Question about olive drab shades/colors

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello all,

.  Just have a question about the color/s that are called olive drab. I wish to paint my Pearl Harbor P-40 B (and eventually a Doolittle raider B-25) in the proper shade of OD green but am not sure about the shade. I use Model Master enamels and they have a pretty good variety, but the shade I am looking for is the more brown shade (an ANA color?) that seemed to be used at the beginning of the war, not the more yellowish-green shade I often see. A good example is the P-40B on the airshow circuit that is in the USAAC/AF color, with the white "300" buzz number. If anybody knows what shade this color is, or FS# that would help. 

Thanks guys

[Chuck1945]

Pearl Harbor predated the ANA colors. You want Olive Drab 41.

[Guest]

Great! Do you know if there is an FS number for that color?

Thanks much

[MilneBay]

Try this which is referred from the Stockholm site

 

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_us.htm

 

They give this as the FS reference although FS didn't exist then.

 

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=30227

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, MilneBay said:

Try this which is referred from the Stockholm site

 

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_us.htm

 

They give this as the FS reference although FS didn't exist then.

 

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=30227

Thanks, looks like Testors doesn't make the color so I will have to mix the paint myself. Probably 34087, (which was the post 1943 OD Green supposedly) with a touch of brown. And I thought this would be a piece of cake compared to the Japanese color maze I have been negotiating!

Cheers

[Drift]

Tamiya OD is also pretty spot on.  I use TS 28 (OD 2) or TS 5 (OD)

Edited January 25, 2017 by Drift

[e8n2]

49 minutes ago, Spitfire addict said:

Thanks, looks like Testors doesn't make the color so I will have to mix the paint myself. Probably 34087, (which was the post 1943 OD Green supposedly) with a touch of brown. And I thought this would be a piece of cake compared to the Japanese color maze I have been negotiating!

Cheers

For my eye, I would rather use Testors 34086.  It looks more like the darker olive that I have always associated with Olive Drab paint.  The 34087 they put out, as somebody mentioned before, is too greenish, more like an actual green olive bought in your local grocery store.

Later,

Dave

[Work In Progress]

Pre FS standards olive drab cannot practically be assumed to be a single colour for modelling purposes. Not only was it highly prone to changes in appearance due to weathering, fading and potentially other environmental effects, but there are good reasons to believe it wasn't particularly standard even when it was new.

 

The best thread I can recall on it is this one:

 

[Chuck1945]

There is no FS number that is the same as Olive Drab 41. There are perhaps some that come 'close', depending how accurately you define 'close'. There were also noticeable variations in paint supplied as OD 41 (according to a talk Dana Bell gave at an IPMS convention some years ago, no paint that was submitted for evaluation by the materials branch at Wright Field was rejected as not the correct shade as long as it was close) That said, camouflaged pre-war P-40Bs may have been done with paint that did come close to 41.

 

Don't think of it as a minefield, just remember there is no FS# for OD 41, OD 41 varied quite a bit, and pick a hobby paint color that looks 'right' to you. While it is said Tamiya's OD XF-62 is an armor color, I like it for OD 41.

[Seawinder]

Suggestion 1: Mix Model Master 34087 (actually a rather inaccurate rendition of that FS chip) and Green Drab 34086 1-to-1; then add a smidgen of red to taste (to make it a bit browner).

 

Suggestion 2: Don't worry so much about trying to achieve a perfect match for ANY Olive Drab. As others have said, there were differences batch-to-batch, plus color shifts as it weathered. I will say that a PH P-40 would have had a pretty dark shade, not faded all to h--l.

[bentwaters81tfw]

14 hours ago, Drift said:

Tamiya OD is also pretty spot on.  I use TS 28 (OD 2) or TS 5 (OD)

I use TS 5. Bomb proof.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Our Olive Drab 41 (ACUS15) is fairly brown

 

My daughter used it on her Airfix 1:72 P-40B and it looked fairly decent but I seem to have killed Photobucket now.

[MilneBay]

Something else which I have found from many many years of modelling (that means I have a lot of models that were built 30 or more years ago  ) is that over time proprietary model paints can and will brown so the older models in OD I have have acquired a brownish tint that wasn't there when the paint (enamel) was fresh. Exposure to light, dust etc. also contributes, plus of course the type of clear finish applied. But saying just let the model sit for 30 years or more isn't any help for you so I suggest that you just mix the colour to suit your interpretation - the real OD of the period was subject to variations and also was not a particularly stable colour.   

