Tomahawk Belly Color Jan 1942

[FloydWerner]

I plan on doing Tomahawk Mk.IIB AK578 of P/O Neville Duke of 112 Squadron in January 1942.  Should my under surface color be Azure Blue or Sky Type S?  I understand the aircraft was repainted in Middle Stone and Dark Earth over the Temperate Dark Green and Dark Earth.  My question was the belly overpainted as well?

 

Sorry for the questions but I'm just an uninformed American trying to do this aircraft justice.

 

Thanks

Floyd

[bull-nut]

AFAIK if the aircraft served in North Africa, and the time frame does suggest it, then the underside Sky Type S, would indeed have been overpainted Azure, probably at the same time as the Dark Green was overpainted with Middle Stone.

 

There is a colour pic of a Kittyhawk in NA on 112's Wiki page.

[Cameron Lynch]

I'm doing the same thing only portraying Clive Caldwell's AK498 from 250 Squadron.  After digging around a bunch of references and a few key questions posted on the web I've reached the following conclusion.

 

RAF Tomahawks were factory painted in the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Earth and Dark Green over Sky.  This was done using DuPont facsimiles of the RAF colors...so you have DuPont 71-013 for the Dark Green, DuPont 71-009 for the Dark Earth and DuPont 71-021 for the Sky Grey.  FS34092 is considered a good match for 71-013.  FS30219 is a reasonable match for DuPont 71-009.  DuPont 71-021 is a bit trickier but consensus seems to be about FS36222.  From the factory landing gear was aluminum.  Wheels would have been underside.  Cockpit color is a morass of contradictory info.  I have read that Curtiss painted the cockpits in their approximation of RAF interior Gray/Green.

 

They were then depot repainted in North Africa with RAF stocks.  RAF spec Middlestone overpainted the DuPont 71-013 dark green, with a soft edge demarcation.  Where aircraft serials were on the green, they were masked off...leaving a square patch of green under the serial.  There is a little ambiguity about the underside.  Some photos may indicate that some Tomahawks were left with the light grey undersides, while other photos clearly show that they were repainted with RAF Azure.  It does appear that when they were repainted, the main gear were repainted as well.

 

Other RAF modifications.  The seat was replaced with one with Sutton Harnesses and most often was left aluminum.  A tube was mounted in the cockpit in front of the instrument panel to which an RAF reflector gunsight was mounted.  An antenna mast (included in the Airfix kit) was mounted on the spine of the fuselage between the tail and the canopy.  It is unclear and contradictory about whether the .30 Browning wing guns were replaced with RAF .303 Brownings.  The only visual difference in scale would be the hole pattern of the cooling jacket.  I'm hoping Master Model in Poland comes out with a set of .303s without the flash hiders that we can use.  The nose Browning .50s were retained.

[LDSModeller]

8 hours ago, FloydWerner said:

I plan on doing Tomahawk Mk.IIB AK578 of P/O Neville Duke of 112 Squadron in January 1942.  Should my under surface color be Azure Blue or Sky Type S?  I understand the aircraft was repainted in Middle Stone and Dark Earth over the Temperate Dark Green and Dark Earth.  My question was the belly overpainted as well?

 

Sorry for the questions but I'm just an uninformed American trying to do this aircraft justice.

 

Thanks

Floyd

 

I 'm guessing you may have read through this?

RAF Camouflage colours

 

AMO's:

AMO A926/40 (12 December 1940) and A.513  Camouflage Colouring and Markings of Aircraft (10 July 194l.) specify the lower colours of Desert Air Force aircraft are to be "Duck Egg Blue (Sky Type S)"

 

If you skip to A.664  Camouflage, Colouring and Markings of Aircraft July 1942 and read through "Appendices i/ii/iii

in section 1 (see link)

Appendices i/ii/iii

If you scroll down to section 2 iii you will see that Day Fighters Abroad, can be Sky/Azure or Light Mederterranean Blue. Note the Term Sky, the "Type S" has been dropped as has Duck Egg Blue.

