perdu Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Coo they do look like some part of the sensor suite don't they... Nice little complex wibbling with plasticard and Mr Liquid Goo should sort that quickly though Lovely blackly domed in shiny sensors, not quite so easy but you will whisk them out in no time I should run away now, you are reawakening Canberra love I thought I'd laid to rest ages (OK months) ago I have all this Nautical stuff in a stash I have to build first 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 37 minutes ago, perdu said: I have all this Nautical stuff in a stash I have to build first Well, I certainly can't discourage you there. Navy is my first name after all! Cheers, Bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 I'm guessing from photos of XH134 that her wheel hubs are silver, landing gear struts are Light Admiralty Grey, while the landing gear doors and wheel wells look like the underside colour of Light Aircraft Grey. Top is Hemp, no, wait, we can't call it that - too close to well, you know, and we wouldn't want any jokes about that now would we? Let's just call it BS4800/10B21 Lizard Grey. Really, that's what it says at http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp. I kinda thought it was BS381C/389 Camouflage Beige, but I like that Lizard thing better! How far off am I? The tailplanes have been mounted to the fuselage using the @71chally designated "easy way out." What can I say? I'm lazy. The tailplane root blend into the fuselage still needs some work. Not quite happy with it yet. It already looks miles ahead of what Airfix moulded. What on earth were they thinking? Making this modification is quite easy, but results in tailplanes that don't have a solid way to align them to set the dihedral. I made a simple template from cardboard to set the dihedral angle. Since this angle is measured through the middle of the tailplanes (pretty much the seam line of the top and bottom halves) compared to horizontal (or vertical as I chose) I compensated the angle of the template to take the taper of the tailplane and fin into account. Hey, low tech, but it works. The tailplane span, across the elevator hinge line, came out to 101 mm, not far off the proper value of 102 mm. I don't know, but methinks she be starting to look like an aeroplane. Cheers, Bill 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martian Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 You will have this finished in no time at this rate Bill. The low tech way of fixing the tailplane dihedral really appeals to a luddite like me! Martian 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Hi Bill Just a quick one before I go off to work, the hubs may well be silver I'll take a look tonight, the legs doors and well's are white, not grey and the underside colour is medium sea grey not light aircraft grey as would normally be the case. The PR.9's have always been MSG on the underside. The top is " Hemp" John Edited February 24, 2017 by canberra kid Correction's to auto correct😊 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Bill, The wing tip mod's are countermeasures, I suspect that all the last mode were CAD generated as there are no drawings of them in the last version of the PR.9 AP's. other than the sensor and navigational instruments in the cockpit. There are more photos of the wing tip in the PR.9 album on my site. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 2 hours ago, canberra kid said: The top is " Hemp" And always will be Hemp...!! Good grief, is PCness now affecting what we call the paint on our aeroplanes?! to the Hemp naysayers, tell them to keep their noses out of our paint...!! Long live Hemp !!! Keith PS I know I've led a sheltered life, but what is Hemp too close too - Bemp, Semp, Temp, Lemp....??? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 That looks superb Bill, just so! Great work on the tailplanes and those panel lines. You're right with that upper white box like sensor, it doesn't appear to be fitted to XH134 later on. I think the wing tip sensor jobie is in effect added on to the wing tip, it modifies the clear lamp fairings as wel,l so study the pics. The navigation light is repositioned to the edge of the wing tip. I think if I was to tackle it I would reduce (cut or sand straight) the kits' wing tip and lamp transparency, and then add on the sensor part with plasticard or similar. I'm just glad I prefer the silver and camo birds, none of these extras to worry about! Yes wheels, are natural aluminium and the UC legs, bays, and door interiors being white. They do get dirty though! I only no it as Hemp, work of the devil as it replaced soooo many nice schemes! Really great news for me, I had a couple of days off and hunted high and low for those PR.9 detail shots I took, if you need anything please let me know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moaning dolphin Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 More great work, she is really coming together. Sometimes you cant see the wood for the trees, so you have no idea how much head scratching this has prevented Such a simple idea. I was thinking along the lines of trying to set the fuselage level then working out the angles from that......why not just use the fin as the datum Cracking stuff! Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 53 minutes ago, moaning dolphin said: Such a simple idea. I totally agree with Bob, here. Simple yet smart and effective idea Ciao 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Most of pics uploaded now Bill, there's some useful stuff for under the fuselage, inside weapon, equipment & undercarriage bays, cockpits etc album here https://flic.kr/s/aHsjBKd4Nf mainwheel Canberra PR.9 XH131 by James Thomas, on Flickr Nosewheels Canberra PR.9 XH131 by James Thomas, on Flickr wheel well and leg Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr Wingtip detail Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr Edited February 24, 2017 by 71chally 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 5 hours ago, keefr22 said: PS I know I've led a sheltered life, but what is Hemp too close too - Bemp, Semp, Temp, Lemp....??? Not sure what it's close to, but it's a type of marijuana. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 1 hour ago, limeypilot said: Not sure what it's close to, but it's a type of marijuana. Ian I know! But I prefer to think of it as; "Hemp Beige. The distinctive, natural colour of cloth made from hemp fibres. Grown in Asia and the Middle East, hemp fibres have been used for millennia." So the PC colour brigade can put that in their pipes and smoke it!! Keith 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 Thanks for all of that, mates! Even the diversion into Mary Jane land... Some background. First, this is a photo of the nose gear of XH134 in her retirement scheme. I just can't see that gear leg being white. Here is a different aircraft, but a closer photo. I need more convincing that the nose gear leg is white. The main gear legs in the photos above provided by @71chally do indeed look white. Could they be white and the nose gear grey? I even found a thread here on BM where @canberra kid speculates that the nose gear for a particular aircraft might be grey: Next, about the underside colour. Airfix says to use Humbrol 166 for this camouflage scheme. Humbrol 166 is Light Aircraft Grey. Xtrakit says to use Xtracrylix X015 which is Light Aircraft Grey. Model Alliance, in the instructions for the decals of the retirement scheme states that the underside is BS381C:627 Light Aircraft Grey and then proceeds to list several model paints including those I just mentioned. When Brett Green built the Xtrakit PR.9 on Hyperscale, he painted the underside Light Aircraft Grey. I'm detecting a pattern. Model Alliance says that the vertical tail for this scheme is Medium Sea Grey BS381C:637. Using the colour server at the link I referenced above, Medium Sea Grey is a darker colour than Light Aircraft Grey. Which is just what we see in this photo - the tail is darker than the underside. I've collected a lot of photos of XH134 in her retirement scheme, and a lot of them have been graciously sent to me by fellow Britmodellers. I know all about the problems of trying to determine a colour based on photographs - but the underside colour doesn't look like Medium Sea Grey to me. It doesn't have any bit of blue in it. It's a very neutral grey. However, I think that Medium Sea Grey is seen on the underside of some PR.9 aircraft in the Grey/Green camouflage scheme. Could this be the source of some confusion? Here is Hemp and Medium Sea Grey from the colour server: This is Hemp and Light Aircraft Grey: Now, be honest. Which one looks more like the fuselage colour and the underside in the above photo? And which one looks like the fuselage and the vertical fin? Not to be disrespectful, but I'm not buying that the underside of Hemp aircraft is Medium Sea Grey. I believe it's Light Aircraft Grey. I'll keep believing that until someone shows me the order from MOD or RAF etc. that directs the painting of PR.9 aircraft in Hemp/MSG. And then I probably still won't believe it because the photos don't support it. Finally, about that Hemp stuff. My bottle of good old Gunze Sangyo GSI Creos Mr. Color Mr. Hobby Aqueous Hobby Color H336 says on the label BS4800/10B21 Hemp. That particular colour has, apparently, been renamed Lizard Grey by Keith's PC Brigade. Somehow, somewhere this has changed to BS381C:389 Camouflage Beige. These two colours are very close to one another, but they don't seem to be identical matches. Why the change? I'm just curious... OK, OK, now I'll go back to work. Cheers, Bill 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Sorry I was referring to the main gear legs, and should have been clear on that. In my shots above, XH131 nose gear leg is grey. The drag link part of the nose gear on that second aircraft (XH135) in is in an unfinished colour, ie primer. The nose gear leg is in that light grey finish as standard, it was common to the Shackleton so wouldn't be surprised if the legs were supplied in the one colour. Good pic (not mine) here, I must admit that I thought it was light aircraft grey underside. However I've not made one in that scheme and I could be getting that from the similar Nimrod scheme, and nothing more scientific than that. Edited February 24, 2017 by 71chally 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 Aha! Interesting. Portion of the nose gear is shared with a Shackleton - who would have thought? So there is a reason why it is grey and the others white! I thought my question was silly. Let's make sure I have it right, the wheel wells, landing gear doors (inside), main gear legs, main gear hubs, nose gear fenders, and inside the flaps are white. Nose gear strut is grey. Would it be Light Admiralty Grey, like on the