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Navy Bird

Tornado F.2 ZA254 - F.3 Differences?

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Navy Bird    8,807

Hi mates,

 

I recently acquired the beautiful 1:72 Combat Decals sheet(s) CD72-005 for use with a Harrier project, and it also includes markings for Tornado F.2 ZA254 at Boscombe Down in the "early 1980s." I rather like that scheme, it's quite smart.

 

So I wondered if I could use it with my 1:72 Italeri Tornado F.3 kit. I'm afraid I know little about the differences between the F.2 and F.3, but I know they both have long pointy noses!   :) 

 

What do you guys think? Are they any gotchas in trying to pass this kit off as an F.2?

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

PS. By the way, the Harrier section of this decal set includes tiny numbers 1-26 to put on the fan blades. In 1:72 scale. Really - would I kid you? 

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Procopius    16,795

The most obvious difference to me is that the F.2 has only one Sidewinder mounting on each shoulder station, versus the two for the F.3. I believe the prototype ADV was also somewhat shorter, but don't speak with certitude.

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modelglue    1,082

I've done a little bit of Tornado research since and very nice person (^ That guy) sent me a Hasegawa kit for postage. The F3 had different engines but you probably wouldn't see any change in a model of that scale. As Edward has mentioned, the additional "Sidewinder" rails are a big indicator.

 

I will be interested to see if anyone with hands on experience can shed more light however. 

 

I read somewhere that you are trying to reduce your stash @Navy Bird, otherwise I would direct you to return the Italeri kit to your stash, and then onto eBay to find a Hasegawa version. I built it as a kid who didn't care much, and I hated it then.

 

Cheers!

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Wez    1,939

The rear fuselage of the F.2 is pretty much the same as a GR.1 rear fuselage and is noticeably shorter than the F.3 - you can see the extra length behind the fin so I have to disagree with @modelglue it's the very thing I would look for in any model claiming to be an F.2 and to me it would be noticeable in 1/72nd.

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stever219    827

Expanding slightly on Wez's post the extra length, 14 inches, in the F. 3 is behind the taileron pivots and was built in to accommodate the extra length of the RB199 Mk. 104 reheat sections.  On the full-size jet there is a noticeable reduction in the taper of the rear fuselage at that point when compared to the GR. 1/4 rear fuselage.  As a result of the fuselage extension to accommodate the longer reheat sections the fairing below the rudder in the F. 3 is also different to the preceding variants.  The shape of the fairing went through a number of changes during development flying until the final form was arrived at.

 

i'm not sure whether ZA254 had a forward-facing camera on the fin; I think she did, and it was located where the forward RWR fairing is on the mud movers.  It's not huge, but it is longer and angled slightly downwards.  Usual rules: check photos and don't forget ZA254's appearance changed from time to time during her life.

 

Please post some photos of your work: '254 was one of the first aircraft I encountered at my first Fanborough show in 1980 and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for her.  Sadly no-one at the Misery of Disarmament considered this significant airframe worthy of preservation.

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Navy Bird    8,807

Thanks! Great information.

 

10 hours ago, Wez said:

The rear fuselage of the F.2 is pretty much the same as a GR.1 rear fuselage and is noticeably shorter than the F.3 - you can see the extra length behind the fin so I have to disagree with @modelglue it's the very thing I would look for in any model claiming to be an F.2 and to me it would be noticeable in 1/72nd.

 

8 hours ago, stever219 said:

Expanding slightly on Wez's post the extra length, 14 inches, in the F. 3 is behind the taileron pivots and was built in to accommodate the extra length of the RB199 Mk. 104 reheat sections.  On the full-size jet there is a noticeable reduction in the taper of the rear fuselage at that point when compared to the GR. 1/4 rear fuselage.  As a result of the fuselage extension to accommodate the longer reheat sections the fairing below the rudder in the F. 3 is also different to the preceding variants.  The shape of the fairing went through a number of changes during development flying until the final form was arrived at.

 

i'm not sure whether ZA254 had a forward-facing camera on the fin; I think she did, and it was located where the forward RWR fairing is on the mud movers.  It's not huge, but it is longer and angled slightly downwards.  Usual rules: check photos and don't forget ZA254's appearance changed from time to time during her life.

