B17F COLOUR ??

[Greenshirt]

4 hours ago, elger said:

FWIW, I think that Margaret Bourke-White's kodachrome photos look fairly natural, and to me, the OD of the B-17s looks brownish. But it would seem that the pictures were taken in the fall, with a low sun, late afternoon.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294284/WWII-color-Rare-photos-1942-Flying-Fortress-bombers-heroic-crews-The-Mighty-8th-Command.html

 

 

Excellent photos. That first one appears to have at least 5 different shades of "olive drab" showing, at least from a Modelers perspective. 

[MalX]

some of the later photos are still greenish, with the first few being brownish..............but i'm going to do Shamrock Special, because Kits World sent me the wrong decals, the tail numbers are supposed to be yellow but they sent me white, i'm pretty cross about this...i wish that i bought another 1/48 Texas Raiders instead, because i cant be bothered with any of hassle.

 

my guess is it's OD Green that's faded brown over time, because i keep seeing green versions....i'm going to mine in OD green as per the ``false`` Memphis Belle...the same as Texas Raiders, which had loads of brown in it anyway.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by MalX

[MalX]

 

That's the closest within the yellow line, but it doesn't look quite like the photo..........the area i've shown within the red line is the extreme of the weathering,  but if i add that much it's wrong.

 

it's really hard to get close because that's done with a paintbrush and i bet it'll look different sprayed (probably greener)  , the base coat is matt 155 humbrol with about 20% yellow and 3% red........the overlay tint is sand/brown in Acrylic, not polyurethane like the base coat. 

 

you can see how it weathers to brown as per the wartime photos, because that's my red area....it has a more green tint to it than Texas Raiders which is a darker Olive Drab....as per the engine noses in that photo

 

lets hope the model sprays ok tomorrow 

Edited February 19, 2017 by MalX

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I think once again you need to decide whether you're trying to replicate an aircraft or a photograph of an aircraft. Despite what people who have no knowledge about cameras or colours say, cameras do lie - and through their proverbial teeth at that.

 

Even ignoring exposure and filters which may have been used for publicity shots, the film itself was dreadful at the time and did not capture colour well at all. I honestly wouldn't lose too much sleep over matching to a photograph, unless you're trying to recreate the photograph itself.

[MalX]

i'm not actually basing it on a photo, i'm trying to use the standard factory colour, (whatever that is) and weathering it.......... because even my photo doesn't look like the actual paint job i got yesterday.

 

this is the trickiest paint job i've ever done, but she's now painted, she just needs the weathering tomorrow.......``Shamrock Special`` had grey flaps and aerolons on her top surface and it's a bad colour clash with the green, she looks very strange.....................that is, if Revell have got her right, but i'm starting to get used to it

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by MalX

[Mike Starmer]

The angst about Dark Olive Drab 41 seems to surface regularly.  For what it is worth I attempted to match the facsimile swatches in Archer's Monogram book on USAAC and USAAF colours for my project.  I came up with these mixes.  They are not exact but very close and look OK.  If you use them them be aware of the need to 'fade' them slightly.

Dark Olive Drab No.41:   1).  4 x H241 +3 x H155.  2).  5 x H155 + 2 x H163.

Neutral Gray No.43:  2 x H246 1 x H240.  OMG! it's mauve and dark too.  Yes it is, much to my surprise.  Then I looked again at some good balanced colour prints and found the same tint there.

Medium Green No.42;   1)   4x H195 + 3 x H131  or  2) 6 x H195 + 3 x H131 + 2 x H150.

[MalX]

i think it looks pretty good as is..............the problem with an accurate colour match is, that nobody really knows what it looks like a year or two later when you're depicting it............ it's therefore what feels right

 

 that clean looking Memphis Belle photographed above looks wrong to me...because that's what mine looks like until tomorrow.........a plastic toy with no feel for the real thing.

 

without wheels.........she's a right bugger to paint and put down without marking, because the top is wet, the underside is wet, i've had to touch up the underside about 6 times and every time the grey is slightly contaminated and dirty with the top colour ............... she looks great  but only due to my mistakes..... odd isn't it. 

