B17F COLOUR ??

[Coors54]

53 minutes ago, MalX said:

SHE'S RUINED AND  I'M VERY CROSS ABOUT THIS............you should have realised she'd be impossible to correct before you posted in, because those wings are now ruined, she's had 3 coats of tinted paint over green.......... it all came off instantly and it is impossible to patch up.....you know how hard it is to redo it now, the whole model needs to be repainted from scratch......... the tail, the fueselage, everything, because it is impossible to match in the wings only.........

 

it is too much work to keep redoing it, she's now a write off............that model took ages to do, why didn't you keep your mouth firmly shut before posting in, realising that i would try to correct it ?????????

 

 

Wow, this thread is a wild mix of good information and........?

[scotthldr]

55 minutes ago, MalX said:

SHE'S RUINED AND  I'M VERY CROSS ABOUT THIS............you should have realised she'd be impossible to correct before you posted in, because those wings are now ruined, she's had 3 coats of tinted paint over green.......... it all came off instantly and it is impossible to patch up.....you know how hard it is to redo it now, the whole model needs to be repainted from scratch......... the tail, the fueselage, everything, because it is impossible to match in the wings only.........

 

it is too much work to keep redoing it, she's now a write off............that model took ages to do, why didn't you keep your mouth firmly shut before posting in, realising that i would try to correct it ?????????

 

 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, MalX said:

no, members kept posting in giving different advice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

  You came on here looking for advice and advice, sound advice at that was duly given by several members, you however chose to ignore it.  Maybe it's your attitude and lack of skill that has led to this modelling disaster. As 'dogsbody' and 'bzn20' have said before me maybe you should've done more research on the subject. Blaming your own modelling mishaps on the good people that tried to help you is a mistake.

[Nick Millman]

"One wheel on my wagon and I'm still rolling along . . . "

 

Re-invented wheels at that . . . 

 

Nick

[MalX]

1 hour ago, scotthldr said:

 

  You came on here looking for advice and advice, sound advice at that was duly given by several members, you however chose to ignore it.  Maybe it's your attitude and lack of skill that has led to this modelling disaster. As 'dogsbody' and 'bzn20' have said before me maybe you should've done more research on the subject. Blaming your own modelling mishaps on the good people that tried to help you is a mistake.

i've been modelling all my life, i changed my model constantly due to listening to members and not the other way around, the problem is the advice given wasn't the same from different members...........i.e ``maybe browner...........no maybe greener due to her maybe only surviving a few missions``, the advice was contradictory.

 

the streaks on the wing?..........yet again one member is contradicting another, it's hardly surprising the model was ruined.

 

should have done my own research ??? yes you're right, but unlike Texas Raiders, there are no accurate photos of what this B17 looked like after 30 missions, but all i got from members were contradictions.

 

the model was ruined anyway and this part is DEFINITELY MY FAULT, the window masks didn't come off without tearing off the surrounding paint, the paint was far too thick and i couldn't even see where the fueselage masks were, they were duried........lost all panel detail etc, she had at least 7 coats of paint, i didn't realise just how thick the paint was until i actually tried to remove the window masks. 

 

my next B17 has to be the correct colour 1st time, it was very hard with that shade of green because that colour isn't easy to ``vision`` weathered down in your mind, i was stumbling around wondering what she looked like after 30 missions, she was probably the wrong colour at the end anyway!!!!!!!!!!!...........see what i mean...

 

http://www.airplanesofthepast.com/b17-flying-fortress-4483575-nine-o-nine.htm

 

that's the correct colour for Nine o Nine, but i'm not sure if i shouldn't do Musashi instead 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by MalX

[MilneBay]

2 hours ago, MalX said:

SHE'S RUINED AND  I'M VERY CROSS ABOUT THIS............you should have realised she'd be impossible to correct before you posted in, because those wings are now ruined, she's had 3 coats of tinted paint over green.......... it all came off instantly and it is impossible to patch up.....you know how hard it is to redo it now, the whole model needs to be repainted from scratch......... the tail, the fueselage, everything, because it is impossible to match in the wings only.........

 

it is too much work to keep redoing it, she's now a write off............that model took ages to do, why didn't you keep your mouth firmly shut before posting in, realising that i would try to correct it ?????????

 

 

 

 

 

You asked for advice - you received several comprehensive and correct descriptions of wartime OD and NG and how OD weathered, as well as several pics of wartime aircraft. For some reason you decided to work off pics of restored aircraft. There are many many pics of B17s available as well as thousands of pics on various fora of well researched and finished models. I can only speak for myself but I find your response quite rude and indicative of someone who just wouldn't do proper research.

