Hope's Sword (4 x Eduard 1/72 Spitfires)

[CedB]

Winnie back, tidied bench, primer on, quotes from the Bard... great stuff PC  

[Niles]

2 hours ago, Procopius said:

and the damned horrible house with a staircase to nowhere that Mrs P inexplicably loves is again back on the market after another sale fell through...can't imagine why, maybe because it's a disintegrating heap of crap

 

Beware the siren's song of the house that no matter what it's mysterious charms is a "disintegrating heap" of anything.  Beneath the charming staircase is an insatiable troll that will suck the money out of the bank account and the time and energies of its owners out of their souls.  With Mrs. P pressing you onward patching and repatching the disintegration like a 21st Century Sisyphus you'll have no time left to build mini Spitfires and if you find the time, no energy, and there will be no money left for even one overtree, let alone a cheap single action airbrush.  Tie Mrs. P to the mast and pour wax into her ears whenever you must sail past the damned horrible house. 

Edited February 19, 2017 by Niles

[TheBaron]

3 hours ago, Procopius said:

 The effect was not unlike what I shudder to imagine it would be like to bring a squid to a state of high arousal, and I did not like it.

Ask the fisherman's wife. (Tako to ama)....

 

Your quaternity of midnight Spitfires are crying out for their own HBO series...Gorgeous.

Tony

[Procopius]

Tonight I did the undersides of the Spitfires, and then downed tools to watch an episode of BBC/Netflix co-production Crazyhead with Mrs P, which she stolidly endured and even put down her iPad (which Winston has cracked after heroically spiking it into a tiled floor -- good boy). 

 

I tried a New Way of painting the undersides tonight, which the camera isn't really cooperating on capturing. Since I used black primer, I went over it with a thin layer of Colourcoats MSG, followed by filling in panels with heavier coats and randomly dotting it all over the underside (the Master G20 is not a great airbrush, but the little .2mm needle gives it surprising precision: I could about only paint just the little circular panels on the underside without overspray if I was careful) until it was sort of filled out. I gather this is the fashion for many of your better modellers these days. My thoughts after the photos.

 

20170219_204022 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

20170219_204027 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

20170219_204050 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

 

So on one hand an issue I've been grappling with rather half-heartedly is how far I want to take this whole modelling thing. Obviously I'll never write articles on it or enter contests, since that's not where my talents lie. But in a sense every model I build is an expression of love: love for people mostly long dead; love for a world I'm not a part of; love for things I will never experience. And so the question is how much effort am I willing to put into this, and how much effort will make this not fun? I'm the sort of perfectionist that would rather not try than try and fail, and I confess, I feel it a little when I read casual comments about "over-weathered" or "too pristine" models: like, maybe it's always only going to be one or the other. I struggle with finishing. (And basic assembly, but I have a craft knife handy when I'm doing that, so watch yourself.) So the other hand, I suppose then would be the fear of going too far into the corner of mere artifice -- since I'm never going to be an A+ modeller, I'm not particularly enamoured of the idea of becoming a pale imitation of a style that's artistically sound, but which produces finished models that don't look much like an actual Spitfire (or other lesser aircraft), especially if more work is involved. 

 

 

I'm very much on the fence on this, so I invite and welcome frank commentary on if it does or doesn't work, or if it seems less like capturing the sense of the aircraft than it does mere artifice. 

[Stew Dapple]

Well I like it Edward, but then the method you used is quite similar to the method that young Cookie introduced me to, which serves to give a little tonal variety to what would otherwise be a homogeneous finish. I don't fervently believe that it makes a model look less like a model, or more like a real aircraft, but it does give a more interesting intimation of some wear and ageing to the paintwork and I think it is for that reason that I like it. Some people will like it and others less so but that's not the real test, which is how you feel about it. My own personal feeling is that it is worth the extra work and faff because I think my models look better with the black-basing done than without it, but I appreciate that not everyone (and particularly anyone who works on real aircraft and sees just how they look in real life) would agree - in the end though I build models for my own interest and amusement.

 

Do you think it looks better that way, or that it's a lot of fuss for little or no improvement?

