B17F COLOUR ??

[MalX]

Does anybody know this fueselage colour, the Humbrol code.......... it looks like the most common colour for the B17F, but it's not the same shade as Memphis Belle i think....that's more of a brown shade with Camouflage patches all over it

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by MalX

[Tbolt]

It's Olive Drab 41. OD varied in colour and changed quite a bit with weathering. Read some more here, 

Humbrol 155 is a fairly good OD, which I sometimes add some darker green too, to get a different less weathered shade.

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tbolt

[Graham Boak]

It is meant to be the same colour, but Olive Drab has been pictured in a number of different ways.  To be fair, it was not produced to the same standard of hue that we expect from modern colours, or even most camouflage colours of the time.  To my eye, as to yours, this one appears a little too green, at least in that light on my monitor, but it isn't outside the possible range.  Maybe too glossy, but that may be more a matter of presentation than any attempt to match the original.

 

I wouldn't choose Humbrol for Olive Drab, not the wartime version which (as you say) often appeared brownish at least after weathering.  They do a reasonable match for the darker postwar Dark Olive Drab, but this does appear too dark when applied to model aircraft.  Xtracolour do (or did) a Faded Olive Drab which is worth considering, but any of a range of olive greens can be used.  Colourcoats does an Olive Drab which was matched to a mint example of a US Army motorbike, fresh from its original box, but again this is only one possible variant.

 

One thing to bear in mind of B-17s is that the fin is often a darker (greener?) colour than the body of the aircraft, because it was built in a different factory.  The fabric-covered areas soon fade to a lighter and greyer shade - as well represented on this model but also many aircraft had patches of Medium Green on the leading and trailing edges.  Medium Green appears to have kept its colour better, and usually appears darker against the Olive Drab of the aircraft.

[Tbolt]

13 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

It is meant to be the same colour, but Olive Drab has been pictured in a number of different ways.  To be fair, it was not produced to the same standard of hue that we expect from modern colours, or even most camouflage colours of the time.  To my eye, as to yours, this one appears a little too green, at least in that light on my monitor, but it isn't outside the possible range.  Maybe too glossy, but that may be more a matter of presentation than any attempt to match the original.

 

I wouldn't choose Humbrol for Olive Drab, not the wartime version which (as you say) often appeared brownish at least after weathering.  They do a reasonable match for the darker postwar Dark Olive Drab, but this does appear too dark when applied to model aircraft.  Xtracolour do (or did) a Faded Olive Drab which is worth considering, but any of a range of olive greens can be used.  Colourcoats does an Olive Drab which was matched to a mint example of a US Army motorbike, fresh from its original box, but again this is only one possible variant.

 

One thing to bear in mind of B-17s is that the fin is often a darker (greener?) colour than the body of the aircraft, because it was built in a different factory.  The fabric-covered areas soon fade to a lighter and greyer shade - as well represented on this model but also many aircraft had patches of Medium Green on the leading and trailing edges.  Medium Green appears to have kept its colour better, and usually appears darker against the Olive Drab of the aircraft.

 

Humbrol 155 OD is quite a brown shade and not that dark, though in the past I have found up to four noticeably different shades from different tins!

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tbolt

[MalX]

thanks for the replies, this will be my build thread.

 

yes Humbrol 155 looks ok i've ordered 2 tins, i have plenty of other colours if needed be to mix up.........it looks slightly greener/yellow than 155, but it's damned hard to tell, ``texas raiders`` looks close too.

 

the kits-world decals are missing the tail fin markings plus a few others too, i've had to buy another 2 sheets, this is a little bit annoying...watch out for this guys !!!

 

the fins are a lighter shade of 155, i chose this rather than ``shamrock special`` (Revell) because i'm not too keen on it's blotchy  camouflage.........................the B17G will be easy ``nine o nine`` is the same colour as ``Texas Raiders`` and i have plenty of transfers left over for a future all Aluminium version

 

their 1/72 B17s are miles better kits than their much older 1/48s..............better thought out too, especially the much easier windows...........

Edited February 9, 2017 by MalX

[Tbolt]

If you are doing a build thread it would be better in the Work in Progress sub forum.

 

Yes unfortunately with some subjects Kits World like to put a lot of aircraft on one sheet and make you be a separate sheet with the codes and bits on, not great if you only want to build one or two aircraft from the sheet.

 

It always hard to accurately match colours when you are working from photos, especially period ones, so I don't waste too much time trying to get accurate shades from something that isn't necessarily accurate.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tbolt

[Work In Progress]

You may have noticed that within the last two weeks we've had a massive thread on Olive Drab 41,  which will lead you to the full available wisdom of those here on the subject.