 

So to answer your query for January 1942, I would go with Duck Egg Blue(Sky Type S)

 

Not sure what paints you use, but if you look at this paint Swatch of mine from a Curtiss P 40E-1 you can see the actual DuPont colours (albiet not Mid Stone) - Note the Duck Egg Blue(Sky Type S) is a very pale Blue with a Greenish tinge (not grey or anything like it)

Curtiss DuPont TLS Colours

 

I would be wary of FS numbers

 

Edit: I saw your post on Hypersace and the "Colour" photo posted to answer your question - bear in mind that that P40 photo could be after the changes in the latter part of 1942 per Appendix i/ii/iii. so a repaint in with either Light Mederterranean Blue or Azure Blue very possible.

 

P 40 Photo Link

 

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by LDSModeller

[FloydWerner]

I think I'm happy with going with MS/DE and Duck Egg Blue (Sky Type-S).  These early desert P-40s are a pain.  Just when you thought you had it all figured out.  Bloody Hell.  The interior color wasn't the same, or probably wasn't, the belly is not the color I expected.  I'm going to stick to German aircraft as they are easy to figure out.  LOL

Floyd

[Nick Millman]

The unattributed colour image posted at Hyperscale (it is from an IWM photo) is poorly copied/processed and does not accurately represent the colours on the original print.  Therefore as evidence of original paint colour it is worthless! Therefore unfortunately the opinions about it follow suit. 

 

For RAF Tomahawks in the MIddle East the upper surface colours were modified to the Desert scheme first, by over painting the Dark Green with Mid Stone or Light Earth, and the under surfaces subsequently re-painted Azure. The chronology of the re-painting is obscure.   

 

Even if the Tomahawks were originally painted with Dupont paints (and there is some evidence that Berry Bros paints were used):-

 

71-013 is nothing like FS 34092

71-009 is nothing like FS 30219

71-021 - there is no FS 36222 in FS 595, consensus or otherwise. There is, however a 35622 which is closest but which gives a misleading impression of the colour as it is slightly more blueish and brighter. 71-021 is even less like FS 16473. Anyone contemplating using that latter colour on the under surface of a Tomahawk should probably ask themselves "Would I use this on the under surface of a Spitfire in Temperate Land scheme?" before firing up their brush and enthusiasm. 

 

Alan's P-40 sample appears identical to 71-021, as do other paint samples from P-40E ET589, a Kittyhawk originally intended for the RAF but diverted to USAAF use and flown by the 49th Fighter Group in Australia. This aircraft was painted in RAF-style Temperate Land scheme (TLS) camouflage with the tail number '87'.  A sample of extant paint reportedly from a Soviet Tomahawk and sent to me by Hume Bates does not match any FS colour. Although badly degraded it is a pale blue-grey with an almost imperceptible greenish undertone applied directly over a blue lionoil finish. At first glance it is more blueish than the P-40E samples but there might have been more yellow pigment in the original paint. The upper surface colours are almost identical to US Army Spec 3-1 Supplement colours 317 Forest Green and 303 Field Drab. The latter colour became a recognised equivalent for Dark Earth. Although listed as a Spec 3-1 equivalent to MAP/RAF Dark Green, 318 Dark Green is closer in appearance to US Medium Green 42, but lighter and is not like the colour on the Tomahawk pieces which is darker and more olive, closer to MAP/RAF Dark Green. The under surface paint is slightly more blueish-grey than 323 Sky Gray (which despite its name is close in appearance to 71-021 and like a paler, washed out and slightly greyish RAF Sky - imagine if you will a hybrid of RAF Sky and RAF Sky Grey). The reverse side of the upper surface metal pieces reveals either an exposure darkened zinc chromate or yellow-green/tinted zinc chromate (TZC) over a lionoil prussian blue coating. 

 

The paint samples are attributed to Tomahawk IIB (RAF serial AK255) or Tomahawk IIB (RAF serial AK295) recovered from Russia in the 1990s. Those were from a batch of 471 Tomahawks delivered between December 1940 and October 1941. AK255 was sent to Russia in August 1941 and AK295 in September 1941. The first January 1941 allocation of Tomahawks to the AVG were later taken from the same block - AK466 to AK570. This is long before the Spec 3-1 colours were even promulgated but there you go. The upper surface colours appear similar to those seen in a good colour photograph of AVG Tomahawk '91' which was from the February 1941 allocation with the original RAF serial number AM439 and Chinese serial P-8150. The immediate preceding Tomahawk AM438 was sent to the Middle East and was operated by 112 and 250 Sqns RAF before being struck off charge from 73 OTU on 26 May 1943. 