Edited February 28, 2017 by MilneBay

[MalX]

5 minutes ago, MilneBay said:

 

You asked for advice - you received several comprehensive and correct descriptions of wartime OD and NG and how OD weathered, as well as several pics of wartime aircraft. For some reason you decided to work off pics of restored aircraft. There are many many pics of B17s available as well as thousands of pics on various fora of well researched and finished models. I can only speak for myself but I find your response quite rude and indicative of someone who just wouldn't do proper research.

well i've just looked at Google photos B17 and there's hundreds of great models...............but they're all different shades and i've seen loads of wartime photos.............all different shades, sorry, but i think i'm right.

[scotthldr]

11 minutes ago, MalX said:

i've been modelling all my life,

and........

 

12 minutes ago, MalX said:

my next B17 has to be the correct colour 1st time, it was very hard with that shade of green because that colour isn't easy to ``vision`` weathered down in your mind, i was stumbling around wondering what she looked like after 30 missions, she was probably the wrong colour at the end anyway!!!!!!!!!!!...........see what i mean...

 

http://www.airplanesofthepast.com/b17-flying-fortress-4483575-nine-o-nine.htm

 

that's the correct colour for Nine o Nine, but i'm not sure if i shouldn't do Musashi instead 

 

 

Yes is it is, look through the internet there are tens of thousands of pictures showing how OD fades over time, widen the search to other types as well like the B24, B25 and the C47 and you'll get the idea. Even look at modern US Army helos and you can see how Green fades over time.

 

Again you're still falling back on museum pieces to gauge the colour, big mistake as these a/c are kept in pristine condition.

[MilneBay]

You failed to understand what everyone was telling you - OD never faded to any particular uniform shade. Also it depends upon the age of the aircraft and at which stage you are depicting it. No two B17s ever looked the same at any time so all you had to do was strike an average as all other modellers do. This was explained several times (to the point where this was becoming boring) and you still missed the point. To recapitulate - you select an OD you want, whatever the tonal differences they are all pretty much correct, then paint the model and then pick the weathering pattern you want and then weather the aircraft. Those vents on the wings were generally clear of staining, the real staining was aft of those ribs as the pics (as do do many others) show. Never use restored aircraft as guides unless you are modelling a restored aircraft. What else can anyone say.    

[scotthldr]

8 minutes ago, MalX said:

well i've just looked at Google photos B17 and there's hundreds of great models...............but they're all different shades and i've seen loads of wartime photos.............all different shades, sorry, but i think i'm right.

Self righteous or what..........  I would stop now if you're hoping for any more help in the future.

[MalX]

1 hour ago, scotthldr said:

and........

 

Yes is it is, look through the internet there are tens of thousands of pictures showing how OD fades over time, widen the search to other types as well like the B24, B25 and the C47 and you'll get the idea. Even look at modern US Army helos and you can see how Green fades over time.

 

Again you're still falling back on museum pieces to gauge the colour, big mistake as these a/c are kept in pristine condition.

``Nine O Nine`` is that colour now..... but these two museum colours still have to be weathered and that's the enjoyment.............but at least i'll be right with the basic colour

 

but saying that ``nine o nine`` does look wrong, i see no major weathering, TR looks much better, esp when you add the brown that she has now

 

but this photo is different :-

she definitely needs slightly ``more`` exhaust and oil streaks and then she'll look great, i also notice that the grey dusting is quite intense in that photo, it's bleaching out the black wing markings quite a lot......and i really love that, in fact, i think she'll make a great model..................she looks wrong in those close range ground photos, definitely 

 

the oil streaks only need to be slightly more, because the more i stare at that photo the better she looks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by MalX

[MilneBay]

Have you thought of contacting the operators of the restored aircraft and asking them what colour they painted it and the brand and type of paint. That's the simple way and then you wouldn't have had to deal with the complexities of wartime OD. That's the last piece of advice I'll offer you.

[bzn20]

58 minutes ago, MalX said:

a modern looking ``nine o nine`` is wrong to model, accurate yes..........but too plastic looking !!!!!

 

How many hours has 909 in the picture done? Straight out of a hangar after a service and wash pan,possibly repaint or after several missions across flak laden skies ? What will that look like ?

So "factory fresh" or "War Horse" ? From all the pictures on this thread you can see where the muck ends up, some blacker than others but if it isn't washed off it gets worse. those stains are  constant feature . You can work out how much you want to do. You won't be wrong . You could get that effect with a graphite loaded finger.

[MalX]

1 hour ago, bzn20 said:

 

How many hours has 909 in the picture done? Straight out of a hangar after a service and wash pan,possibly repaint or after several missions across flak laden skies ? What will that look like ?