 

Please post some photos of your work: '254 was one of the first aircraft I encountered at my first Fanborough show in 1980 and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for her.  Sadly no-one at the Misery of Disarmament considered this significant airframe worthy of preservation.

 

Would it make more sense then to start with a GR.1 kit (I have the Revell kit in my stash) and graft on the nose section from the Italeri kit? Hmm. I wonder if anyone has tried such a thing. On Scalemates there is a listing for a "detail and conversion set" for the F.2 made by C Scale, but there is no other information about it. Hannants doesn't seem to stock anything from C Scale. Anyone ever heard of these guys?

 

Methinks I have to put that "paralysis by analysis" hat back on and start gathering photos, drawings, etc. I was hoping that the differences would be mostly internal, but 14 inches in 1:72 scale is nearly 5 mm. Very noticeable as everyone has pointed out. 

 

11 hours ago, modelglue said:

I've done a little bit of Tornado research since and very nice person (^ That guy) sent me a Hasegawa kit for postage. The F3 had different engines but you probably wouldn't see any change in a model of that scale. As Edward has mentioned, the additional "Sidewinder" rails are a big indicator.

 

I will be interested to see if anyone with hands on experience can shed more light however. 

 

I read somewhere that you are trying to reduce your stash @Navy Bird, otherwise I would direct you to return the Italeri kit to your stash, and then onto eBay to find a Hasegawa version. I built it as a kid who didn't care much, and I hated it then.

 

Cheers!

 

I have the Hasegawa F.3 in my collection, only it's already built (back in 1990 - wow, it's 27 years old!).

 

IMG_1001.jpg

 

I suppose I could strip it down and repaint it...nah. Best to start with fresh styrene. I can certainly see the difference between the back end of this model compared to the GR.1. 

 

Cheers,

Bill

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upnorth    777
4 minutes ago, Navy Bird said:

 

 

Would it make more sense then to start with a GR.1 kit (I have the Revell kit in my stash) and graft on the nose section from the Italeri kit? Hmm. I wonder if anyone has tried such a thing. On Scalemates there is a listing for a "detail and conversion set" for the F.2 made by C Scale, but there is no other information about it. Hannants doesn't seem to stock anything from C Scale. Anyone ever heard of these guys?

 

Methinks I have to put that "paralysis by analysis" hat back on and start gathering photos, drawings, etc. I was hoping that the differences would be mostly internal, but 14 inches in 1:72 scale is nearly 5 mm. Very noticeable as everyone has pointed out. 

 

 

 

 

C Scale is a long gone aftermarket outfit and I think you'd have a lot of difficulty finding any of their stuff.

 

If you try to splice an F.3 together with a Gr.1, don't just use the forward fuselage of the F.3. Use the whole underside until just aft of the Skyflash missile recesses and it will cut down a ton of work there. The forward fuselage extension was made to accommodate those recesses and the later rear fuselage extension didn't affect them or the position of such things like the main landing gear well placement. I think the landing gear and wells were common across the Tornado variants, so the placement of those things in the underside of an F.3 Should work fine for a model of the F.2.

 

You will need to keep the wing gloves of the F.3 as the changed leading edge angle between them and those of the Gr variants was also present on the F.2.

 

It's less a matter of getting the front end of an F.3 onto a Gr.1 and more a matter of getting the back end of a Gr.1 onto an F.3, if that makes any sense.

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Scimitar    2,376

The C scale conversion if I remember correctly gave a new resin nosecone and a resin fuselage plug for just behind the cockpit. The wing gloves were in white metal.

No idea if there was anything else.

I came across the fuselage plug and wing gloves in my box of bits the other day but the radome is long gone.

Richard

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stever219    827

Upnorth's plot is pretty much spot on.  The ADV Tornado features a two-foot-odd extension in the centre fuselage to provide the additional length for the Sparrow/Skyflash installation on the belly and additional fuel capacity.  This caught the Airfix designers of the day out when they produced their 1/48th scale F. 3: they put the rear of the F. 3 cockpit in the same place relative to the intakes as it is on the GR. 1, thereby making the rear cockpit that much too long.