 

Nick

 

 

[Cameron Lynch]

To be honest Nic...the tone of your reply is a bit off-putting.  I didn't pull this stuff out of my bottom.  What I did do was hit reply without having my references in front of me at the computer, and doing some of this from memory is a bit treacherous.  My references included; 

 

Dana Bell's Aircraft Pictorial #5 P-40 Warhawk

Thomas Tullis' Tigers Over China, The Aircraft of the AVG EagleFiles #4

Terrill Clements' Sharks of the Air, Camouflage and Markings of the American Volunteer Group

Dana Bell's Aviation Color Primers #1 US Export Colors of WWII

Ian Baker's Aviation Colouring Book #57 P-40 Camouflage Special

Dana Bell's Curtiss Camouflage Schemes for RAF P-40s, Finescale Modeler January 1995.

Aero Imageworks, Antipodean Hawks Desert Shark Attack! Curtiss Tomahawk in the Mediterranean War Guidebook to Camouflage & Markings.

 

As far as FS# equivalency...I am aware, as is Floyd (who I have known and corresponded with for at least a decade), that the FS system isn't a color matching system like Munsell, and that any matches with it are pure eyeballing.  But in many cases references match the DuPont colors to model paints available at the time....which may or may not be available currently or where you happen to live.  In some cases the paint formulas have changed over time and the colors within a line of modeling paint may no longer match the original shades.  You are correct, I stated DuPont 71-009 for the Dark Earth color, and I was mistaken...it should be 71-065 which broadly matches FS30219.  DuPont 71-009 was a different shade of Dark Earth that more resembled a sandy color...commonly seen on 49th FG P-40E's and called the "sand and spinach" scheme.

 

Dana Bell states that the DuPont Dark Green 71-013 "resembled US Medium Green (AN612/FS 34092)".  Dana is pretty well regarded on the subject and I'd trust his judgment...so I don't know exactly where you come up with "71-013 is nothing like FS34092".

 

The interpretations of US paint manufacturers during the early part of WWII of the RAF Color Sky Type S is a morass.  Consensus is that there are two shades that were used and called Sky.  A light grey color and another duck egg blue shade.  The Tomahawks of the AVG were painted using the light grey shade, and it is likely that shade was also used on the aircraft obtained by the RAF.  So what was the shade of this color.  The peril of responding without your references in front of you, the FS match my references have is FS36440 or Flat Gull Grey.  I haven't edited and corrected my original post to avoid confusion, but it should be FS36440 and not FS36222 which does not appear in my copy of FS595b.

 

So if we presume that the Desert Air Force Tomahawks were delivered to the RAF in the TLS scheme.  What were the colors used?  Looking at the body of research on the AVG Tomahawks, they were delivered from the factory with DuPont 71-013 and 71-065 over 71-021.  I'm not convinced that looking at later P-40E Kittyhawks is useful.  The Kittyhawks in TLS appear to have the Dark Earth 71-065 replaced with the Sandy DuPont 71-009.  It also seems that the undersides of the TLS Kittyhawks were the shade of duck egg blue.  It's even possible that a different shade of "Dark Green" was used on Kittyhawks as well instead of 71-013?  It would appear that Kittyhawks were delivered already painted from the factory in a tropical scheme using DuPont/Berry matches for Middlestone and Azure.  I would be comfortable painting any tropical P-40E from the Desert Air Force in the DuPont/Berry colors for Dark Earth and Middlestone over Azure.