 

i now have to leave her to really cure till tomorrow, because i cant pick her up without her showing fingerprints..............the 1/48 was miles easier to paint than this..........i've done way too much painting in one day, she's lucky to have survived

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

11 hours ago, MalX said:

the problem with an accurate colour match is, that nobody really knows what it looks like a year or two later when you're depicting it

 

I don't understand?

[MalX]

there is no accurate representation of what the aircraft looked like after a couple of years of weathering....the old wartime photos are giving us the wrong impression, all i can do is guess! 

i've changed her to ``nine little yanks and a jerk`` i didn't like the look of the camouflage

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by MalX

[MalX]

not sure, needs redoing tomorrow............too sandy looking

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by MalX

[MalX]

that's close enough, she looks miles better than the photo and will do even more........ once i've added more grime and the exhaust stains

 

the panels i've highlighted are in gloss right now !!!!!!!!!!!!!  so it's killing the photo, they're not nearly as bold as that in real life.

 

 i couldn't get her right in Olive Drab.....that's Emerald Green with an overlay of Grey and then Sand and then finally, very diluted Olive Drab  the widow masks are buried under paint .............i hope and prey they're ok

 

the final weathering wash will be very diluted light grey with a paint brush tomorrow and then the exhaust streaks etc on sunday.........those panel highlights will be toned down with the wash tomorrow.

 

whatever the case and with my lingering doubts that wont go away...............she definitely looks wrong in one shade of green, because she looks too plain and lacks personality, please see my photo of Texas Raiders, because both aircraft are basically a ``controlled`` blotchy mess, if you see what i mean 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by MalX

[Work In Progress]

Have you considered the advantages of doing your build threads here?

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/52-work-in-progress-aircraft/

[MalX]

the whole thread needs to be over there, because it's all relevant to the thread title.... it's not really a build thread, it's a paint thread.

[MilneBay]

Well IMHO i have always found that Humbrol's OD changes hue to a brown shade after several years and the natural browning of the clear float coat if it is an enamel. As for wartime colour shots those that are shown in this thread by Margaret Bourke-White are of new aircraft with little weathering. More missions and more dirt, if they survived that long, then a more brown faded colour. 

[MalX]

9 hours ago, MilneBay said:

Well IMHO i have always found that Humbrol's OD changes hue to a brown shade after several years and the natural browning of the clear float coat if it is an enamel. As for wartime colour shots those that are shown in this thread by Margaret Bourke-White are of new aircraft with little weathering. More missions and more dirt, if they survived that long, then a more brown faded colour. 

the B17 looks completely wrong in factory finish green, she only looks roughly right (with more work needed) in my latest incarnation..... members are right, she looks totally wrong without weathering and repaired battle damage.

 

as for brown tinting it........... only parts of it, because an all over brown tint changes the colour too much, because to get a brown tint to really show i usually end up overdoing it.

 

my final washes tonight will be a nightmare, because my guess is, they were only brown tinted if they survived to 1948 or similar, but most were shot down or scrapped whilst still faded green..........................i think .............this B17F is a nasty one to weather.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I don't think it's correct to claim it's totally wrong in factory finish paint. What you have is a mental image of a tired Fortress and that's what you're trying to replicate. There's nothing wrong with that, but most B17s didn't last very long, whereas every single one was fresh from the factory at the beginning of its service life.

[MalX]

she's now dusty all over, i've lost about 70% of the highlighted panels........but i'll probably loose most of the dusty finish with the gloss lacquer, if so i'll be happy, because she's gone too far  

 

i couldn't wash off what i applied tonight, it soaked straight into the existing matt finish and stained it.......damn it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[MilneBay]

I have been following this thread and I cannot see what the problem is.

