AZModel 1-72 Morane Saulnier Type G - Back in Time for Dnieper

[Old Man]

What I have found is a pretty good method is ordinary pencil over white. You would need to spray the fabric areas with a white paint (Tamiya Fine White is good). It's all right if there are some areas not completely white, but you want things mostly white. Then just trace in the places where wood elements would show, or where you think they would show. Then put down thinned coats of your linen color (hairy stick or air). You will find the pencil against the white shows through. Somewhere between two and four such coats you should find the effect you are looking for. Remember this is a light effect, not a color effect. Things showing through on the underside of the wings, for example, should be darker relative to the linen color than they would be on the upper surface of the wing, or on the fuselage sides, as the sunlight strikes through the wing and gives the undersurface a sort of 'glow' that reflection off the upper surface does not. Here is a picture illustrating the effect achieved (a scratch-built Martinsyde Scout)

 

 

I don't usually do the effect on fuselages, and on most wing uppersurfaces, the ribs are taped, and this actually gives the ribs a paler look than the rest of the surface. Indoors, and in overcast, this would be true on undersurfaces as well, if their ribs are taped. (Pictures taken with flash indoors at museums can be deceptive in this regard).

 

One thing that shows in a lot of photographs is that when the motor is running in these types, particularly in rotary powered machines, fabric on the fuselage sort of 'sucks in', so that the frame stands out a little on the surface. I would not suggest you try and 'break the plane' on this model to get this effect, but offer it as something to think about in future builds. Eduard's 1/72 Fokker EIII kit gives a pretty good illustration of the effect, as does Roden's 1/72 Camel kit.

 

(Note on the Martinsyde; there are no roundels on its upper wing, so no attempt was made to show them through. By blocking the light, the painted markings on an uppersurface can be perceived through clear linen from below, but that would not matter on a monoplane marked on both surfaces)

[clive_t]

Thanks OM, most enlightening.

[Brandy]

I use a similar method to OM. On clear doped aircraft the ribs show on the undersides as darker (shadows) but on aircraft that have coloured upper surfaces (pc10 etc) the ribs on the underside are lighter! As OM stated, this is an effect of the light, so you could easily get away with not doing it, and just say it's an overcast day! As for the fuselage, a lot of single engined rotories showed extensive staining on the fuselage. This tended to reveal the fuselage structure as lighter. I have used thin strips of masking tape to represent the formers, then lightly applied pastels over the tape.  When you remove the tape you get a lighter line where the structure is.

 

Ian

Edited February 12, 2017 by limeypilot

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, limeypilot said:

I use a similar method to OM. On clear doped aircraft the ribs show on the undersides as darker (shadows) but on aircraft that have coloured upper surfaces (pc10 etc) the ribs on the underside are lighter! As OF stated, this is an effect of the light, so you could easily get away with not doing it, and just say it's an overcast day! As for the fuselage, a lot of single engined rotories showed extensive staining on the fuselage. This tended to reveal the fuselage structure as lighter. I have used thin strips of masking tape to represent the formers, then lightly applied pastels over the tape.  When you remove the tape you get a lighter line where the structure is.

 

Ian

 

I like your method for suggesting formers on a fuselage. One thing about rotaries is that the oil discharged often worked its way inside, and this likely contributed to the effect you describe.

 

I disagree, though, about tapes on the underside showing lighter if the upper surface is painted. I offer this well-known picture of a downed Camel in evidence:

 

 

It is clear from the shadows that the sun is striking fairly full on the wings, and you can see for yourself what this does to the taped ribs. There is no question the upper-surfaces of the wings of this machine were in full PC-10. Now, if the under-surface, too, is painted, as on some German machines, or if the linen is of very coarse quality, like on some early Fokker monoplanes, you will not see darker ribs. In a museum photograph looking up at a plane and taking a picture with flash, you will see lighter tapes, just as you would see lighter tapes looking at the upper-surface of a wing in sunlight.