 

But back to the RAF Tomahawks in North Africa.  If they were factory painted in some form of TLS...at some point they were at the very least repainted with Middlestone over the Dark Green.  Then the question becomes, were the undersides also repainted at the same time?  Later at some point?  Nick would suggest that the topsides were repainted but the undersides were not, at least for awhile.  Still as I understand it 112 Squadron received their first Tomahawks in July 1941...and that they were reequipping with P-40E Kittyhawks by December of 1941.  So the Tomahawk only saw front line combat with the RAF for five months.  At what point between July and December 1941 were repainted underneath?  Or were they never repainted underneath?  I suggest that if they took the time at the depot to replace the seats, install a proper reflector gunsight, a new radio and antenna mast and possibly replace the wing guns with .303s as well as painting over the Dark Green with Middlestone before issuing the aircraft to combat squadrons, it wouldn't have required much more time or effort to repaint the undersides in Azure.  I'm not sure we'll ever conclusively know, although I'd welcome something definitive to answer these questions.  Those were difficult days in North Africa and a great deal of ad-libbing was going on to try and stop the Afrika Corps.

 

Interestingly there are some superb videos up on youtube of DAF Tomahawks.  

 

 

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The idea that the US had two different shades to represent Sky, although now taken as original gospel by some US modellers, appears to have come from interpretations of rather washed-out photos, notably of the Airacobra/P-39/P-400.  It doesn't help that the Dupont 71-021 was called Sky Type S Grey, though quite where the unwanted "grey" came from I've never seen explained.  There was a different colour called Sky Grey used by the Fleet Air Arm, which has added to the confusion.  I've not seen any hard evidence that the Tomahawks were painted in a light grey: as you say yourself they were painted in Dupont 71-021, which a duck-egg blue (if not quite the same hue as the British original).

[72modeler]

Now, boys- if you're not going to behave, we're going to wash your mouths out with Diosol! Having said that, I for one have learned a lot and have enjoyed reading every forum post on this topic; maybe by the time I get around to doing an AVG or 112 SQ Tomahawk, you guys will have sorted it all out for the rest of us! (If only they had digital cameras back then....)

 

Mike

[Nick Millman]

1 hour ago, Cameron Lynch said:

To be honest Nic...the tone of your reply is a bit off-putting.

 

Sorry about that, but what would you rather I do, keep quiet so as not to "put off" some cherished opinions with a few facts? 

 

1 hour ago, Cameron Lynch said:

 Nick would suggest that the topsides were repainted but the undersides were not, at least for awhile.  

 

I would also suggest that the chronology of the re-painting is obscure. In fact I wrote that in my original comment!  

 

1 hour ago, Cameron Lynch said:

so I don't know exactly where you come up with "71-013 is nothing like FS34092".

 

 

 

By measuring the 71-013 paint swatches and actual applied paint samples from P-40Es and Tomahawks as described above then comparing those values to FS 34092 using the DE2000 difference calculation. 71-013 vs 34092 is at a difference of 7.22 where < 2.0 = a close match. They are also different hues. Most of the references you cite above seem to have derived the paint colours by other means. I've not seen any actual measured paint colour values or reference to the physical examination of applied paint samples in any of them, and I have them all, including Terrill Clements pre-Osprey 1997 privately published booklet on AVG colours, with the exception of the Aero Imageworks publication. Mr Clements book suggests that the British requirement was for "Sky Type S Grey" confused for Sky Grey, whereas other US manufacturing diagrams - and indeed British documentation - suggest that the term "duck egg blue" was being communicated. He also states that the photographic and eyewitness evidence (not cited) establishes the use of a light gray beyond doubt, then goes on to say that the problem is determining exactly which light gray was used. Well, photographic evidence is inherently unreliable but some AVG colour photographs show a colour very similar in appearance to 71-021. And contemporaneous British eyewitnesses taking notes on aircraft colour schemes and describing Tomahawk fighters do not record light gray but instead duck egg green or Sky under surface colours. In service the Sky paint surface chalked towards a light grey appearance as evidenced in practical experiments by the South African artist Ron Belling. So I think there is plenty of room for doubt.   

 

In the 2001 Thomas Tullis book the author states "While the RAF used a greenish-blue color called "Sky Type S" for their fighters, there wasn't any DuPont color that closely matched it. A cool gray color was used instead, and this was likely F.S. 16473 Aircraft Gray"

 

That is simply wrong on several counts.

 

1. He doesn't mention 71-021 which Dana Bell had already described in his earlier 1995 FSM article as "RAF Sky (and Du Pont 71-021)" suggesting the same hobby paints for both and also stating (for the P-40E) "These aircraft had "71-021 Sky Type S-Grey applied to the undersurfaces, a close match for RAF Sky" (no argument there) 

2. 71-021 is not a "cool gray color". It is a Munsell Green-Yellow (GY), like RAF Sky.

