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F104J to G


franky boy

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Hello chaps.

 

I know this has been covered on here before but I can't find that thread so hear goes again.

 

I want to build an F104G for the current NATO/Warsaw pact 70s GB in 1/48 scale. The current prices of 1/48 Hasegawa kits and the Eduard reboxings on eBay is a bit of a stumbling block for me but I have a Hasegawa F104j kit in the stash. So can someone please tell me if this can be turned into a G model with the minimum of fuss or is it a major job.

 

As I understand it there may be small differences in ejector seats and length of jet pipes etc which are all easily enough dealt with with after market goodies or would it be easier just to stump up the cash for a G boxing and not tell the wife!

 

Any info great appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

James

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Hi, James. 

 

I certainly wouldn't described myself as a Starfighter expert, but here goes....

 

I recently bought a copy of the DACO Publications photo reference to European F-104's and it's an truly amazing reference work (I would recommend begging, borrowing or stealing a copy to any F-104 fan). If I remember correctly, there were three Euro air-forces which outfitted their aircraft with the Martin-Baker bang-seat later on in their service (I THINK Germany was one country that performed the upgrade, but my memory t'aint what it used to be...). I also seem to recall that the longer tail-pipe arrangement was introduced from the "S" model onward (again, my memory on this is fairly wobbly). 

 

Sorry I can't be of more help. There are members on here who will be able to tell you anything you want to know, I'm sure. 

 

Good luck, my friend. 

 

Chris. 

 

PS: Have you looked at the F-104 "walk around" reference sections on Britmodeller and also at "Prime Portal"? Both are worth a look...

Edited by spruecutter96
To add a PS.
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Hi, James

Not an expert, but here is my two-pence worth ... I understand F-104J was just a F-104G built in Japan. I do not think there is much, if any, difference around the exhaust, as F-104G had J79-GE-11A engine and F-104J had J79-IHI-11A, the latter being a license built copy of the former. According to Detail & Scale publication Germany, Netherlands and Belgium fitted their Starfighters with MB Q-5 ejection seats and the rest kept Lockheed C2. Italian F-104S had J79-GE-19 engines and Lock On series publication from Verlinden mentions larger diameter of exhaust and slightly bulkier rear fuselage. I do not know what Hasegawa kit looks like but, speaking from external differences between G and J point of view, little more than a decent set of Cold war era decals and paying attention to proper ordnance is needed for conversion. Cheers

Jure

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I seem to recall that Luftwaffe machines were, at some Point, fitted with 79s with some MTU Content (or possibly fully licence-built ?), and I *** think *** there was sosomething about a simplified nozzle, with fewer petals, but this may pertain to the S. IIRC MTU built the engines for the Luftwaffe Phantoms, and also supplied MDD directly, but this of course was a decade later. Not sure if it's correct, but I think I read somewhere the J essentially is a CF-104, which is subtly different from the G in a number of Areas, like wheels.

I paid around 35 € for an Eduard Bundes/NATOFighter boxing some 2 months ago, but my favourite supplier seems out of stock at the mo.

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As Tony said, the wheels and bulged doors are the main difference from a modelling point of view between these two variants. This bulge can be added with some plasticard (the front doors of the main wheel wells are always nearly closed on the ground so even if the inner side is not done properly it will be invisible anyway. If you intend to take part in the current GB, then keep in mind that by the '70s all Gs likely had the bulged doors and the wider tyres. The wheels may come from a resin set dedicated to the G.

Others have already commented on the seat, if you don't have an MB seat then you're limited to some countries and not others.

The exhaust did indeed change with the F-104S, a result of the use of a different variant of the J79. However all German single seat aircrafts were retrofitted with the S exhaust as part of a smoke reduction program. Can't remember the timeframe, may have been in the mid '70s so you may still build a German aircraft earlier in the decade. If you want to build a later aircraft, the exhaust should be available in resin. If you can't find one for the F-104S you can use one for an F-4E/J.

Regarding the bulkier rear fuselage of the S, this seems to be a urban legend as there's no indication of such difference in any of the official documentation. Of course the S has a number of other differences.

Speaking of Starfighters in Europe in the '70s, one possible solution may be to build a CF-104 ! This variant is very close to the F-104J and a model can be built from your kit with no big modification. Canadian aircrafts at some point were equipped with 3 blisters for an RAW system but you can build an early '70s aircraft without these. Decals are quite easy to find.

Denmark and Norway also received a number of CF-104s in the '70s, but the Danish aircrafts were brought to full G standard by Lockheed before delivery so had the bulged doors. The Norwegian aircrafts on the other hand retained the original wheel and doors of the CF-104. It's easy to tell a Norwegian CF-104 from an F-104G: the CF were in green over grey while the Gs in natural metal or light grey

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Hi Franky 

 

The main differences that will be noticable in 1/48 scale is the bulged main gear doors. 

 

Over on 1999.co.jp you often find the complete instructions, and the instructions for the F-104G is here: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10047502

The F-104G main gear doors are on Sprue F, while on the F-104J it is on Sprue E. 