 

But I do not mean to hijack the WIP thread for this engaging build, and will hold my peace on the matter in future here.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Old Man

[Brandy]

I can't argue with what the photo appears to show, but the sun is shining on the lower surfaces, not the upper! I can only offer these two pics, taken by myself, without flash. Both are in the lobby of the IWM and in the same sunlight conditions, on the same day..

 

 

 

Ian

[Old Man]

Sun is on the upper surfaces, Sir.

 

Look under the tail-plane, and at the shape of the shadow between the aeroplane and the bicycle.

 

 

[clive_t]

Thanks, both, for your inputs on this matter. I'll have a go at doing something to hint at this effect - how good it will look remains to be seen of course, but I will share here in due course.

 

One interesting thing I note from those photos you've shared here, is that the ribbing on the underside of the wing is less pronounced, ie it doesn't 'stick out'.

 

I am wondering now if I should remove the bits of wire from the undersides of the wings.

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, clive_t said:

I am wondering now if I should remove the bits of wire from the undersides of the wings.

 

On a Morane you should leave them on, because they represent a tacked on half-round strip.

 

What is generally absent to the eye on the under-surface is any 'sag' between the ribs. If anything, there might be a little bit of 'billow' to the fabric between the ribs on the underside. The effect is of a flat surface, with the tapes showing. If the fabric has been so stretched by use that it is sagging and billowing greatly, it needs to be replaced and the machine is not airworthy. The taut stretch of the fabric after doping was an element of structural strength, and machines could break if the fabric was too slack. An early Vimy which crashed was found by a board of inquiry to have done so because because the doping had not been fully done.

[clive_t]

More progress, of sorts, and some painful lessons learned...

 

Firstly, the port wing ribbing was completed, and as expected looks more pronounced due to a less 'intense' scribing:

 

 

I decided to paint the fuselage and the wings separately, in the hope that it would be 'easier'! Ah well, we will see:

 

 

The dark colour on the fuselage and the underside of the wings was courtesy of Games Workshop's 'Bleached Bone' acrylic with a small addition of some 'Snakebite Leather'. When masked at the wing ribs and the fuselage framework, give the desired darker shade:

 

 

The lighter colour on top of the wings was courtesy of Games Workshop 'Bleached Bone' acrylic on its own. This would hopefully, when masked at the ribs, give the desired lighter shade:

 

 

I then decided to drill holes in each wing to receive a brass rod, which when passed through the fuselage behind the seat would then add some structural strength:

 

 

Once that was done, I was then able to mask where the lighter/darker shades should show through:

 

 

The paint used to provide the all-over base colour was the old favourite of Bleached Bone with some Tamiya Yellow added:

 

 

Removal of the masking was not without its traumas. Specifically, there were some areas where big lumps of paint I'd applied the day before were peeled off with the masking tape Fortunately, I had kept the unused mixture of each shade, and was therefore able to patch up the gaps with some careful brushing. What then remained with the feeling that the colours were too 'different', the masked areas - particularly the wings - were too regimented, too regular. So I decided to try and soften the tones a little by brushing on some Titanium White 'oil' paint (although it's water soluble)  and then wiping off the excess. This pic shows the difference on the upper wing surfaces:

 

 

Both upper surfaces together:

 

 

The same trick was then applied to the wing underside:

 

 

 

I still have to do the fuselage in the same way, but I've called a halt for today as I want the patched paintwork to dry off as much as possible first.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by clive_t
Replace Photobucket pics with Flickr pics

[Old Man]

Keep at this, Sir, you will be a deft hand at clear-doped linen finishes. Going over that with white was a good move.

[clive_t]

Thanks OM, you're most kind. A quick update, and simultaneously a test to see if I can post pics hosted on my Flickr account. This afternoon, having arrived home from work about half an hour earlier than usual, I gained a brief port-hole of opportunity, during which time I attempted to dull down the fuselage with some titanium white: 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by clive_t
Make link embedded

[clive_t]

Drat, for some reason I can't do the embedded photo thing from my phone  . Ah well, tablet to the rescue

 

Anyway, while I was about it I found some pale yellow 'oil' paint, and applied it to the underside of the wings, to make the ribbing a bit less obvious:

 

The camera lies somewhat in this pic, sadly, as the ribbing is now more subtle than it appears here.