3. The USA was not using FS 595 as a paint colour standard in WW2. Although 16473 derived from the earlier ANA 512 Aircraft Gray that was a gloss paint colour promulgated in December 1943 which in turn derived from a pre-war gloss paint colour Aircraft Gray. It is not clear why that should have been selected to match a requirement for RAF Sky - or duck egg blue. It doesn't even match RAF Sky Grey.

 

At the end of the day the data informs choice - it is not mandatory. 

 

Nick  

 

[FloydWerner]

OK so if I have this correct, remember this is all new to me, the TLS is ala AVG.  This was overpainted on the Dark Green with Middlestone.  The Belly would be 71-021 which would approximate FS36440 or Flat Gull Grey.  Is this what I've pulled out from all of the posts which had my head swirling.  

 

As an uninformed modeler I could have sworn all P-40s were DE/MS/Azure.  LOL  This whole TLS in the desert and overpainting is new and great information to me.  I've started reading a book I picked up in Australia, "Desert Warriors" and it is quite clear that the TLS was used in the desert.  A decent read too. 

 

Since this model is for a British magazine I'd like it to pass muster.  I thought that the interior colors were a pain in the bottom.  LOL  Americans and British two great people kept apart by a common language.  LOL

 

If I'm wrong set me straight.  I must seriously do some more research on the DAF.  I got the Luftwaffe thing down, I think.  Time to learn some more information.

Floyd

[Dave Fleming]

12 minutes ago, FloydWerner said:

OK so if I have this correct, remember this is all new to me, the TLS is ala AVG.  This was overpainted on the Dark Green with Middlestone.  The Belly would be 71-021 which would approximate FS36440 or Flat Gull Grey.  Is this what I've pulled out from all of the posts which had my head swirling.  

 

As an uninformed modeler I could have sworn all P-40s were DE/MS/Azure.  LOL  This whole TLS in the desert and overpainting is new and great information to me.  I've started reading a book I picked up in Australia, "Desert Warriors" and it is quite clear that the TLS was used in the desert.  A decent read too. 

 

Since this model is for a British magazine I'd like it to pass muster.  I thought that the interior colors were a pain in the bottom.  LOL  Americans and British two great people kept apart by a common language.  LOL

 

If I'm wrong set me straight.  I must seriously do some more research on the DAF.  I got the Luftwaffe thing down, I think.  Time to learn some more information.

Floyd

 

No, 72-021 is pretty close to Sky in real life, just appears gray in some photos

[Greenshirt]

 

TLS = Temperate Land Scheme. Standard RAF camouflage scheme for U.K. based aircraft, and for some areas around the globe. TLS is Dark Green, Dark Earth uppersurfaces, Sky undersurfacs (also could be Night undersurfaces for bombers and some aircraft depending on mission). 

 

AVG = American Volunteer Group. An aviation Group established in China by Col Claire Chennault on Gen. Chang Kai Shek's orders. Consisted of US volunteers from USAAC, Navy and Marines. One aircraft they operated in the fighter squadrons was the P-40B/C (ex British Tomahawks), about 100 IIRC being redirected in an agreement between Churchill and FDR (or is that apocryphal?)

 

Curtiss Tomahawk fighters ordered by British Purchasing Commission were contracted to be delivered in TLS with Sky undersides. The BPC understood local paints would be used and authorized Curtiss to use colors that were very close matches to standard RAF colors. These are usually referred to as equivalent colors on the boards here. At one point I had an ecopy of the letter authorizing the DuPont paints (I believe it was Nick Millman who posted it) but I can't find it (PC OS rebuild recently...). 

 

My notes, right or wrong, are based on following the many discussions here on BM and say that DuPont's 71-013 Dark Green is slightly bluer than MAP Dark Green. My notes also show the difference is slight. 

 

My notes show that DuPont's 71-065 Dark Earth is redder than MAP Dark Earth, but both fade to similar shades quickly. 