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[stevehnz]

I'm a great believer in the concept of less is more. Whether than means less visible but done very subtly like Stew or simply just not doing much of "that stuff" is something the individual only can decide. When it begins to smack you in the eye become obvious, it has moved into a different category of demonstrating the individuals command of certain skills that produce an effect. Realism may not have much to do with it but as long as the producee finds it appealing who am I or anyone else to criticise. I decided long ago that I wanted to make models that keep me happy. They won't win competitions or appeal to most peoples critical senses but they'll be OK for me & importantly, won't involve me in a lot of navel gazing or angst. Something that only the indivdual can decide. Even so, I believe strongly that skills accumulate & styles develope. Yours & my efforts today will be different to what we produce in a decade, hopefully in a good way.

Steve.

Edited February 20, 2017 by stevehnz
eradicate some of the gibberish

[CedB]

They look good to me PC - good job  

 

3 hours ago, Procopius said:

So on one hand an issue I've been grappling with rather half-heartedly is how far I want to take this whole modelling thing.

3 hours ago, Procopius said:

since I'm never going to be an A+ modeller, I'm not particularly enamoured of the idea of becoming a pale imitation of a style that's artistically sound, but which produces finished models that don't look much like an actual Spitfire (or other lesser aircraft), especially if more work is involved.

 

I'm with you, wholeheartedly! Some of the techniques I've seen look 'artistic' but not 'realistic' so I've not tried them. Others, like this one, can help to make a more realistic model in the hands of better modellers but sometimes don't quite work for me. I'm quite happy to give things a try, recognising that I don't have an artistic bone in my body; if it's not 'a process' I'm likely to mess up (even with the tools) and won't try it again.

I really admire those like Cookie and Stew who 'have the art', I aspire to their finishes and I'll follow their techniques where I can in the hope of improving my skills, but I know I'll not always achieve 'that look'. Others I know I'll never match, no matter how hard I try.

Stew's and Steve are right (of course) - it's whether you think it improves the end result, or just spoils the fun. 

 

3 hours ago, Procopius said:

I feel it a little when I read casual comments about "over-weathered" or "too pristine" models

 

Fnaar!

When I was young a wise man told me "You know you're grown up when you stop worrying about what people think of you and start worrying about what you think of them". Bearing in mind that some people here don't have English as their first language I have people I listen to and others I don't. 'Now't so queer as folks'

 

I think you're one of the best contributors on BM Egbert and a good modeller, a really good modeller. If you try something and don't like it, or mess up something new, don't despair - there are readers like me who'll learn lessons from your builds and certainly from your posts!

 

Did I say those Spitfires look good by the way?  

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I like it Edward. I agree with all the above posts that when a technique smacks you in the face it is not improving the model in terms of realism. As a technique, this black basing malarkey is not that difficult but more importantly not that critical if your hand slips. What works for me in the technique and your models there is a subtle random quality in the exact light reflectance value of the finish. A uniform paint finish looks most unnatural to my eye on anything besides a paint chip or perhaps a highly polished new car. There are very few things in nature which reflect a uniform colour back at you - you can prove this with a digital camera and Microsoft paint by colour sampling different areas of the same supposed colour. Models lack the surface detail to reflect light in patterns as complex as the real thing, and without that complexity a uniform colour looks every bit as artificial as the heavily faded arty-type models with heavy panel line washes etc.

 

The good thing about black basing is that you can't "over do" it. You start of with the wrong answer and add paint working towards uniformity. You can stop where you have and judge whether or not you like it. If you feel it's too obvious then you can shoot another thin coat over it and each time you do so it becomes less obvious.

 

For the record, I think the effect you have now will work very well, although I'd suggest giving some thought to the national markings at this point as raw decals with no further thought may be at odds with the paint around them - even then, I think some light chalk pastel application (another fool proof / completely reversible technique) will see that shipshape.

 

Lastly, you discredit yourself a little, I think. Your standard is well above average for my money. I appreciate my values and weightings thereof are not necessarily aligned with typical IPMS judging rules, but your models are captivating and inviting to look at.