Looking forward to seeing your build thread in this forum:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/52-work-in-progress-aircraft/

[Michael51]

19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

It is meant to be the same colour, but Olive Drab has been pictured in a number of different ways.  To be fair, it was not produced to the same standard of hue that we expect from modern colours, or even most camouflage colours of the time.  To my eye, as to yours, this one appears a little too green, at least in that light on my monitor, but it isn't outside the possible range.  Maybe too glossy, but that may be more a matter of presentation than any attempt to match the original.

 

I wouldn't choose Humbrol for Olive Drab, not the wartime version which (as you say) often appeared brownish at least after weathering.  They do a reasonable match for the darker postwar Dark Olive Drab, but this does appear too dark when applied to model aircraft.  Xtracolour do (or did) a Faded Olive Drab which is worth considering, but any of a range of olive greens can be used.  Colourcoats does an Olive Drab which was matched to a mint example of a US Army motorbike, fresh from its original box, but again this is only one possible variant.

 

One thing to bear in mind of B-17s is that the fin is often a darker (greener?) colour than the body of the aircraft, because it was built in a different factory.  The fabric-covered areas soon fade to a lighter and greyer shade - as well represented on this model but also many aircraft had patches of Medium Green on the leading and trailing edges.  Medium Green appears to have kept its colour better, and usually appears darker against the Olive Drab of the aircraft.

 

Graham's observations warrant close attention if you are chasing the idea of 'Olive Drab'.

 

Just how varied the colour could be, and for what parts of the aircraft, (particularly the flying control surfaces,) is very evident in Roger Freeman's The Mighty Eighth in Colour. 

 

Setting aside the further complexities of what film brand and type was used to capture the original image and what subsequent reproductions have done to further distort them, finding the 'correct' OD is a bit tricky.

 

When in doubt, I would think going to the faded end of the spectrum would likely produce the better result.

 

The KitsWorld greens are, well, a bit too green.

 

Michael

 

 

[MalX]

 

there we go, it's hard to tell but i'd say it's the same colour as my disaster............the one at the top looks far too green to me.

 

it's olive drab and finished off semi-matt, it's probably painted gloss nowadays because it's easier to maintain for air shows etc..........like the Vulcan was, far too shiny and nothing like it looked back in 1976 !

 

at sunset that colour will appear far more orange/brown and yet again totally different depending on this that and the other.

 

so i'd say Olive Drab, weathered over in sandy brown............then certain panels re-painted in pure Olive drab ( to look like repaired battle damage)

 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by MalX

[Work In Progress]

Those three pics of the B-17G painted up as Memphis Belle (it's not the real Memphis Belle, that's a B-17F and a non-flier) are really of no value at all as a reference point for what any actual WW2 B-17 painted in in Olive Drab 41 looked like. It's actually a much later non-combatant aircraft painted in a very loose approximation of the real Memphis Belle's colour scheme and markings for the 1990 movie. It's no more authentic than the paint used on the Spitfires and Buchons in the 1969 Battle of Britain movie.

 

This is a WW2 B-17 painted in Olive Drab 41, a completely different look.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Work In Progress

[bobmig]

Actually, the colours on the Memphis Belle impersonator are quite good... for a factory fresh finish.

You can see what the real Memphis Belle looked like in this wartime documentary (which in my opinion is a much better film that the silly Hollywood version). 

 

[Tbolt]

10 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

You may have noticed that within the last two weeks we've had a massive thread on Olive Drab 41,  which will lead you to the full available wisdom of those here on the subject.

Looking forward to seeing your build thread in this forum:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/52-work-in-progress-aircraft/

 

That's why I gave the link to that thread

[MalX]

it's very hard to tell from that film, because the red tail i quickly saw looked pink/grey  that is a really old low quality film, i'd be very careful of that

 

i think it's as per the nose art photos or the Douglas Marauder...olive drab with sandy tints but only just................ i think you're seeing it catching sunlight and it's therefore appearing a different colour.....very hard to tell 

 

i would say to be safe, it's the top Memphis Belle photo, the very top of the fueselage where it's catching the light....i can pick that out on Corell right now

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by MalX

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

Those three pics of the B-17G painted up as Memphis Belle (it's not the real Memphis Belle, that's a B-17F and a non-flier) are really of no value at all as a reference point for what any actual WW2 B-17 painted in in Olive Drab 41 looked like. It's actually a much later non-combatant aircraft painted in a very loose approximation of the real Memphis Belle's colour scheme and markings for the 1990 movie. It's no more authentic than the paint used on the Spitfires and Buchons in the 1969 Battle of Britain movie.