Edited January 25, 2017 by MilneBay

[Guest]

2 hours ago, SovereignHobbies said:

Our Olive Drab 41 (ACUS15) is fairly brown

 

My daughter used it on her Airfix 1:72 P-40B and it looked fairly decent but I seem to have killed Photobucket now.

Yes, that color looks a deeper brownish green. I have 34087 but it is a little too green for pre 1943, although I have seen pictures of early P-47's in England that seem to be too dark for olive green, more of a dark olive drab. I have also been trying to figure out the proper olive green for my Hayabusa, and the closest equivelent seems to be 34086. The problem with the olives, especially the more drab, is that the hues seem to change quite drastically with the light, which also depends on the light source. Artificial light, like the kind we use to build by will not reveal the true colors or hue like good old direct sunlight. I figure a touch of helo drab may work well to get "my interpretation" of the color that I assume will work best. By the way, my daughter has been building since she was 7 years old. Her first kit was a 1/72 Testors (old Hawk kit) Corsair. For her history's project she did a poster board with F4U's on it, her teacher thought I put her up to it but it was all her. She recently started on a P-51B and is doing it in the colors of Col. (Ret) Bob Friend of Tuskeege fame. She got to meet him personally and told him she would send a picture of the completed kit when she was done. More daughters should build, that way they know their aircraft when they get taken to the air shows!

Cheers

Edited January 25, 2017 by Spitfire addict
Missed a word

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Seawinder said:

Suggestion 1: Mix Model Master 34087 (actually a rather inaccurate rendition of that FS chip) and Green Drab 34086 1-to-1; then add a smidgen of red to taste (to make it a bit browner).

 

Suggestion 2: Don't worry so much about trying to achieve a perfect match for ANY Olive Drab. As others have said, there were differences batch-to-batch, plus color shifts as it weathered. I will say that a PH P-40 would have had a pretty dark shade, not faded all to h--l.

Thanks again Seawinder, I have both those colors so I will give it a whack.

Cheers

[Fernando]

Hi, everyone,

 

An alternative way might be going for the colour that was the (probable) origin of OD 41, that is, "RFC Green". Robert D. Archer promoted Humbrol "RFC Green 108" as the ideal OD 41. That is long extinct, I understand (I exhumed several tins from a supermarket at Nairobi). Xtracolour equivalent might be too brown (there were actually several versions of RFC GReen, greener or browner according to the predominant component in the formulae). Again, taking his opinion about the "green/brown and dark/light" balance, the old WEMM's OD 41 I have (I think from the very early batches) is, in my view, too green (nothing like the swatch above); however, the tin marked "ANA613" looks like perfect (though it shouldn't!) Xtracrylixs "ANA 613" again looks quite right, as do MM "FS34086" (note that I use those nomenclatures only to identifiy the paint I am talking about, not as a proper colour code)

 

FErnando

[JPuente54]

Back in the '70s, I was at the Chicago area Squadron Shop(when it was a chain of stores as well as a mail-order firm); several other customers and the manager were discussing olive drab and its exact shade. At one point, either the manager, or, a customer, made the statement: "Olive drab is a concept, not a color.". All of us in the store agreed with that. The different contractor's, the quality of the paint, the weather conditions, etc., make it almost impossible to arrive at the "correct" shade of OD. Couple that with a "close enough for government work" attitude by some of the govt. acceptance people, just add to the confusion. It didn't help when the standards were changing from the OD No. 41 to the ANA Standard. Oh, and the OD used by the Army for its vehicles(tanks, jeeps, trucks, etc.) was a different shade of OD used by the Army Air Force(the vehicle OD(properly Olive Drab No. 39))! Illiad Pub. in its line of aircraft camo. schemes with paint chips shows the ground Army's OD(a very dark green/brown when fresh out of the can; it was one of several used by the AAF in North Africa. Another has the chip of the OD used by the AAF. They are different. Close, but, still a difference. The AAF shade was Dark Olive drab No. 41; the ANA color was called Olive Drab #613.

However, it is a forum such as this which helps to really get to the facts and the actual color(s) used by the military forces of the various nations. This is one of the better threads that I have seen and read on the subject of "OD". Jamie, your OD 41 is probably as close a match as any. I'd use it without any hesitation.

