Spitfire K9938 SD-H April 1939 - undercarriage selector and gunsight?

[Biggles81]

Gents,

 

I am working on a 1/48 Airfix Mark I kit which I have decided to depict as a 72SQN aircraft circa April 1939. This will be SD-H, possibly K9938 based on:

 

K9938

Ia

150

EA

MII

FF 18-4-39 72S 'SD-H' later 'ZP-W' 21-4-39 shot down by Bf109 aircraft abandoned crashed nr Herne Bay dbf Sgt Norfolk safe 2-9-40

 

This aircraft has a similar appearance to K9942 SD-D which is extant in the RAF Museum collection. This later aircraft was restored by the Medway Aircraft Preservation Society with the early hand pump undercarriage control and a ring and bead sight fitted. I have been trying to reconcile these details and have looked through many of the Spitfire threads here without luck. My two questions are; would a Mark I Spitfire in this period still have the manual undercarriage pump, as many references state that this was quickly replaced by the engine mounted hydraulic pump control type by 1939? The second question being the ring and bead sight. Would this have been correct for the period of April 39 or would a reflector sight be more approriate?. The only photo I have found of the subject (an air to air photo) is ambiguous as you cannot see these details.

 

This is the subject aircraft:

 

 

Any help is much appreciated.

 

Ken

Edited February 1, 2017 by Biggles81
added link to photo

[Biggles81]

By looking at contemporary 19 and 65 Squadron photos I am now pretty sure the ring and bead sight is correct, but still curious regarding the undercarriage controls. Thanks.

[Peter Roberts]

I am away from home at present so can't double check, but I do recall the undercarriage retraction mechanism was changed around May 1940, so fitting the earlier set up would be appropriate for your model. I am looking to build a Mk I around the time of Dunkirk and unsure which one to fit. 

 

PR

[Biggles81]

Hi Peter, frustrating being away isn't it? I am on an extended overseas posting and all my references are in storage and out of reach. Surprisingly the topic of undercarriage controls was never one that came up in the "All the Spitfire Questions" thread on this board or any of the others where gents such as Edgar Brooks, Peter Arnold and Gingerbob provided such fabulous information.

 

Most of what I can find online point to the change occurring sometime in 1939 though, and May 1940 at first glance seems a little late but these things have a tendency to surprise.

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

[Graham Boak]

Bear in mind that these things did not happen overnight, and would generally first happen on the production line.  If we accept the 1939 date, then Spitfires coming off the line after this will have had the later standard but that does not mean that earlier aircraft will have been refitted.  The reflector gunsights, being Government Furnished Equipment, were not necessarily fitted on the production line but at a later MU.  In view of their operational advantages, they are also most likely to have been brought into use on a squadron by squadron refit basis.  Tuck writes of his unit being visited by Luftwaffe leaders (Milch?), and being told not to say anything about this device, but to claim that it was so new that he hadn't been trained in its use.  Milch of course asked about it, whereupon an accompanying staff officer promptly gave a full description.  This annoyed Tuck, but must have amused Milch as the Luftwaffe were ahead of the RAF in this particular technology and there seems little doubt that he knew very well what it was before he asked.

[gingerbob]

Especially considering that the first reflector gunsights (as I recall) were purchased from Austria!

 

Sorry, I don't know about the manual hydraulic pump- spring '40 strikes me as late, and I've seen comments that (some) OTU birds were so old that you had to pump up the gear, so I don't think there was widespread retro-fitting.  If I get a chance I'll poke around and see what clues I can come up with.

 

bob

 

EDIT: OK, here's the first clue.  Mod No. 158 "Mk.I only" is "To provide guard for the multi-point plug for electrical services introduced by Mod 74 into the starboard wing root (not applicable where Alteration 21 introducing the power driven undercarriage is embodied.)" [my emphasis].  This Mod was discussed 28/11/39 and "Cleared"15/6/40.  Unfortunately, I don't know what "cleared" actually means, but the first date might be helpful.  Now to see if I have a record of Alt 21, which I think I do...

 

A Mod (205) was "approved" in April '40 concerning the piping system for power-driven undercarriage, but it isn't clear whether this is introducing the pump (and what is required in the hydraulic system) or just improving the system already in place.  Ah, the Mod ledger says "To Modify piping system for power operated undercarriage to facilitate production." first considered (by LTC) 30(?) March, and "cleared" 1/ July.  It also applies to Mks I and II, so must just be a production improvement.

Edited February 2, 2017 by gingerbob

[Biggles81]

Thanks very much for the input on this Gents. Seems that 1940 was not late when it comes to the engine mounted hydraulic undercarriage controls being fitted (sorry for doubting you Peter). Seems on the balance of probability that K9938 in early to mid 1939 would be fitted with the manual pump. No more excuses now, on with the build.