 

Whichever F. 3 kit you start with it might simply be easiest to screw your courage to the sticking place and carefully cut out just over 1/6th of an inch just behind the taileron pivots (there's a small fairing around these just behind which it might be a good place to make the forward cut).  You may be able to modify the fin lower trailing edge fairing or "acquire" a spare GR. 1 fin through the good offices of one member or another of this forum (sadly I don't have one going spare at present otherwise it'd be on its way to you).

 

Looking at the decal sheet artwork and a few photos on t'interweb the lower trailing edge fairing is a relatively simple shape to make up from thin plasticard which can then be faired into the rear of the dorsal spine with a dob of filler so, hopefully, no need to rob a perfectly good GR. 1 of its trademark, unless you're planning to use it for an RTP diorama project.

Edited by stever219
More blethering.

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canberra kid    3,548

Bill some ZA254 photos.

It looks like 254 didn't have a fin mounted camera

53%20T%20F2%20AOO1%20ZA254_zpsbruqimaw.j

 

oh, it appears she did

42%20T%20F2%20PT%20A01%20ZA254_zpsuku42l

Then a diferant one 

52%20T%20F2%20A01%20ZA254_zpsrgfuovum.jp

 

And the difference in the F.2

R86_zpsbe8uhjuu.jpg

A114_zpsjjbtpfn3.jpg

 

John

 

 

Edited by canberra kid
finger trouble

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modelglue    1,082
6 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I have the Hasegawa F.3 in my collection, only it's already built (back in 1990 - wow, it's 27 years old!).

 

Wow, nice job on that one. 

 

Looks like the experts have stepped in with superior information, that info-graphic really helps and I'm sure helped alleviate a lot of head scratching. Seeing the difference in the fin certainly trumps previous indicators and I am happy to see it for myself. But I don't see it on any images I bring up on Google. Looks like the engines 'poke out' more on the F.3 but I'm not sure how you would remedy that to get an F.2?

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tempestfan    340

Looking at the lower diagram and the pics of 254, it seems the diagram is based on an IDS/GR proto configuration,  with the pronounced "sickle" cut out of the under-rudder fairing, and the small tailerons with no kink. The upper diagram in contrast looks like full 3, at least with respect to the engine position. 

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canberra kid    3,548
9 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Looking at the lower diagram and the pics of 254, it seems the diagram is based on an IDS/GR proto configuration,  with the pronounced "sickle" cut out of the under-rudder fairing, and the small tailerons with no kink. The upper diagram in contrast looks like full 3, at least with respect to the engine position. 

I don't think the diagrams are meant to be scale plans, but more a sketch of the diferant components. The top one is the F.3.

 

John 

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Navy Bird    8,807
On 1/10/2017 at 2:38 PM, canberra kid said:

Bill some ZA254 photos.

It looks like 254 didn't have a fin mounted camera

<snip>

oh, it appears she did

<snip>

Then a diferant one 

<snip>

And the difference in the F.2

 

John

 

Wow, great stuff John! It looks like no matter which path I choose, I will be taking a saw to the fuselage. Maybe it's best that I use the Italeri kit as the guinea pig, rather than risk mucking up an expensive Hasegawa kit!   :)

 

So many projects, so little time...

 

Cheers,

Bill

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Dave Fleming    1,349

I've pondered the best way to make an F2 (and a decent F3!) - I'm not too fond of the Hasegawa F3, some of it's shapes are off and it has a distinct lack of detail, especially compared to the Revell GR1, but it does have a better representation of the F3 nose - the transition from the GR1 fuselage shape to the sleeker F3 nose is still a bit too smooth, but at least shows that it's not a smooth line (The F3 nose has a distinct change in profile when viewed from some angles, it really is just stuck on the front).

 

If money and time was no object, the Hasegawa kit, Flightpath detail set and the rear fuselage/fin from a Hasegawa GR1 would be one option for F2. Being the same origin, the parts SHOULD match

 

I'd use an Italeri GR1 with the Italeri F3 for the same reason, and maybe scrounge some parts from the Revell kit if I could.