[TheBaron]

21 minutes ago, SovereignHobbies said:

There are very few things in nature which reflect a uniform colour back at you - you can prove this with a digital camera and Microsoft paint by colour sampling different areas of the same supposed colour. Models lack the surface detail to reflect light in patterns as complex as the real thing, and without that complexity a uniform colour looks every bit as artificial as the heavily faded arty-type models with heavy panel line washes etc.

Hear hear! And surface texture is as critical in this regard as colour in the creation of diffusion and specularity across surfaces, as well as the role of anisotropy in the appearance of reflective and transparent materials. The difference in scale between model and reality will always mean that we are approximating, never exactly reproducing.

 

One of the great pleasures of this hobby/obsession/compulsion is seeing the variations in style and approach that people use; this is far more interesting to me in terms of invidualitity and expression than the attainment of some kind of objective  'gold standard'. 

 

Ced and Steve: I don't want to monopolize PCs thread by quoting you at length but amen to your thoughts also.

5 hours ago, Procopius said:

So on one hand an issue I've been grappling with rather half-heartedly is how far I want to take this whole modelling thing. Obviously I'll never write articles on it or enter contests, since that's not where my talents lie. But in a sense every model I build is an expression of love: love for people mostly long dead; love for a world I'm not a part of; love for things I will never experience. 

Exactly my feelings Edward, to the letter. Beautifully phrased.

 

I came across this by the  anthropologist Clifford Geertz some time ago and had to wonder about parallels to parallels:

 '..sets of symbols whose relations to one another "model" relations among entities, processes or what-haveyou in physical, organic, social, or psychological systems by "paralleling," "imitating," or "simulating" them. The term "model" has, however, two senses--an "of " sense and a "for" sense.'

Interestingly he's not discussing Spitfires but religion, though of course who can tell the difference sometimes....

Tony

 

[Rob G]

I'm happy if I can manage to get approximately the right colour paint onto approximately the right places. All this weathering stuff smacks of witchcraft to me.

 

Do what contents you, young sir, and Damme them who say Otherwise.

[rob85]

Mr P, that looks like it works to me! If you're happy with it then please crack on.... I wouldn't worry about you ability, we must like what you do, for your 7,000 comments you have had 14,000 likes.... so for every post at least two people think it's good. Your doing fine.

 

over weathered, under weathered? Who cares really? Mine look like they have gone for a roll in a muddy field, just how I like them.

 

Rob

[Christer A]

IMHO tonal variation is the key in making the model look a little more "alive" and less toylike. How you achieve this, be it with black basing, pre-shading, post-shading, pastels or just using a Pym-particles is up to you, as a modeller. All techniques have their uses and can look as good or bad as the one using them are able to do. I have 3 of the How to model aircraft boos by Mig Jiminez and while effects and techniques used therein are exaggerated to show (and sell) products I still find them inspirational to me.

With that said we come to the reason to why we model. I'm not in it to win it, I'm far too clumsy, sloppy and less artisticly inclined than what is needed to compete with the best (here in Sweden I should add!) I'm doing this to escape from the real world, relax, have some fun, and to delve deep into subjects that moves me in one way or another. As an CAD-engineer I'm also more interested in RJ Mitchell, Sidney Camm and all the nameless guys in the development offices than the exploits of the men who flew them...

Do whatever pleases you, its you hobby and there are no right or wrong here!

 

Also, speaking from another self-lived experience: Please inform Mrs P that a high maintenance house, coupled with 2 small kids and no free craftsmen of any kind as readily available will definitely lead down a long dark destructive road that will end in tears, bitterness and divorce.

This kind of life where you always are rebuilding/refurnishing a house requires both people to be highly interested and motivated, and almost forsake all other hobbies in life. If you're prepared for that, then go ahead...also, it can be solved by throwing heaps of money but that's now how these things work...

 

Ah yes, there were four nicely done Spits somewhere on this page. They sure look nice!

+1 for Jamies suggestion to blend in the markings though!

 

[Niles]

13 minutes ago, Christer A said:

Also, speaking from another self-lived experience: Please inform Mrs P that a high maintenance house, coupled with 2 small kids and no free craftsmen of any kind as readily available will definitely lead down a long dark destructive road that will end in tears, bitterness and divorce.