[Chuck1945]

Not to add any more confusion here since the original question was OD for a Pearl Harbor (Dec 1941) P-40B, but reference has been made to ANA 613 Olive Drab more than once in this thread. While Army-Navy discussions about the possibility of common colors were going on even before the US entry into WWII, the ANA standards were actually formulated after Pearl Harbor.

 

I dont know if Nick Millman is watching this thread; I am sure he has better information, but my understanding is that when the ANA (Army-Navy-Allied) colors were agreed upon, 613 was to replace OD 41 and be suitable also for as a replacement for RAF Dark Green. This may be part of why 613 is more green than 41. From all the articles I have read though, the Material Division continued to specify 41 for USAAF aircraft until camouflage was discontinued. There is apparently little evidence that 613 was ever actually used on USAAF aircraft in the ETO.

[Nick Millman]

1 hour ago, Chuck1945 said:

 

I dont know if Nick Millman is watching this thread; I am sure he has better information, but my understanding is that when the ANA (Army-Navy-Allied) colors were agreed upon, 613 was to replace OD 41 and be suitable also for as a replacement for RAF Dark Green. This may be part of why 613 is more green than 41. From all the articles I have read though, the Material Division continued to specify 41 for USAAF aircraft until camouflage was discontinued. There is apparently little evidence that 613 was ever actually used on USAAF aircraft in the ETO.

 

I was watching. I don't know if this will help or hinder but . . . . 

 

Dark Olive Drab 41 was a permanent camouflage paint introduced, following a series of tests, in AAF Bulletin 41 issued in September 1940. It was promulgated as the standard upper surface camouflage colour for AAF aeroplanes from 1941 to late 1943. The pigment specification was optional leaving manufacturers free to formulate their own paints to match the standard which was specified in both lacquer and dope formats. This resulted in paints which although matched to the appearance of the standard could and did age and weather very differently once applied to aeroplanes. Army FM 5-20H - Camouflage Materials and Manufacturing Techniques of July 1944 advised in Section 1. Paragraph 5, PAINTS. (e). ..."In spite of color standardization, there is considerable variation in hue between lots and between the products of different manufacturers."

 

That doesn't mean that OD was a "concept" - because there were specific colour standards for it, however much the actual applied paints might have varied. There is 1944 Army documentation on the testing of 28 manufactured olive drab paints which demonstrates that some were accepted within an established tolerance and others rejected if they didn't meet it. The measurement involved was exacting, plotting Munsell values (!) all of which were Yellow (Y) hue and comparing them to the standard which was specified as 7.0 Y 3.70/1.73. The colours were broadly divided into browns and greens, then further sub-divided with commentary on their characteristics such as "brownish gray", "medium yellowish brown", "weak olive green", etc. Anyone interested in seeing those and the number crunching involved is welcome to drop me a PM. 

 

The real concept is actually this:-

 

1. The established, agreed and promulgated colour standard

2. The variance in the batches of manufactured paints

3. The variance introduced by application methodology

4. The effects of service exposure and weathering on the applied paints.

 

Those four main factors tend to get conflated in discussion and added to those is how hobby paints shape up, which involves a lot of subjective preference.    

 

In March 1942 the JAC (Joint Aircraft Committee) agreed that Dark Olive Drab could be substituted for MAP Dark Green (RAF) on aircraft manufactured for export to Britain. In July 1942 it was agreed that this colour would be standardised as Olive Drab ANA 613 and substituted for MAP Dark Green and MAP Dark Slate Grey (FAA). The new ANA standards were not officially issued until September 1943 by which time an Army intervention had slightly altered the appearance of this colour.

 

In January 1943, Major A.I. Totten Jr. of the Army Resources and Production Division proposed to consolidate the two shades of Olive Drab in use at the time, the USAAF dark Olive Drab 41 and the Army Ground Forces (AGF) Olive Drab, into a new colour Army/Navy (AN) 319, which was the same colour as the AGF (Army Ground Forces) Olive Drab. Major Totten's proposal was passed to the JAC Technical Sub-Committee on Camouflage by the Director of Military Requirements in February 1943 and approved by them in March 1943, prior to the promulgation of the ANA colours. Therefore the standards 319 in Army Spec 3-1 Revised of April 1943 and 613 of ANA Bulletin 157 of September 1943 were supposed to be equivalents and have been reported as identical. The 1943 Bulletin 157 ANA 613 Olive Drab and Dark Olive Drab 41 are slightly different in appearance.

