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Neville Dukes' AK578- P-40B or P-40E?


FloydWerner

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I'm trying to do Neville Duke's airplane AK578 as depicted on the Xtradecal sheet, Early P-40-Part 2.  The problem comes in when I did some research that apparently AK578 is a Kittyhawk and not a Tomahawk.  Is Xtradecals wrong?  There is conflicting information on the 112 page.  One place has it as a Tomahawk with the picture of only the front end.  The picture is difficult to make out if it is a Dark Earth/Middlestone/Azure or TLS scheme.  Then in the serial number portion of the page it describes AK578 as a Kittyhawk Mk.I.  Another of my trusted sources, Roy Sutherland at Barracudacals, has GA D as a Kittyhawk as well.  I'm so confused. 

 

Can any of you shed light on this subject aircraft?  Is it a TLS "D" or a DE/MS/AZ GA D?  I want to do this right.  Or do I need to pick another aircraft.  I really want to do a sharkmouthed desert scheme 112 aircraft.  I'm trying to use the Xtracals as I never have and they were given to me for this build.

 

Thanks

Floyd

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I think neither.  AK578 would be a P-40D equivalent, therefore looking like a P-40E but with only four wing guns.  It would involve some rescribing assuming drawings for the P-40D are available.

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AK578 was Kittyhawk Mk.I GA-V which Duke flew regularly during Jan-Feb '42 and in which he claimed 2 victories over MC200s on 14 Feb. The Tomahawks he flew and scored victories in Nov-Dec '41 were:-

 

AK402 GA-F (CR42, 109F, G50 - he was shot down in this aircraft by Ofw Otto Schultz of II/JG27 on 30 Nov '41)

AN337 GA-F  (MC200, Ju87 prob)

AK254 GA-L (109F, Ju87 & Ju52 probs)

 

Duke specifically mentions 6 x .50 in his first assigned Kitty AK595 GA-Y on 7 Jan '42 but he crash landed this aircraft on 11 Jan '42 following a cockpit fire. He doesn't mention reduced armament in AK578 which seems odd. Incidentally both the 112 Sqn tribute website and Robin Brown in his book 'Shark Squadron' (Crecy Books, 1994) show the same photo of GA-X, upturned after a nose over on 27 Jan '42, and identify it as AK583 but it clearly has 6 x .50. According to that website there were other GA-X on squadron around that time - AK658, AK678 and AK703 - but Brown does not record code letters for AK658 or AK678 in his listing and reports AK703 in service only during August 1942. So either the photo has been misidentified as to date and/or serial number or those "first 20" Kittys were fitted with 6 x .50 for operations. 

 

Nick

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10 hours ago, Nick Millman said:

AK578 was Kittyhawk Mk.I GA-V which Duke flew regularly during Jan-Feb '42 and in which he claimed 2 victories over MC200s on 14 Feb. The Tomahawks he flew and scored victories in Nov-Dec '41 were:-

 

AK402 GA-F (CR42, 109F, G50 - he was shot down in this aircraft by Ofw Otto Schultz of II/JG27 on 30 Nov '41)

AN337 GA-F  (MC200, Ju87 prob)

AK254 GA-L (109F, Ju87 & Ju52 probs)

 

Duke specifically mentions 6 x .50 in his first assigned Kitty AK595 GA-Y on 7 Jan '42 but he crash landed this aircraft on 11 Jan '42 following a cockpit fire. He doesn't mention reduced armament in AK578 which seems odd. Incidentally both the 112 Sqn tribute website and Robin Brown in his book 'Shark Squadron' (Crecy Books, 1994) show the same photo of GA-X, upturned after a nose over on 27 Jan '42, and identify it as AK583 but it clearly has 6 x .50. According to that website there were other GA-X on squadron around that time - AK658, AK678 and AK703 - but Brown does not record code letters for AK658 or AK678 in his listing and reports AK703 in service only during August 1942. So either the photo has been misidentified as to date and/or serial number or those "first 20" Kittys were fitted with 6 x .50 for operations. 

 

Nick

Well that settles that little bit of misinformation on the Xtradecal sheet.  Now to see what I can come up with a sharkmouth.  I have the Barracudacal sheet maybe incorporate the Xtradecal Sharkmouth which is supposedly designed for the Airfix kit and Barracudacals, Squadron codes for GA-F. 

9 hours ago, Hornet133 said:

AK570-589 were P-40D airframes with 4 x .50 Cal

AK590 onwards were P-40E airframes with 6 x .50 Cal

I'll have to make this one of these days. 