Edited February 22, 2017 by clive_t
Added another photo

[clive_t]

Last pic for today - the fuselage and wings together - well,almost :

 

Flash used this time to try and show the true lightness of colour now. Still a little darker than reality though!

 

In taking this photo, it occurred to me that I could drill holes at the front of each wing for another supporting rod, that way I will have a much stronger join. When the paint has dried, I will do that.

[Old Man]

That is really shaping up a treat, Sir.

 

Good to see this coming together --- soon, it will be looking like an aeroplane!

[Martian]

Looking good!

 

Martian

[Brandy]

She's coming on a treat, looking very nice indeed!

 

Ian

[clive_t]

Thanks, gents, very much appreciated!

 

Don't you hate the pain that some of the lessons learned in this otherwise-wonderful hobby are wont to inflict?

 

Like, when you learn that just when you think your 'oil' (albeit water-soluble) paint wash is now permanent, the subsequent application of a layer of Klear proves you spectacularly wrong...

 

Not only that, but this revelation only becomes apparent to you when the 'oil'/Klear solution, a fetching shade of pale linen, is now adorning your painstakingly painted (indeed, re-painted), hitherto black, engine cowling...

 

I guess I have discovered the modelling equivalent of putting a pair of red socks in with the 'white' wash...

 

Another couple of steps 'back' to be regained tomorrow, then...

 

[clive_t]

More progress today, despite incurring more 'collateral damage' to the paintwork at various places. I am resolved to not worry about that until I am done with the construction work.

 

As mentioned earlier, I decided to drill another set of holes for a second supporting rod, in the front of the wings. I also cut off the useless 'locating pins' on the wings:

 

 

Suddenly, it started looking like progress - aside from the mess I made to the front of the starboard wing by some wayward drilling :

 

 

I then made a windscreen out of some clear acetate from an old blister pack. Messrs AZmodel neglect to include any such acetate, but instead rather helpfully advise me that I could cut my own out, and the dimensions need to be 9mm x 3mm! Actually, according to my reference pics it needed to be smaller than that, so I went for 7mm x 3mm:

 

 

At last, I was able to contemplate fitting the tail control surfaces. However, given that my eventual intention is to apply rigging, I needed something to 'rig' to - so, some control 'horns' were made from the same very thin wire I used for the inside of the cockpit:

 

 

 

With those fitted, I was able to go ahead and attach the horizontal stabilisers:

 

 

... and then the rudder:

 

 

So, after the trials and tribulations of yesterday, not too bad a day today

 

Thanks for stopping by!

 

Edited February 24, 2017 by clive_t
oops - pics too big!

[It's a disease]

 

Bristol f2b prop

 

royal aircraft factory RE8

(and an albatross in the background)

 

Prop references........

these are from the grahame White factory at Hendon RAF museum, I'm fairly sure there is a morane saulnier just inside the entrance. (I didn't shoot it though!)

sorry!

 

I like the trick with the wire on the wings......I don't build ww1 but this looks like a pretty nice kit......

 

[clive_t]

Thanks for these pics, very interesting. I will be repainting the prop soon.

[It's a disease]

No worries, there are some pics in that album that show differing light through the wings (click a pic it'll take you right to it). Most shots are without flash, and aircraft are inside. I guess different fabric thickness plays a part, some are virtually see through (be2b) and look exactly as described above (old man, top of page) others are the reverse of this (504k).

The light was pretty similar.

I guess it depends on the actual aircraft and its particular construction method.

[clive_t]

Thanks for that, just spent an enjoyable hour wandering through the rest of your Hendon photos, looks a good place to visit. 