 

One of the reasons for the delay in introducing ANA 613 related to the reflectivity requirements. The original Dark Olive Drab was 7.8% but tests by Material Command Engineering Division at Eglin Field in June 1943 revealed that the new paint had a reflectivity of 9.4% which exceeded the recommended 8%. Various measures were then undertaken to reduce the reflectivity of ANA 613 before it was accepted for use as a standard. ANA 613 was eventually reduced to 7% which was the same reflectivity as MAP Dark Green. The slight change in appearance between the two colour standards was also related to the need to conserve Chromium Oxide.

 

TO 07-1-1 of April 1944 announced the discontinuation of camouflage of AAF aircraft but has sometimes been confused because it listed authorised camouflage finishes for liaison aircraft, helicopters and gliders using paint to either Olive Drab 41 or ANA 613 standards. There is little doubt that stocks of paint to Dark Olive Drab 41 standard would have been available through to the end of the war. In Bulletin 157e issued in 1964 Olive Drab ANA 613 was superseded by a new colour FS 34087 incorporated into FS 595a and of appreciably more brownish appearance. The matching of FS 34087 to ANA 613 has caused considerable confusion about the true appearance of the latter colour.

 

This information, the colour values involved and a comparison of the colour standards are included in my PDF report The Development of USAAC/USAAF Olive Drab (1923-1964) available on request. I think I may have even provided copies to some of the posters here. The closest FS 595 value to OD 41 is our old friend FS 33070. 

 

Nick

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Could I please have a copy of that PDF report Nick?

[Chuck1945]

Great explanation Nick. Would it be possible to get a copy of that PDF?

[Tbolt]

Interesting stuff. I would like to see that report also if possible Nick.

[Nick Millman]

Jamie - yes! Will send.

 

Chuck1945 & Tbolt please drop me a PM with the email address you'd like me to send it to, thanks.

 

Nick

[KRK4m]

Somewhere in the mid-60s I've bought a Revell 1/72 P-47D, then numbered H-613. It was years before the Humbrol Authentic range appeared on the market. But I remember well the recipe Revell had printed there for the Olive Drab and Neutral Gray. NG had to be the result of mixing Black and White 1:1, while OD used the same proportions for... Black and Yellow. I don't remember today (mind it was more than half a century ago) whether I have used Humbrol 24, 33 and 34 or Airfix M6, M10 and M15. But I do remember that since then I have never seen better matching (i.e. more convincing) USAAF colours on the Jug...

Cheers

Michael 

[JPuente54]

Thanks, Nick for your remarks, as always, you shed light on a color subject. I believe that the 'concept' remark was made in the context of trying to match a subject that had been in service in the North African, or Pacific, etc. campaign(s) for some time(it was also accompanied by some laughter). I remember seeing(at the same store) a photograph of a town square in Italy or Sicily that is filled with vehicles(jeeps, trucks, tanks, etc.)(US Army), all nicely parked. None of them were the same color(It was a color photo). They ranged from a light tan in color to a medium-dark brown. Now, one does have to take into account the film quality, the type, the negative's age when that photo was printed, etc. All would have looked close to the standard that to which Nick refers in his statement above when they came out of the paint shop at the factory. But, each paint weathered differently depending on the company's formula, the climate and weather of the theater, etc. results in such a variety of colors that one has a great leeway in depicting the color of Olive Drab. While these were ground vehicles; aircraft painted in OD would, and, could have similar results.

That said, Nick is absolutely correct in his remarks above. He, and Dana Bell do the best research on aviation colors that I have seen and read. You labor long and hard to find and share your findings with the rest of us. And, on a personal note, for you guys new to BM, Nick was most generous with his time and knowledge with me when he answered a couple of questions that I had concerning IJNAF aircraft. Glad that you weighed in on this one, Nick!

                         Joe

Edit: Ooops! I should have written that the above referenced photo was in a book or modeling magazine that the manager found and showed to several of us. I have seen it in other publications since then; again, don't remember exactly which ones(hey! this was in the '72-'75 time period).

Edited January 27, 2017 by JPuente54
Extra information and clarification