(The nozzle is the same in both kits, so nevermind this) 

 

As already mentioned, C2 bang seat was used by Belgium, Canada, US (F-104A/C) Norway, Japan and the Netherlands while Denmark, Italy and Germany used the MB7. Note that Germany had F-104G's based in the US with USAF titles, these also carried the MB7 seat. 

The C2 seat is included in the F-104J kit. 

 

Greek, Taiwan and Turkish F-104's are mostly hand-me-downs from various air forces (Norway, Germany, Denmark, Canada, Belgium) and hence can carry a mix of both types of seats depending on time frame in question, so check you references. 

 

www.Airfighters.com is a good place to look up a lot of reference pics, and can be searched by Country, airplane type etc. 

 

I have spare main gear covers, so PM if interested? 

 

Edited by Boman
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Hi Boman 

 

Thanks for the interesting info, that's really useful, especially the link to the instructions. Everything is on the sprues, no AM needed.

 

 I notice your in Norway, I've just ordered a decal sheet from Armycast with a very nice looking Norwegian  Starfighter in natural metal with I think white or very light grey wings. This is the aircraft  I was intending to model.

 

Thanks again.

 

James

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7 hours ago, franky boy said:

a very nice looking Norwegian  Starfighter in natural metal with I think white or very light grey wings.

 

Excellent choice! - on uncamouflaged Starfighters, wings were Gloss White on top with Gloss ADC Gray bottoms. 

 

HTH,

 

Andre

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10 hours ago, franky boy said:

Hi Boman 

 

Thanks for the interesting info, that's really useful, especially the link to the instructions. Everything is on the sprues, no AM needed.

 

 I notice your in Norway, I've just ordered a decal sheet from Armycast with a very nice looking Norwegian  Starfighter in natural metal with I think white or very light grey wings. This is the aircraft  I was intending to model.

 

Thanks again.

 

James

 

Like this one?

F-104G_RNoAF_6362.jpg

 

Jens

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Hi, James

ADC Gray stands for Air Defence Command Gray IIRC and its FS would be 36473. I am not certain but I think it was actually matt (or satin) colour, polished to look practically gloss. Convair F-106 Delta Dart is an example of an aircraft in ADC Gray scheme overall. Cheers

Jure

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On 2/9/2017 at 2:08 PM, franky boy said:

Thanks for the informative replays everyone. 

 

Its actually a very straight forward conversion, easier than I thought.

 

Here's another small difference: late Japanese 104s had a unique small sensor or light at the very rear of the horizontal tail. Hasegawa's 1/72 kit has it, but neglects to tell the builders of G models to remove it. I guess the 1/48 is the same in that respect (I don't have it).

 

Rob

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Hello

Yes, Boman, I am aware of that. What I am not sure about is a vague recollection of reading somewhere that ADC Gray was actually 36473 or 26473, polished to high gloss during aircraft service life. Can somebody confirm or deny that? And by the way, is Coin Gray the same colour as ADC Gray or something completely different? Cheers

Jure

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10 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

And by the way, is Coin Gray the same colour as ADC Gray or something completely different?

 

"ADC Gray", like all FS color names, is unofficial. The designated nomenclature is just that - FS 16473. 

 

COIN aircraft like the OV-10 and O-2 were indeed painted this shade as well early in their careers. 

 

See Technical Order 1-1-4 (pdf-alert!), fig. B-14. 

 

HTH,

 

Andre

 

 

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 As written before the main estetical difference between the F-104J and F-104G are in the undercarriage area; pay also a lot of attention at various antennes and sensors, a good collection of pictures in mandatory.

 Just a little note OT about the difference between the G and S : the fuselage is the same, only the exaust are different; also a little difference, but pratically ininfluent in 1:72 and 1:48 is the lip of the air intake : in the S it is half an inch (real scale) shorter than in the G.

 Last : Italeri had announced a re-boxing of the Hasegawa plastic with Cartograph decals , probably the cost will be lower than Eduard and Hasegawa.

 

r.

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15 hours ago, bertopinal said:

 Just a little note OT about the difference between the G and S : the fuselage is the same, only the exaust are different; also a little difference, but pratically ininfluent in 1:72 and 1:48 is the lip of the air intake : in the S it is half an inch (real scale) shorter than in the G.

 

Another often overlooked difference - the leading edge of the (main) ventral fin of the F-104S has a different angle than those on all other variants. 

 

F-104G: http://www.916-starfighter.de/916starfighter/pics/large/f104u13274.jpg

F-104S: http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wA9-32.htm

 

HTH,

 

Andre

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Norwegian F-104Gs had the white over grey wings as standard for all natural metal F-104s, however the tailplanes could be in either grey 16473 or in dark grey 36118. Among the aircrafts with dark grey tailplanes were those coded FN-R, Z, T and X. The picture linked here shows this detail on FN-T

 

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wNFN-T.htm

 

A small detail is that the original 13 aircrafts were actually RF-104Gs ! All however had the recce equipment removed very soon in service. Later another 3 aircrafts were purchased, coded FN-L, Y and G. These 3 were G built by Canadair and featured light grey fuselages, except for the rear area (again very common on many Starfighters).

Later all aircrafts were painted in an overall grey scheme and lost the tricolour markings on the tail

Edited by Giorgio N
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