 

This is a WW2 B-17 painted in Olive Drab 41, a completely different look.

 

It was a colour made from unstable constituents and it weathered rapidly and badly. Many also struggle to accept how dark Neutral Gray was and want to apply something closer to Light Gull Gray in its place - preserved aircraft in entirely non-authentic paints probably have a lot to do with that too. That and poor quality period colour film.

 

Your observation about the Battle of Britain film made me chuckle too, because despite all documented evidence of RLM70 and 71 being dark and very low contrast when applied together, many modellers seem pathologically incapable of not lightening RLM71 to death until it gives a high contrast splinter scheme like in the BOB movie.

[MalX]

that's the colour ..............but it doesn't look right to me, well um ..tricky

 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by MalX

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

You're on a hiding to nothing comparing RGB renders to photographs.

[MalX]

 this is heavily brown tinted.........which is it because i'll have to make a decision soon 

 

 

<Airliners.net photo removed.  Please link to their SITE, rather than leaching their images directly>

Edited February 28, 2017 by Mike
Removal of Airliners.net photo.

[dogsbody]

First you have to know where a particular B-17 was built and by who. Boeing, Lockheed or Douglas. Who supplied the paint for those builders?

Remember the old saying: close enough for government work.

 

 

Chris

[Graham Boak]

And making comparison with other colours can be dodgy in itself: RLM71 has little contrast with RLM70 when new but does fade lighter and gives a noticeable contrast - although agreed nothing like that in the film.  Unless maybe very very old and faded until undercoat is showing through... in which case heaven only knows what both colours looked like!

 

The light blue under that B-17 isn't a good comparison either.  Although light blue was seen on some early USAF heavies this is a modern photo and although the OD seems quite convincing it really should be ignored.

 

I recall an old modeller's guide to camouflage - possibly the first postwar Harleyford publication as I don't have it to check - saying that the first USAF C-47s seen were camouflaged in Dark Earth.  (It's the sort of thing that sticks in your memory.)  They were in OD41 - about three different shades if you see b&w photos of them - and clearly gave an impression of being brown.

[bobmig]

You can't really be dogmatic about colours derived from a photograph... too many variables such as lighting, type of film, processing, storage, exposure, display monitor variances, enhancements, etc., etc. For example, here is the same photo from two different sites. Each, on its own, might look "acceptable", but comparing the two...

Bob

[MalX]

YES........... i'll go for the Memphis Belle colour, unless of course somebody knows exactly what it looked like.........whatever the case, she's bound to look sandy brown after weathering anyway, similar to Texas Raiders

 

i'll start her monday, i've got to go to work this weekend 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by MalX

[Work In Progress]

Please stop calling it Memphis Belle, because it isn't, and you're liable to confuse someone in the future. Call it the fake Memphis Belle or the movie Memphis Belle if you must.

 

Memphis Belle is this aeroplane

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/FactSheets/Display/tabid/509/Article/195966/boeing-b-17f-memphis-belle.aspx

 

Even the nose art is totally different. The film people were paid for criteria other than historical authenticity.

[Nick Millman]

Although manufactured to the same colour standard it was paint on the metal and dope on the fabric covered components, with different formula and different application methods.  

 

Spec.24114 required a primer coat of zinc chromate and two coats of OD41 lacquer (or enamel later) on metal whilst on fabric it was at least three brushed coats of un-thinned yellow or cream semi-pigmented nitrate dope, followed by at least one sprayed coat of thinned yellow or cream dope and at least two sprayed coats of OD41 fully pigmented nitrate dope. 

 

As Wiki states* "the colour of an object is a complex result of its surface properties, its transmission properties, and its emission properties, all of which contribute to the mix of wavelengths in the light leaving the surface of the object. The perceived colour is then further conditioned by the nature of the ambient illumination, and by the colour properties of other objects nearby, and via other characteristics of the perceiving eye and brain." The transmission properties are affected by pigment particle size and opacity.

 

* I added the 'u' to color . . . 

 

Nick

 

[elger]

FWIW, I think that Margaret Bourke-White's kodachrome photos look fairly natural, and to me, the OD of the B-17s looks brownish. But it would seem that the pictures were taken in the fall, with a low sun, late afternoon.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294284/WWII-color-Rare-photos-1942-Flying-Fortress-bombers-heroic-crews-The-Mighty-8th-Command.html

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by elger

[Work In Progress]

Well posted, top material there