Buccaneers? Nose gear hub looks silver in some photos, grey in others. (Are the nose wheels shared with the Shack, too, or just the leg? This would be the Shack's tail wheel?) Does part of the main gear door cover a portion of the main gear leg? Your photo has me wondering - this could be added to the Airfix part with card stock. Wing walkways look like solid yellow stripes, but Xtrakit provide solid pink/striped yellow lines in close proximity. Airfix provide nothing. Hmm... Last for this post, is there a raised edge around the escape hatch for the navigator? Or maybe the hatch panel sets slightly proud of the surface? Airfix have nothing at all in this area, Xtrakit have a raised edge. Hard to tell from the photos exactly what is there. I think I'll go off to John's site and poke around some more. Cheers, Bill PS. Great walkaround photos, James! Thanks for taking the time to upload those. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Bill Not wishing to be charged with spreading "False News" I conceded the underside colour is a bone of contention, I can't make my mind up, but I'd still be inclined to come down on the MSG side. I think the fin colour may be Dark Camouflage Grey? The camouflage scheme for the PR.9 has so far as I know, always been Dark Sea Grey, Dark Green, Medium Sea Grey. the standard Hemp scheme as used on the Nimrod and Canberra T.17/17A was Hemp, Light Aircraft Grey, but the PR,9 has always been an exception to the rule. It was found that at the high altitudes the PR.9 operated at the LAG looks very bright against the dark sky so MSG was chosen as a best compromise, that need for camouflage at altitude didn't disappear when the PR.9's whent Hemp. The nose gear is grey, I suspect they are units that have been serviced by Dowty and repainted by them? apart from the hubs everything is gloss white as laid out in the AP. There is a raised area running along the top of the Nav's hatch, this is the MDC to assist with escape. The walkway markings are a solid yellow line, they are in the standard position apart from along the spar cap. Apropo nothing, the wing tip mod. is "SEM/CAN/232 introduces a modified wingtip mounted Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) under ARI 18228/18. The RWR is an Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system, which provides visual and audible warning of the presence of illuminating radar emitters in the frequency range of 2.5 to 18 GHz through 360 of azimuth" John 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Quote Aha! Interesting. Portion of the nose gear is shared with a Shackleton - who would have thought? So there is a reason why it is grey and the others white! I thought my question was silly. Just conjecture on my part, but if you have a component produced/refurbished sat in stores that fits two types it might be finished in one colour. Quote Let's make sure I have it right, the wheel wells, landing gear doors (inside), main gear legs, main gear hubs, nose gear fenders, and inside the flaps are white. Nose gear strut is grey. Would it be Light Admiralty Grey, like on the Buccaneers? Nose gear hub looks silver in some photos, grey in others. I would concur with most of that, u/c bays and doors inner surface white. The stone guards seem to be mainly white, but have seen natural aluminium ones, and the wheels are generally in natural aluminium - certainly on your '134. Flaps on XH135 are a painted dull aluminium finish for their inner surface, but the flap bays in the wing are white. Canberra PR.9 XH135 1308 (2400x1599) by James Thomas, on Flickr Quote (Are the nose wheels shared with the Shack, too, or just the leg? This would be the Shack's tail wheel?) the Dowty leg and wheels assembly is the same as Shack MR.2 tailwheel, they are interchangeable, Shacks don't feature the stone guards though. Quote Does part of the main gear door cover a portion of the main gear leg? Your photo has me wondering - this could be added to the Airfix part with card stock. The main u/c door is very thick and the leg is kind of embedded in it. the Airfix ones definitely need padding out. Most kits get this feature right, including the old Matchbox one! Another thing I don't like about the kit, the wing to fuselage join is stepped out from the fuselage, in reality the main undercarriage bay inboard wall is the fuselage structure, and the inboard u/c door is almost at the wing fuselage join. On your 72nd kit I don't think it's a biggy, but on the 48th one its horrible. From the rear Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr From the front Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr Quote Wing walkways look like solid yellow stripes, but Xtrakit provide solid pink/striped yellow lines in close proximity. Airfix provide nothing. Hmm... My pictures of XH135 show these as a solid yellow line, adjoining a pink hatched line Canberra PR.9 XH135 by James Thomas, on Flickr 055 (2400x1347) (2) by James Thomas, on Flickr Quote Last for this post, is there a raised edge around the escape hatch for the navigator? Or maybe the hatch panel sets slightly proud of the surface? Airfix have nothing at all in this area, Xtrakit have a raised edge. Hard to tell from the photos exactly what is there. I think I'll go off to John's site and poke around some more. The hatch edge appears to be very slightly raised, or at least visually noticeable, from the surrounding structure - might have been an age thing! Edited February 