 

My notes show that dupont's 71-021 Sky Type S Grey is near identical to MAP Sky Type S. this is what I take from Nick's posts above, and it is NOT anything close to Federal Standard (FS) 36440. Sky is a very pale bluish green (or greenish blue) whereas 36440 Light Gull Gray is a light gray with a hint of brown (I've painted that color on real USN aircraft).  As Others have noted, there is contention regarding 71-021 based on interpretation of color photos (which I won't do) where some believe it to be a pale bluish gray instead of a pale bluish green. 

 

As I understand it, all U.K. Tomahawks were repainted from the as delivered TLS to the Day Fighter Scheme, whereas many of those sent to the desert Tomahawks were repainted into the Desert Scheme, certainly if they remained in theater long enough to need either an overhaul or major work at the depot. 

 

For the interior, since these were contracted, I'd go for my favorite shade of RAF Grey Green for the interior, or a slight variation. Could also go with the USAAC interior colors for some components, for interest. 

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hi Floyd, if this is any use.....

The latter link shows the difference in finished colours to a Standard RAF scheme

 

HTH

 

jonners

[KRK4m]

Jonners - gorgeous Tomahawk and the colour comparison you did with this Polish-manned Hurricane.

Nevertheless although the DuPont earth looks more reddish than MAP one and the MAP Sky is less greyish than DuPont one the DuPont green looks more yellowish on these pictures than MAP one Maybe my eyeball 1.0 sensors are wrong, but all experts above (including Dana Bell, Graham Boak, Dave Fleming and Nick Millman) do state, that it was opposite - DuPont equivalent should be more bluish than MAP original hue.

Cheers

Michael

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

The colour data I got from Nick who measured 71-021 and Spec 3-1 No.323 Sky gave a colour similar to MAP Sky but fairly washed out looking by comparison. The nearest FS595 reference was FS35622 but the FS colour is too bright and vivid compared to the US equivalent Sky.

 

 

The darker grey in the corner is Fleet Air Arm Sky Grey.

[Dimmy]

On 22.01.2017 at 3:17 PM, SovereignHobbies said:

The darker grey in the corner is Fleet Air Arm Sky Grey.

 

Just wondering - is it the same as MAP Sky Grey?

Edited January 26, 2017 by Dimmy

[Bell209]

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 1:14 PM, LDSModeller said:

I 'm guessing you may have read through this?

RAF Camouflage colours

I hadn't but it's in my Favourites now!

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

9 minutes ago, Dimmy said:

 

Just wondering - is it the same as MAP Sky Grey?

 

Hi Dimmy, yes MAP Sky Grey is the one I mean. Here's it against the MAP colour chips

 

As you can see and as mentioned by others above, how the word "Gray" made its way in to the US equivalent Sky colours is a mystery that's not explained by it accidently being matched to MAP Sky Grey instead of MAP Sky Type S by the Americans.

[Dimmy]

27 minutes ago, SovereignHobbies said:

Hi Dimmy, yes MAP Sky Grey is the one I mean.

 

Thank you very much, for a moment I thought I may miss something new  

These chips looks similar to my copy of "British Aviation Colours Vol.3" 

 

Quote

As you can see and as mentioned by others above, how the word "Gray" made its way in to the US equivalent Sky colours is a mystery that's not explained by it accidently being matched to MAP Sky Grey instead of MAP Sky Type S by the Americans.

 

Sure! Just few months ago I was told what AVG planes had grey bellies just "because it all was too complex for very first Curtiss export batches". IMHO, Sky shade colour has slightly more facts on its side  

[Nick Millman]

1 hour ago, SovereignHobbies said:

 

As you can see and as mentioned by others above, how the word "Gray" made its way in to the US equivalent Sky colours is a mystery that's not explained by it accidently being matched to MAP Sky Grey instead of MAP Sky Type S by the Americans.

 

I should think that it was probably due to 'Sky' as a colour term being so ambiguous. 

 

Nick

[Nick Millman]

49 minutes ago, Dimmy said:

 

Sure! Just few months ago I was told what AVG planes had grey bellies just "because it all was too complex for very first Curtiss export batches". IMHO, Sky shade colour has slightly more facts on its side  

 

So far I have not seen any facts on the side of the "sky gray" assertions! This does not mean that I would not welcome them or that they do not exist. 

 

Nick