So "factory fresh" or "War Horse" ? From all the pictures on this thread you can see where the muck ends up, some blacker than others but if it isn't washed off it gets worse. those stains are  constant feature . You can work out how much you want to do. You won't be wrong . You could get that effect with a graphite loaded finger.

yes i agree, because from my latest post...............909 needs more, but in this case not too much more.............. i've got charcoal sticks because i use them in my Art, damn, i wish i'd thought of this earlier, thanks

 

when i was a kid i used to paint the models gloss and then leave to cure for ages and then mix black with gloss varnish, it was so easy to vary the blackness of exhausts and taper out the edges to the wing colour, simply by soaking up the varnish at the edges...........i've been relying too much on a modern airbrush, which tends to dump the exhaust onto areas you dont want, that haven't cured yet..

 

Texas Raiders was easy...........yes she was painted gloss all over and left a week before weathering, so i just wiped off any mistake and redid it.

 

so paint and weather in gloss and leave for a week to cure, then if you screw up the exhaust it only takes a minute to wipe off.........because the exhaust/oil on a B17 is a big job, it's totally different and separate from doing the paint /weathering, it's like doing the turrets.......very easy to mess it up.

 

i used to know all of this 30 years ago, because Texas Raiders was painted gloss by mistake......but that mistake was right, this might not be what other modellers do, but back then i used to paint all models gloss and then turn them matt after adding the decals.

 

mind you, back then i didn't use an airbrush as well ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by MalX

[Dana Bell]

Hi MalX,

 

By the time I saw this thread things at progressed to the point that you were painting your model, so I felt there was no use in chiming in.  As you're now starting over, this might be a good time to give you a new direction.

 

The 9-0-9 restoration will never look like a wartime B-17, since the restorers applied only one shade of Dark Olive Drab to the metal surfaces.  Every camouflaged wartime B-17 from the B-17E and on had at least two shades.  The outer wing panels, center section of the vertical fin, and the stabilizers were camouflaged by subcontractors; Boeing, Douglas, and Vega then used their own paint to camouflage the remaining parts of the aircraft.  In good-quality images, you can see the differences as the aircraft rolled out of the factory.  Those differences became more pronounced as the aircraft aged and weathered.  (Add a third color for the OD dope used on fabric control surfaces.)

 

When camouflage was deleted from production lines, many of those subcontracted panels were still available and were used on otherwise aluminum finished aircraft - look at the attempts to remove the camouflage on the left wing of Bit O Lace (the Square-K image that Troy posted).  Note that the color differences could also be seen - though not as dramatically - on the Neutral Gray skin under those panels!

 

BTW, the mix of camouflaged fins and stabs on aluminum finished aircraft appears to be what led the 1st BW to apply red paint to those sections of the tail only.

 

So as you work past the frustration and begin again, may I recommend that you find three OD paints that suit your taste, apply them to the the panels that actually varied in production, then weather with artist oils, which will allow you to remove and modify any sections that you find unsatisfactory.  Good luck with the second build - I look forward to seeing your results!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Don McIntyre]

NEVER NEVER NEVER use restored aircraft (nor, as a general rule, museum aircraft) for colors. Use them for a general impression perhaps, but NOT for your finished model, unless you want it to look like the museum/restored aircraft. You've been provided with lots of information here, how you choose to follow it is up to you. As noted above, there are literally thousands of wartime/operational B-17 photos available online, keep looking at them, this would have given you a better idea of exhaust/oil streaking.

Show us a photo of your model and lets see what you feel has ruined it.

OBTW, you've taken exactly the wrong approach if you want people to take valuable time out of their day to provide you with help. Some of these guys took hours out of their day, perhaps taking time away from their families to find info for you and to provide you with their knowledge. Think about that for a minute…

[MalX]

yes ok........ 909 bothers me because i dont like the one colour finish, and i dont like that colour.......period, ok i can weather it bla bla bla, but it'll still be that basic colour..

 

i like the idea of OD panel variation like my TR, she looks truly awesome and from what i've learnt this week, will look better next time.

 

so it's that colour with more brown on the brown panels and a variation of the basic OD on others...................but what i like is the dark engines and the bright red tails, it's like bling to me.........but most B17Fs were too plain looking for my taste, i noticed this before starting mine.

 

So what do we have other than a TR style that really is very different ?.............well we have Tondalayo black, fantastic looking............and an Aluminium version..................but a black B17 is awesome to say the least and very interesting to paint.

 

i'm fired up for sure, but i do have a spare B17 at 1/72 so this has to be done first..but 1/72 is too small for Tondalayo..................so what do i make next, i have a spare tin of 2002 Metalcote, lets take a look at my decal sheets, i have ``madame shoo shoo``.........``sleepy time Gal`` and ``heaven sent``...............oh God i'm screwed..............staggered waste guns, the Revell B17G are lined up,  because it's a repackaged B17F isn't it..it's not that hard to move with a razor sharp knife, just a nuisance......let me think tonight  

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by MalX

[scotthldr]

I'm sorry but that post makes very hard reading,all I see is blah blah blah blah............