25, 2017 by 71chally 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 More on the wheel leg and door, and the undercarriage album on my site Wheels and Well's album John 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 51 minutes ago, canberra kid said: The camouflage scheme for the PR.9 has so far as I know, always been Dark Sea Grey, Dark Green, Medium Sea Grey. the standard Hemp scheme as used on the Nimrod and Canberra T.17/17A was Hemp, Light Aircraft Grey, but the PR,9 has always been an exception to the rule. I don't think that is right John, and I wonder if the AP has an inaccuracy that has been perpetuated through various volumes? APs do make mistakes sometimes. The camo PR.9 were definitely light aircraft grey undersides, and this is given in the RAFs own paints and finishes AP. I've also spoken to people that have painted them here where I work, and they only ever used LAG. When it comes to the hemp/grey finish I can't help but agree with Bill, however I don't have any first hand evidence for it, apart from seeing the aircraft and looking at pictures. Those walkways are definitely yellow solid, with pink dashed lines, unless they varied between aircraft, which would be a bit unusual. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 As you were! I think I've changed my mind The attached photo shows the camera fitted to the flair bay doors still in the MSG, although I still wouldn't rule it out completely it is looking very much like LAG John 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 There is a pink hash line but in 1/72 I would guess it will be all but invisible. 38 minutes ago, 71chally said: I don't think that is right John, and I wonder if the AP has an inaccuracy that has been perpetuated through various volumes? APs do make mistakes sometimes. The camo PR.9 were definitely light aircraft grey undersides, and this is given in the RAFs own paints and finishes AP. I've also spoken to people that have painted them here where I work, and they only ever used LAG. When it comes to the hemp/grey finish I can't help but agree with Bill, however I don't have any first hand evidence for it, apart from seeing the aircraft and looking at pictures. Those walkways are definitely yellow solid, with pink dashed lines, unless they varied between aircraft, which would be a bit unusual. I know AP's aren't the be all and end all, especially with the Canberra, but I will stake my reputation on the MSG underside on the Camo PR.9's, there I've said it! John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canberra kid Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Further to the MSG debate, the first PR.9 to be camouflaged was XH167 in Gloss Dark Sea Grey and Gloss Dark Green upper surfaces with the new colour Gloss Grey BS2660 on the underside, this colour was predecessor of Light Aircraft Grey. As I said earlier it was found that this new light grey was very visible when the aircraft was flying at high altitude, so it was decided to try MSG when the aircraft in exercise "Dazzle" it was found that MSG was much more satisfactory. Despite the official AP calling for DSG DG LAG as being the colours to be used on the Canberra the PR.9 appears to have avoided this until perhaps the introduction of Hemp. John 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Bird Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 Excellent reference material, as always gentlemen. Thank you all! As we all know, aircraft go through a dizzying amount of modifications during their service life, and I think it was mentioned earlier that trying to keep up with all of the changes the Canberra went through is nigh impossible. I think the best answer to any question I ask is "Well, it depends..." Since I'm modelling XH134 in her retirement scheme, I've been trying to focus mostly on photos of her if they're available. I was just going through the collection again, and I came across this photo of her in 2004 at Kemble: The flap and flap bay both look white to me. I believe that XH134 got a fresh paint job for the retirement (not sure when that happened though) - maybe white was used for the flap at this time? Speculation...but it appears that all parts of the flap are the same colour, save the strip of Hemp. While we're looking at that photo, look on top of the spine to the left of the blade antenna, but not quite to the roundel. See the tiny bump? This is where that small box-like structure appears on some Canberras. Airfix provide this part, but it's obviously not there on XH134 at this time. In its place is what appears to be a round plate that covers the box's attachment point. It looks to be painted white in top views. Am I interpreting this correctly? Today I will try to figure out a way to make the wingtip mods and the MDC for the navigator's hatch. Cheers, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71chally Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Most aircraft are a minefield when it comes to questions of componants and colours, and there is rarely a clear cut answer. Youre doing the right thing by looking at shots of your actual subject where you can. The flaps colour thing is a classic example of variations across a type. I would definitely agree with white there. Actually that shot is one of the clearest I've seen showing the fuselage plate upper edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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