 

I have considered using Italeri F3 parts on a Revell Gr1 kit (Nose, wing gloves) to make an F2

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Jacarre    20

Hi all, for an F.3 is the old Airfix 1/72 kit accurate? Or unusable? Better the Italeri one?

 

Regards.,

Javier

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DougC    63
On 10 January 2017 at 3:23 AM, Navy Bird said:

 

I recently acquired the beautiful 1:72 Combat Decals sheet(s) CD72-005 for use with a Harrier project, and it also includes markings for Tornado F.2 ZA254 at Boscombe Down in the "early 1980s." I rather like that scheme, it's quite smart.

 

Wot they all said ^

 

I spent quite a while fiddling around with the front end of a Hasegawa F3 & the rear end (& wings) of a Revell GR1 to see if I could come up with a passable (albeit expensive!) F2 in 1/72 scale. The answer is..... You can but why would you want to when the simple solution is to reverse engineer the F3 by hacking out the extra section of rear fuselage for the extended reheat zone of the Mk104s & fettling the lower rudder fillet..... Thanks stever219!

 

Of course the real question is "where can one buy a set of Combat Decals"? Ta muchly.

 

Anyhoo, get cracking & post some photos of your build 😀

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Dave Fleming    1,349
12 hours ago, Jacarre said:

Hi all, for an F.3 is the old Airfix 1/72 kit accurate? Or unusable? Better the Italeri one?

 

Regards.,

Javier

 

Been a long time since I looked at one,as I recall it has outline accuracy but is pretty crude (Based on the GR1, which was based on the original 70s MRCA kit). Don't think the nose shape is correct, not catching the change in section as it transitions correctly.

 

We need a new F3!!

Edited by Dave Fleming

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Navy Bird    8,807
13 hours ago, DougC said:

Of course the real question is "where can one buy a set of Combat Decals"? Ta muchly.

 

Anyhoo, get cracking & post some photos of your build 😀

 

I bought the sticker sheet from Hannants:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/COM72005

 

I suspect this project will happen sometime in 2017. I have the Sea Harrier to finish, then the F-111B for the group build, then a tarted up TSR.2, and then most likely the Tornado. Of course, there is always a chance that a Spitfire or two will interrupt this schedule. Or the Aki Sea Fury...or the CMR Firebrand...or the Trumpeter Wyvern...or some two seat Harriers...or the new Barracuda...maybe even a two seat Spitfire...or the Curtiss XF15...how about a Moonbat? It just goes on and on.   :)

 

Thanks guys, you've all been much help. I now have a pretty good idea of how to approach this one. If any other information comes to mind, please feel free to post it. I'd love to have a nice set of "reasonably" accurate F.2 scale drawings - any sources for that? John mentioned that the one he posted was not intended to be a scale drawing, but I can always use it as such in a pinch. 

 

Cheers,

Bill

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Hook    370
15 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

I'd love to have a nice set of "reasonably" accurate F.2 scale drawings - any sources for that?

 

"RAF Tornado" by Paul Jackson (Ian Allan, UK, 1987, ISBN 10: 0711016569 / ISBN 13: 9780711016569) has a set.

 

HTH,

 

Andre

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tempestfan    340

In the "possibly " category, the book by Frank Mason  (Ian Allan ) has "proper" drawings by the man himself, at least of the IDS /1 - too far away from my library to check,  but it also *may* have F drawings, and if it does, chances Are they are for a 2 as the book came out relatively early. Should be available cheaply via Abe, and a good read anyway. 

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tempestfan    340

For once I guessed right - the Mason book has F.2 drawings, fairly small, but well detailed. Labelled as Batch 4 early,  so there may some differences to 254, but probably in details only. 

 

BTW, also had a look in the AI Special by Paul Jackson, Mike Keep's drawings are of a 3, unless there is an earlier version that had the 2 featured. 

Edited by tempestfan
added AI Special info

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Blacktjet    97

If it's just the scheme you like, protoype A.02 ZA267 carried the same scheme for a short time after being converted to the F.3 development airframe - albeit with a few modifications and a dark grey (MSG?) radome.

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