 

First of all may I suggest separating yourself and this build from any other, do not compare one a/c to another and  just concentrate on the facts for the current build.

 

Also may I ask what method you use when painting, as I've seen mention of both hairy brush and airbrush. You may benefit by changing the way you paint as you said the masking tape disappeared under the paint on your current build, that should never happen.

 

I'll offer any adivce I can and I'm sure there are many more like me on here, but only if we feel that advice is being taken on board. 

 

 

the trouble we have is 909 also looked like Texas Raiders once, plus ``little patches`` too.................but this means i'll have two B17s looking the same ...............unless i do 909 much more weathered than TR...

 

 

There's your starting point there, all B-17's started out the same or as close as, the UK based ones would've weathered naturally at more or else the same rate, but then you have to add in things that would've made each airframe different, like amount of flying time, battle damage, tech issues(oil leaks etc etc...) this is where there is no hard fast rule and it comes down to artist licence.

 

I build Greek a/c and over the last 4 years or so I've built 4 F-16's, in reality they all started out the same but over time they get their own personality so to speak, and this is where your judgement but more often than not photographs play a major part.  Here is a pic of all four together, they look the same but upon closer inspection the are all different. The thing is there isn't going to be major differences between them, and the B-17 was more than likely the same.

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by scotthldr

[MalX]

26 minutes ago, scotthldr said:

 

the window masks totally vanished under paint as did the panel detailing, she was airbrushed over about 6 times and rubbed down between coats, but i also stippled her over to try and create an effect, this coat was very thick............. it's the 1st aircraft i've made in years that's been repainted 6 times, i usually get the colour right 1st time...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by MalX

[bzn20]

I think your model looks good, looks dirty, shade changes etc. I'd be happy with it. I was expecting a right mess from your description. You're too hard on yourself and not sure.

Take a deep breath and carry on, nobody gets torn to shreds  in Ready for Inspection threads. People here like to help others not wreck their confidence.

 

Well done, whatever you've been fighting to get right, you're nearly there !

[bentwaters81tfw]

1 hour ago, MalX said:

 

 

 

Nowt much wrong with that, lad! A little bit of oil streaking on the red tailplane - lighter than the wings - behind nos 2 and 3 engines and it's nailed

Remember, sometimes 'less is more'. I suspect at times you try too hard to get the effect you want.

Bear in mind, no two B-17s looked the same once they left the plant. battle damage, dodgy paint, oil, dirt, footprints. each is individual, and changed from day to day. Take a snapshot in your mind of what you want to achieve, and stick with it. Unless you have a picture of a machine on a certain date, you will never achieve an exact replica.

[scotthldr]

I don't think that is the current build, but one he built in the past?

[MalX]

yes i can see where i went wrong....i need to produce another Texas Raiders style in 1/72,  it looks like 909 but not like she is now. 

 

it would be wise to say...........`` i need the correct OD to start or something damn close to it, if not you'd better give up`` 

[MalX]

sorry guys that aint the one i cocked up here........... 

 

SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE I WENT SO BADLY WRONG, because this one looks great and is beautifully sprayed ..........right that's it, i'll do two Texas Raiders styles..............909 will look similar to that but lighter in shade in 1/72.......Texas Raiders will be this again with slight mods

 

 this looked so nice as i was painting it, it was a joy to work on, and so easy to fine tune the weathering..........but the windscreen ruined her, but i've sussed that out since then, we should be ok next time.

 

i'm in a good mood now ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by MalX

[MalX]

5 hours ago, bzn20 said:

I think your model looks good, looks dirty, shade changes etc. I'd be happy with it. I was expecting a right mess from your description. You're too hard on yourself and not sure.

Take a deep breath and carry on, nobody gets torn to shreds  in Ready for Inspection threads. People here like to help others not wreck their confidence.

 

Well done, whatever you've been fighting to get right, you're nearly there !

that's not her but thanks

 

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by MalX

[MalX]

 

that's the same paint job as above but she looks an even better tint, that's interesting, the fueselage is also getting close to 909 ...................i think i sprayed her grey ? i'm sure i did...........the oil is duller, yes i sprayed her sand and then light grey, she looks flipping great except for those silly wing panels i added..........

 

if i carried on..............you can see her turning into 909 as now, because that's only about 5 more washes away.............good grief , Olive Drab does indeed turn that sand grey

 

but the engines aren't the same light shade as the fueselage though ? no i didn't spray the engines nearly as much.

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by MalX