Thanks all for the information

Floyd

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12 hours ago, Hornet133 said:

AK570-589 were P-40D airframes with 4 x .50 Cal

AK590 onwards were P-40E airframes with 6 x .50 Cal

Ship 1 was AK 571

AK 571 to AK 590 inclusive had 4 guns, 695 rounds/gun

then AK 591 & subsequent had 6 guns, 235 rounds/gun

H87 had british line color code and P40, U.S. line color code

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22 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

 

Are those the correct figures for rounds per gun?  Seems like a heck of a change.

 

bob

 

H87A2&3 as I wrote above

 

" P40D: provison are made for 1000 rounds(250/gun) of ammunition with links as design load and 2460(615/gun) as alternate load

P40E: 1410(235/gun) or 1686 (N° 1: 312 rounds, N°2: 291 & N°3: 240)"

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18 hours ago, BS_w said:

Ship 1 was AK 571

AK 571 to AK 590 inclusive had 4 guns, 695 rounds/gun

then AK 591 & subsequent had 6 guns, 235 rounds/gun

H87 had british line color code and P40, U.S. line color code

 

Further to my post above, there is another (different) photograph of AK583 in Michael Lavigne and Wg Cdr James F Edwards 'Kittyhawks Over The Sands' (Quebec 2002) credited to W J Whitside. It has the code letter H which according to the 112 Sqn tribute website preceded X. However the photograph caption in Lavigne's book states that GA-H AK583 was a long-serving 112 Sqn aircraft flown on his first operational sorties by F/O Garn "Gary" Wright RCAF in July 1942. Wright flew a total of five sorties in this aircraft in early July 1942 and it was also flown by P/O L H "Bunny" Curphey RCAF on two sorties during the same month.  If this is the case and the 27 Jan '42 photo of GA-X is indeed AK583 then the code letter H antedated X. The Whitside photograph clearly shows 6 x .50 armament. 

 

In addition to aircraft technical manuals there are manufacturer and service modification sheets that provided for the updating of airframes. In-service copies of the technical manuals usually have a history of document control where the modification sheets are recorded (if they were carried out as required) but that is not always the case with extant un-issued copies which might pre-date the mods. Therefore what is in the manual and in serial number "lore" does not always reflect the in-service practice of modifying, updating, re-fitting, retro-fitting or re-building individual airframes. You would need the 112 Sqn Engineering Officer's copy of the technical manual to determine what was being done in-service within that unit. I know from personal experience the difficulties caused where two people are attempting to consult different versions of technical manuals, imperfectly updated, in order to determine the correct spare parts required.

 

Nick   

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There seem to be a number of "if"s floating around this identification.  I suggest that bearing in mind the engineering changes needed to alter a 4-gun wing to a 6-gun wing, it would be much easier to provide the aircraft with a new wing at some stage?  

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I never found a picture or technical drawing about 20mm cannon fitted under the P40D wing . It was expected to install it between the sta 81.5 and 100

 

it was not possible to add two guns to the P40D wing, it was necessary to change the wing and the gun charging valves controller.

the structural layout, reinforcement, compartments of gun bays were differents

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  • 1 month later...

From a modelling perspective I picked up an old 1/48 Hasegawa Kittyhawk Mark 1 limited edition boxing at my local hobbyshop (in Jakarta) only last week. Seems to have been there for a while. The in box decal options were for two Neville Duke 112sqn aircraft. Won't comment on the accuracy of the decals (including an option for AK578 with four guns) but was very surprised to find Hasegawa had tooled the relevant inserts for the wings (both guns and ejection port inserts) for the 4 gun P-40D/ early E option. Its the first time I have seen this in a Hasegawa boxing but shows some good attention to detail on their part.

 

Here is a build of this boxing, which may date back as far as 2005/6 according to Scalemates (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/184682-hasegawa-09635-kittyhawk-mk-i):

 

 

Edited by Biggles81
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On 2/12/2017 at 2:09 PM, BS_w said:


I never found a picture or technical drawing about 20mm cannon fitted under the P40D wing . It was expected to install it between the sta 81.5 and 100

 

it was not possible to add two guns to the P40D wing, it was necessary to change the wing and the gun charging valves controller.

the structural layout, reinforcement, compartments of gun bays were differents

 

The 20mm guns happened at least once, but there's very little in the way of a paper trail beyond reports that the AAF was about to install and test the guns, and a later request fo additional 20mm ammunition.  There was also a provision to remove a .50 from each wing on the P-40E to install two 20s.  There's nothing I've yet found that indicates how the 20s were to be installed (internally? underwing gondola?) but I'm still searching.  We've recently uncovered a new section on armament in the Sarah Clark (Wright Field) collection, and hope to one day discover the complete report with drawings and photos, but I've been after this for 15 years and had no luck so far...