 

With all my references in storage I have had to rely on the internet and this just proves you need to double and triple check on these arcane but important points.

[Peter Roberts]

Hi Ken

 

Back home now and able to check info.

 

I posed a similar question back around June 2013 re: the u/c retraction. Edgar replied that (as Bob has pointed out above) the date of change over is something of a mystery but that there was an amendment dated April 1940. He indicated that there were reports of aircraft using the original system throughout the BoB (also in line with Bobs reply).

 

It looks like you are right to use the old unit based on this information.

 

The gunsight is a funny one. Looking at replies from earlier posts here it seems the reflector sights were first ordered in 1937 and installed in Gladiators in 1938 but early Spitfires clearly have ring and bead sights fitted. This has been attributed to delays in supply. If this were my model I'd go with ring and bead for April '39.

 

Hope the build goes well!

 

Cheers

 

PR

[Biggles81]

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for the follow-up confirmation. I still can't find the original thread although I have found one where you asked the question and Edgar responded as indicating April 1940. Between your and Gingerbob's input I am happy to stick with the manual pump. How did your Gordon Olive build go after all of that?

 

Cheers,

 

Ken

[gingerbob]

Well, back again with another clue- I just re-discovered a series of amendments to the 1st Edition of Spitfire I manual (Air Publication 1565A Vol.1)(thanks Edgar!) and Amendment List 10, dated April 1940, introduces the wording "Undercarriage (hand-operated type)" in a number of places, as well as the text covering "Undercarriage (power-operated type)".

 

While my original interpretation was NOT that the hand pump was replaced around April '40, the fact that the manual was not updated until then implies (to me) that it wouldn't have been much before that.  (That would put the serial somewhere, very roughly, around P9440 (or, about 600 Spits built), but don't put any faith in that estimate.)

[Peter Roberts]

Ken, Gordon Olive build is a long term effort using the 1/32 Hasegawa kit. Very looooong term..... Looks like your build will be quicker.

 

Great further info Bob. Nice work with the serial no. - a good guesstimate guide.

 

PR

[Termie]

On 06/02/2017 at 12:55, gingerbob said:

Well, back again with another clue- I just re-discovered a series of amendments to the 1st Edition of Spitfire I manual (Air Publication 1565A Vol.1)(thanks Edgar!) and Amendment List 10, dated April 1940, introduces the wording "Undercarriage (hand-operated type)" in a number of places, as well as the text covering "Undercarriage (power-operated type)".

 

While my original interpretation was NOT that the hand pump was replaced around April '40, the fact that the manual was not updated until then implies (to me) that it wouldn't have been much before that.  (That would put the serial somewhere, very roughly, around P9440 (or, about 600 Spits built), but don't put any faith in that estimate.)

Nice, that means I can safely make Bader's P9443 with hand pump...

[Rolls-Royce]

Deleted.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[WLJayne]

I'm also interested in this scheme, because although we have a scheme in development for K9843 DL-N, we're having a tough time finding photos of that aircraft, and this would be just as good as a pre-war spit scheme.

 

Would SD-H have swung the two bladed prop at this time?

[Rolls-Royce]

5 hours ago, WLJayne said:

I'm also interested in this scheme, because although we have a scheme in development for K9843 DL-N, we're having a tough time finding photos of that aircraft, and this would be just as good as a pre-war spit scheme.

 

Would SD-H have swung the two bladed prop at this time?

Shacklady says the factory production of Spitfires with the 3-bladed 2-speed DH began with K9961 (8-5-39), and it's likely that conversion of in-service aircraft would have been put in hand at about the same time if not sooner. So the time window for its wearing of a two-blade prop was likely very short. 

[Graham Boak]

I think that you need some caution there.  The same thing can be said for Hurricanes, but Paul Richey was still flying a 2-blader in France in early 1940, and I doubt that he was the only one.  Production of these propellers would not have been massive, and are unlikely to match the numbers of airframes both building and already built.

[Biggles81]

SD-H had a 3 blade prop when photographed. Wingleader covered this airframe in detail in their Spitfire Mark 1 Photo Archive, they managed to find more photos of it including one that shows that it did not carry wing roundels. See https://www.wingleader.co.uk/shop/spitfire-mk1-wpa1 for details.

[WLJayne]

On 9/25/2021 at 1:39 AM, Biggles81 said:

SD-H had a 3 blade prop when photographed. Wingleader covered this airframe in detail in their Spitfire Mark 1 Photo Archive, they managed to find more photos of it including one that shows that it did not carry wing roundels. See https://www.wingleader.co.uk/shop/spitfire-mk1-wpa1 for details.

Yes I had a look through the book and saw the same. I think we're going to go with that one because the photos are quite clear. It does look to me like it's got the three bladed prop in the photos.