 

And if the current owner is having difficult times trying to sell the house with every attempt falling through, don't think that you will be an exception to that experience if it becomes yours and the time comes that you also want to unload it.

[Cookenbacher]

Little did we know when we started in the hobby, that we were joining an activity that lives at the intersection of history, science and art. Britmodeller is such a wonderful place, in part, because it brings friendly experts in each of these fields into one place, as the above posts can attest.  Also, aeroplanes are so cool.

 

Your Spitfires look wonderful PC, I really do prefer the varied finish. As Sovereign Hobbies pointed out, it's not because the paint on the actual thing was that varied, but because the complex shape of the real thing produced shadows that cause it to appear varied. I've mentioned this before, but I was thumbing through an artist friend's coffee table book about the Italian sculptor, Bernini, and came across this quote:

 

Sometimes in a marble portrait, in order to imitate nature properly, you have to do something that does not exist in nature. To render the dark color
that some people have under their eyes, you have to cut the place of that darkness out of the marble in order to create the effect of color, and with this artiface
make up for this defect in sculpture, which cannot otherwise render the effect.

 

I guess this debate has been going on since the 1600's! This is also when I realized that we were in an actual artistic debate on the subject, not just folks grousing about models - which is wonderful. That also means that the opposing viewpoints are also grounded in genuine artistic theories, and I love that there are various 'schools' in our hobby, each dedicated to modelling a different aspect of the real thing.

 

That being said, it is a hobby. My plan for a Corsair in the Vignette Group Build was to apply all the techniques I'd learned to that point and build my best possible model, and it was rather miserable - it had turned into a chore. I realized that I'm somebody who likes learning new techniques more than perfecting them, and so that's how I'm going to model from now on. If black basing was fun for you, continue with it, if not, no one ever complained about your builds without it - they were just of another school, and fine examples of that school too.

[TheBaron]

Well said Cookie. Well said sir.

Tony

[rob85]

Nailed it cookie!

 

Rob

[Procopius]

17 hours ago, TheBaron said:

I came across this by the  anthropologist Clifford Geertz

 

 

Wow, I haven't thought of him since college! Read him right after Ruth Benedict's Patterns of Culture. Yeesh, talk about your Proustian moments. I'm glad I'll never be fourteen again.

 

We had quite a day here today. Winston woke up bright and early and proved to be a bottomless void, consuming something like a bowl of macaroni and cheese (a meal I've never not found utterly revolting, just my luck he and his mother think it actually goes in human bodies), an entire banana, some cantaloupe, a bowl of cereal, half of his mother's bowl of cereal, half of my bowl of cereal, a small bowl of chocolate frozen yogurt (not my call), a pierogi, a seemingly endless procession of steamed cauliflower, and one or two other things that caught his eye, including a fair amount of dirt.

 

20170220_114419 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

20170220_133413 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

He then managed to take a header off of a kitchen chair and executed a perfect vertical 180 along his axis, half of a perfect martial arts move, and practically dug a crater into the kitchen floor with his head. I was trying to get a bowl of hot water (from steaming the cauliflower) to the sink, and I fairly threw it the length of the house to run to him, certain he was already dead. But no. He lives yet, though I suspect he'll be feeling that one for a few days, Magical.

 

He's also discovered the temper tantrum in a big, big way, and he has this killer move where he does a flip onto his back, bicycle kicking with his stubby little legs while howling. It's a lot of fun to carry him somewhere while this is happening, like say at a public park. On the plus side, he likes to look at the Spitfires in the Eduard Aussie Eight book, and when I showed him a video of a Spitfire VIII on youtube, when it pulled away from a low pass and up into the clouds, he waved a pudgy little hand at the screen and said "bye-bye". So there's that.

 

I also trimmed Madeleine's toenails, and she repaid me by pooping on me. Thanks, kiddo.

 

2017-02-20_10-27-54 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

I did manage to get a little modelling time in tonight, though. 