 

A B17F  arrived from the factory in a OD over NG finish. Over time that could weather out to a browner shade and be faded - OD did that. There would be exhaust stains, oil stains and other scuff marks from servicing and these would change the finish colour in certain parts of the airframe. But what I am trying to make clear is that the base OD/NG would be still in place. So get that on evenly then start fiddling with the weathering and do remember that depending on how many missions the aircraft survived or at what point in its career you are modeling those stains, weathering etc. could vary from only barely noticeable to very noticeable. Also as the control surfaces were fabric covered these would tend to a somewhat lighter shade but again not all that noticeable unless the aircraft survived a lot of missions.

 

As for OD as has been pointed out here it came in a multitude of hues depending on the paint supplier and the assembly plant. As a colour it is available from every model paint maker and none are the absolute "correct" hue. But each is correct. So if you want a browner shade pick that, if you want which has a hint of green pick whatever matches that. As for clearly demarked  panels on wings etc, forget it. These aircraft were touched up with new paint when circumstances like battle damage required, this wasn't marked out in panels unless a whole panel required replacement.

 

Also remember that whatever paint you use it is paint and all paint fades, changes hue etc. over time regardless of the manufacturer's claims especially if you take into account the various clear finishes you will use to seal decals and to get the appropriate degree of matt you want. I've got 40 year old models whose colours are noticeably aged and yet they have never left the shelf apart from dusting.  

 

And finally working off WW2 colour shots is a mug's game unless you know the exact provenance of the pic itself and whether or not your image has been reproduced and how many times.     

Edited February 26, 2017 by MilneBay

[MalX]

she's as per Memphis Belle now, all one colour of Green, i repainted her last night.

 

i wasn't happy with the panel highlighting and the amount of dust.......she only requires a light dusting now.

[Coors54]

13 minutes ago, MalX said:

she's as per Memphis Belle now, all one colour of Green, i repainted her last night.

 

i wasn't happy with the panel highlighting and the amount of dust.......she only requires a light dusting now.

 

Does anyone else get the feeling no ones listening?

[MalX]

yea the thread has died......even i'm fed up with it, it's one of those models that you put quietly out the way and never pick up again.

 

 

 

 

[scotthldr]

I've been following this thread and I've struggled to understand it, except for the initial question which was answered in the second post.

 

You've over complicated the colours to such a point that you now doubt what you think and see and what others are telling you. To be honest the picture of the kit sitting on top of the box looks pretty good, a bit weathering to highlight the bleaching of the paint in certain areas and you would've been there. I also don't understand why every time I've looked in on this thread you've gone and changed the paint scheme and keep going back to a colour scheme that isn't 100% accurate?

 

The best way to gauge your colours is to find a picture of how you think the a/c would've looked like and base everything on that, as long as you've got the picture no one can say you're wrong.

 

First rule of asking for advice is to take the advice giving on board and use it.

 

Good luck what ever route you decide to go

[bzn20]

These 'planes were a hotchpotch at the best of times. If they weren't destroyed first they had so much battle damage and acquired scab patches, insert repairs, if they had time and skin changes, structure, control surface new fins even complete tails from donor "Christmas trees", you name it. They'd only paint the NMF parts that have been added. Down in the afternoon for a QFO early the next day for more punishment.

It doesn't quite fit in with Hollywood and box art.

How those crews climbed in day after day knowing 25 missions and back home was probably not going to happen.

[MalX]

yes i'm confused over the colours because others have said, ``she might not have been as weathered as you've shown her, but shot down before weathering set in``..nobody has posted in until now saying ``she looks right on the box``..........otherwise i wouldn't have changed her from that.

 

Texas Raiders is easy to do because her colour is right there in the photo above and many others, but i've no idea what ``nine little yanks and a jerk`` looked like when she went down. 

 

https://100thbg.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:hughes-crew-page&catid=25&Itemid=581

 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by MalX

[Graham Boak]

You aren't modelling to please other people, but yourself.  Lack of response shouldn't be taken as some kind of disapproval - more likely the reverse is true.  People will rush in trying to be helpful, but if it looks OK already, then there's nothing to add.

 

As for a brownish OD, I've just bought a recent Colourcoats release which looks pretty good, browner than most.

ACJ22 - IJAAF #7 Ohryoku nana go shoku