[Old Man]

Coming along nicely, Sir.

 

Accidentally making a wash of the white seems to have had a good effect. The applicable motto is: "If you can do it twice, it's a technique."

 

Regarding the cowling and metal panels. Hot castor oil thrown off by the motor was very hard on the enamel paint Morane employed. Once a machine had been in service a while, a lot of bare metal showed. Depending on how weathered you want the model, something to think about....

[clive_t]

13 hours ago, Old Man said:

Regarding the cowling and metal panels. Hot castor oil thrown off by the motor was very hard on the enamel paint Morane employed. Once a machine had been in service a while, a lot of bare metal showed. Depending on how weathered you want the model, something to think about....

Duly noted sir, and thank you for your comments.

 

Yesterday was another day of triumphs and tribulations, weighted slightly in favour of triumphs thankfully. I had already made some modest progress earlier in the week by painting the undercarriage components on the sprue:

 

 

This was a somewhat confusing time for me, as it became apparent that there were some undercarriage parts on the sprue that are not intended for use on this model! A little further research yielded the revelation that this sprue also gives parts for the AZmodel 'Pfalz E1' kit - this also explained the presence of a fuselage mounted machine gun moulding.

 

I started looking at the details of the tail skid, with its incorporated 'special weapon' a la Nesterov. This is in the form of a PE supplement to the plastic sprue. Oddly, it appears to be brass electroplated with something looking like steel:

 

 

Progress on this area, however, was brought to a sudden and unfortunate halt as I rather carelessly reduced one of the plastic parts to its constituent atoms when trying to free it from its sprue

I need to give some thought to how I replace this part, and with what.

 

I had more luck turning my attention to the undercarriage. I was a bit concerned that the brittle nature of the parts would be a problem if I tried fitting it to the fuselage at this stage, so I decided to try and make it as a separate unit to be added at a later stage:

 

 

Another problem then surfaced, however, this time with the instructions. Trying to work out which 'V' shaped lump of plastic goes where, the instructions rather confusingly seem to mismatch the numbers, and in one instance mentions the same number in two different places. So with some reference to several pics, I think I have worked out the correct parts for the undercarriage:

 

 

A quick dry-fit to the fuselage to see how it looks:

 

 

While I was looking at the various pics and diagrams I have amassed, it occurred to me that there is some sort of aperture in the fuselage floor, through which various cables seem to enter (or exit). Not only that, but there also appears to be the bottom end of the control yoke, also protruding from the floor of the fuselage, which has the control cables running from it, through this aperture, then re-emerging at the rear of the fuselage to allow upward/downward motion of the control surfaces. So, unfortunately, it looks as though I have some holes to make in my carefully painted fuselage floor, which could be a world of pain in waiting...

 

Thanks for stopping by!

 

 

[clive_t]

Some more progress this week.

 

Firstly, the slot in the base of the fuselage, for various cables to enter/exit. 3 small holes, then the rest was removed with a scalpel:

 

 

I then had an idea for replacing the broken bit of the tail skid. Not sure what you call it, but the replacement is from a small piece of scrap plasticard with 2 small holes, then 2 bits of wire to act as the legs:

 

 

I then made a 'fuel tank/stowage section' to sit behind the pilot. The filler cap was made from a very small disc of metal which is what one finds (in their thousands) when one rips open an ankle/wrist weight from a long-forgotten keep-fit regime:

 

 

A similar use was found for a second disc, as the filler cap for what I presume is the oil, given that it seems to be in close proximity to the engine:

 

 

I then made a start on building the tail skid, using my home-made component:

 

 

In the distance, just beyond the slot I cut earlier, you can just about make out the bottom end of the control yoke, sticking out of yet another hole in the fuselage. Here it is in close-up:

 

 

Finally for now, the fuselage with its fuel tank and stowage compartment in situ:

 

 

Next up, I hope to finish off the tail skid section. I am almost at the point of applying decals, too, I think.

 

Thanks for watching