 

Some seams on the underside were still visible, so I fixed them:

 

20170220_201159 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

And I sprayed some XXXXXXXXTREEEEEEME! METALLLLL! on the wings. Not pleased with how it performed, but realized that because I'm using Colourcoats (I remain available for an endorsement deal), I could use Micro Mask, which is I guess Maskol in a cowboy hat. Yeehaw. 

 

20170220_201133 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

We'll see how this turns out.

 

I then went back over the undersides with some more thinned MSG, and then latterly some MSG with a drop or two of white added. It cut down on the contrast a bit more, and I think this time at least I'll leave it here. We'll see what I do for future builds. Of course, I forgot to do Sky bands and invasion strips. D'oh!

 

20170220_203848 by Edward IX, on Flickr

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stew Dapple]

Yeah, the undersides look good to me, the faint trace of the shading is still there (and I suspect more subtly detectable visually than is apparent in the pictures, if my own efforts are anything to go by)

 

I can't help but feel that perhaps the silver undercoat is too shiny for anything but the very freshest of scratches or paint-chipping though - it would look more 'worn' with  a greyish-silver, or even just a plain light grey - but I will be happy to be proved wrong

 

By the way, Madeleine pooped on you because she remembered you cut one of her nails too short last time. You don't remember? She pooped everywhere then...

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Beard]

1 hour ago, Procopius said:

I also trimmed Madeleine's toenails, and she repaid me by pooping on me. Thanks, kiddo.

 

I may be wrong (in fact I know I'm wrong but if I believe it then it must be true) but I believe that's a hedgehog's way of   sarcastically saying 'thank you'.

 

Edit: that reminds me of when a hamster weed in my mouth. Proust, eat your heart out.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Beard

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

2 hours ago, Stew Dapple said:

Yeah, the undersides look good to me, the faint trace of the shading is still there (and I suspect more subtly detectable visually than is apparent in the pictures, if my own efforts are anything to go by)

 

I can't help but feel that perhaps the silver undercoat is too shiny for anything but the very freshest of scratches or paint-chipping though - it would look more 'worn' with  a greyish-silver, or even just a plain light grey - but I will be happy to be proved wrong

 

By the way, Madeleine pooped on you because she remembered you cut one of her nails too short last time. You don't remember? She pooped everywhere then...

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

 

Indeed some tankists use pencil graphite for chipping effects.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, Beard said:

 

I may be wrong (in fact I know I'm wrong but if I believe it then it must be true) but I believe that's a hedgehog's way of   sarcastically saying 'thank you'.

 

Edit: that reminds me of when a hamster weed in my mouth. Proust, eat your heart out.

 

My best man ate a rabbit poop by mistake (house rabbit wandering about living room - friend eating a bag of raisins - dropped one on the floor beside the sofa - reached down - etc)

[CedB]

3 hours ago, Procopius said:

He then managed to take a header off of a kitchen chair...

 

Possibly not used to the extra loading of all that food? Very resilient, young ones.

 

The Spitfires look good in that photo PC, a nice variation in the colouring. Good job.

Madeleine's still looking cute, poop aside  

[Tomoshenko]

Wow, away for a few days and I return to an in depth philosophical debate  existential in nature, covering art, science, history and macaroni (which I also find inedible). Bernini even got a mention! Nearly ran out of likes going through the comments as I pretty much agree with everything said. The only criticism I have is that every time you mention MSG I have this image of you spraying the model in Monosodium glutamate.

[AdrianMF]

Wow, philosophy, realty and art appreciation before breakfast!

 

At the risk of seeming somewhat inarticulate I will just add the the Spitfires are looking good!

 

(and +1 for the crumbling house thing; if you don't get divorced, your wife will want to move as soon as you finish the last job. Go on, ask me how I know....)

 

Regards,

Adrian

[Harley John]

Well I build models for my own enjoyment and am a died in the wool hairy stick kinda guy.That's not to say I'm stuck in my ways - indeed I've learnt more about this hobby in the few months since I returned and have applied quite a few techniques picked up from BM given freely by the far more talented than me members of this forum but you have to decide, for you, what is sufficent or otherwise for your models . And you Sir are one of those more talented members that an old duffer like myself looks to.