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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For curiosity

There was a drawing of 20mm Oerlikon installed internally on P36A wing, it was a project only. As the ammunition drum was

on the right side and ejection chute on the left, these cannons were assymetric to the aircraft centerline. The right cannon was nearest of centerline than the left cannon.

Drum+gun+chute were installed in the all the space between Sta 57 & 78.

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I've just finished his Autobiography, Test Pilot (brilliant and recommend it) He called it a "Kittyhawk with six 0.5 " guns no serial info.There are a couple of pictures in the book but don't show the number.

 

He was a real Gentleman. I went to Edgley's Old Sarum to work on the Optica. I kept hearing people saying what does Neville say about that? Ask Neville about this. Will Neville approve? After a couple of days of Neville every half hour. I asked who is this Neville? He's one of the Test Pilots, Neville Duke ! What? The Neville Duke? Yes . Couldn't believe it. He was a test pilot, Edgley's on Opticas in the 80s. I built the Instrument Binnacles, cut every hole for instruments and King Avionic suite.in the panel, hell of a job the first time. Pre test fight de snagging. He'd poke his head through the door, everything  OK for first thing tomorrow? I've been there since 8am and its now gone 9pm and loads to do. Should be. Can you do something with the door handle ? (it was an Alfa Romeo door handle) It needs some kind of locking arrangement because I could knock it to open. Yes,I could drill it and fit a Terry Clip to go through the handle and bracket with cable attached to the handle bracket so it doesn't get lost. Can you show me please? So I got clip and cable showed him where it would all go. Yes that's fine, thank you. I'll sign it off, Please do both sides like you showed me. What about this Binnacle? Can you do something about this, that and that bit there and so it went.

He'd climb out the Optica after a flight ,he was really tall, covered head to toe in swarf after flinging it 'round the sky even after we hoovered every visible bit. he found it ,looked like a Christmas Tree .I think I just finished the loose article check !  No edge to him he was a pleasure to deal with and he valued Ground Crew.

The other two pilots were ex ETPS like Neville but couldn't touch him flying that Optica in a 3 kite display.

 RIP

Sorry for the OT bit.

Edited by bzn20
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bzn20, I used to see him at Popham from time to time and he was a true gentleman. He was exactly what your fighter pilot heroes should be, not the arrogant self-serving pigs that one or two of them (famous names too!) were. Very valued conversations.

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Actually, if and when I ever get around to a) making something and b: a spitfire, it will be the Mark VIII Neville jumped from in Italy but I need someone to make masks or decals, and yeach me how to airbrush, and learn the patience not to naff it up, and have time, and stop being ill and get my life back.

Edited by melvyn hiscock
unwanted smiley
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  • 4 years later...
On 2/11/2017 at 4:07 PM, BS_w said:

Are those the correct figures for rounds per gun?  Seems like a heck of a change.

Makes sense to me; with six guns there is less room to house that amount of ammunition; the weight of an additional heavy Browning .50cal gun would also seem to me to be a reason for fewer rounds per gun, as having all that weight outboard would limit the roll rate; plus, with six guns, the cone of fire would be more effective, so fewer rounds would need to be carried. Just uninformed guesses on my part, but when the F4F Wildcat went from four to six guns, the same reduction in ammunition carried  took place.

Mike 

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@72modeler,

 

found in Kittyhawk I technical manual, the loading diagram gives(weight in pounds)


H87A2/P40D
- 4 guns .50 =309
- 2400rds=738
total 1047

 

H87A3/P40E
- 6 guns .50= 463
- 1686rds=506
total= 969

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Might be worth contacting Special Hobby to see if they will send you the decal sheet for their P40E/Kittyhawk 1a as it has pretty much all you need (shark mouth, squadron codes etc.) and Xtradecal do a sheet of white RAF code letters so you can then pick which ever example you wish.

 

Last time I contacted SH was for a new canopy for my P40E and they sent it completely f.o.c. and quickly as well.

 

Regards

Colin.

Edited by fishplanebeer
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