

Some corrections needed, still. 

 

The vacu wings gleud also

 

 

 

I am basicly made conopy for limousine

 

 

To be shortered a bit.

 

I strated to work on fuselage details on bomber

 

 

Finally I made some diluted enamel paiting on re-shaped aread of Natasha, just to see what is needed here to work on more

 

 

 

To be continued...

J-W

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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[JWM]

Hi,

I was doing some progress in last days but not published it.... 

I made some careful measurements and it appeard, that MPM R5 has about 1.5 mm too long nose. I cut it.

 

And then glued on place.

 

It is dificult to look inside - I just wanted to show some seat and seat belt

 

 

I made a canopy for limousine version. It is made just out of a junk - a cover plastic from a toy of my grandson. Sometimes I am using such "ready made" parts. This was some battery cover or something like that.

Here with masking for windows

 

 

Both noses are back in position

 

I drilled ventilation and carburator openings as well as MG for bomber,

On web page of Russsian museum of aviation I looked through the walkaround of R-5.

I've seen there that tail -fuselage join should be like that:

 

Today 's evening I worked on some surface elemnets. The limousine looks now like that:

I painted cabin of limousine with diluted Humbrol 128 paint.

 

 

To be continued

Jerzy-Wojtek

Edited August 21, 2017 by JWM
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