Early SOE Whitleys

[klunker]

Love the early SOE Flight 419 Whitleys. Any info or discussion on paint schemes and code lettering for P5029, Z6473, T4264, or T4165 and T4166 (both from Operation Colossus) would be greatly appreciated. Given the diversity in Whitley paint schemes, information as to how these aircraft were painted on arrival at Flight 419  is hard to find.  The only concrete info I have is that early Flight 419 Whitleys had no code letters. That would pre suppose that previous squadron letters were painted out. I'm also assuming they would come with the existing paint schemes from their prior squadrons. So I am trying to backtrack by figuring out which squadrons they came from and then trying to source model diagrams and paint schemes for those prior squadrons. For example 4165 and 4166 came from 78 Squadron so perhaps they kept the 78 Squadron paint schemes and had the letters painted out? My assumptions may be incorrect so feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by klunker

[rossm]

From Flying units of the RAF (Alan Lake)

 

419 (Special Duties) Flight formed 21st Aug 1940 at North Weald, disbanded to become 1419 Flight 1st March 1941 at Stradishall. Noted aircraft Lysander III R9027 and Whitley V P5025. No code letters noted.

 

From the Air Britain Whitley File

 

P5025 from a batch delivered between 3/5/40 and 10/6/40 went straight to 419 Flt

P5029 from a batch delivered between 3/5/40 and 10/6/40 went straight to 419 Flt

 

I'm going to guess these two were in the standard mid 1940 Bomber Command scheme of DG/DE/Night with low demarcation and A1 fuselage roundels with fin flash when delivered but may have been doctored by the unit after delivery.

 

Z6473 from a batch delivered between 24/12/40 and 8/2/41 went to the A&AEE then 419 Flt

 

T4166 went from 78 Sqdn to 419 Flight but T4165 went from 78 Sqdn to 1419 Flight.

 

Edit - no codes listed in Vic Flintham's Combat Codes for either 419 or 1419 Flights.

Edited January 18, 2017 by rossm

[mhaselden]

Rossm,

 

Thanks for the details.  Great info.  If Z6473 went straight to 419 Flt from A&AEE, then it's highly unlikely that it ever wore codes before starting SD ops. 

 

Apparently, this pic shows the cockpit section of Z6473 while under construction which agrees with your assessment re camouflage:

 

 

Source:  http://ww2bombers.e-monsite.com/pages/armstrong-whitworth-whitley.html

 

Cheers,
Mark

[The wooksta V2.0]

Thread bump as it's tangential to someting I'm considering.

 

Has anyone any info on the Whitleys used to drop the SAS guys for Operation Loyton in late '44?

[klunker]

Rossm  - Thanks for the interesting information and for taking the time to look into it. Much appreciated.

 

I have cross referenced with Freddie Clark "Agents by Moonlight" and Nick Livingstone's "Before Tempsford". P5025 was written off almost immediately on arrival in a non operational landing crash. P5029 into Flight 419 service later damaged on landing and stranded for a considerable time at Sumburgh. Z6473 was delivered Feb. 10 1940 equipped for a long distance operation to Poland. Following that operation T4264 is lost the next night over Belgium leaving the Flight with one serviceable aircraft. Since the Flight no longer has any aircraft suitable for a string of parachute jumpers, T4166 and T4165 are brought in as replacements from 78 Squadron since they were already equipped during COLOSSUS for that purpose. It seems pretty clear to me at this point that code letters were not being used. I would assume that T4166 and T4165 would therefore have had their code letters painted out. Didn't 78 Squadron have their aircraft painted all black in 1940? 

 

mhaselden - thank you for the excellent link and the photo which, in conjunction with Rossm's data on Z4673,  confirms the paint scheme for that aircraft. Other data I have acquired is that the rear door was modified to open inward (and possibly backwards?) because the extra fuel tanks that were installed in the fuselage negated the use of a "jump hole". It is not clear if this aircraft had a jump hole at all or if an existing one was covered by the internally mounted fuselage fuel tanks. Any data on that would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Again my thanks to you both.

Edited January 23, 2017 by klunker