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Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)


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On 12.1.2017 at 1:25 PM, Roy vd M. said:

 

Quote

I am pretty sure the motors were not actually polished, only smoothened to a blanc and pretty even surface. 

 

By 'polished' do you mean engine turned? If so, do you think Photo the picture of my previous post was made after the race season? If so, why would they have taken the trouble to apply the effect at that point in time? Perhaps it isn't logical to spend so much time and energy on engine turning on a race car -before the first race-, but I'd say that it would be even less logical to do so afterwards.

 

I never said it was done later. I only described the techniques that would have been used most likely. Jewellig is actually a form of polishing: A pattern of minimal scratches is introduced into a surface of higher quality. So if you say the parts are jewelled they would have to be polished to a shine before. Now think oft the tools available at the time and the way they were operated. Motorized handtools? I don't think so. Lapping machines? Unlikely. Polished by hand only to introduce the pattern after that? Never-ever.

As I said the parts were most likely cast. And for some reason a clean surface was required. How would this be achieved? Scraping is a technique as old as metalworking, much like working with a plane on wood. But it is very time consuming and leads to a very different surface than seen here. If I had the possibilities back in the days I would most likely try to use a machine for the task. My guess would be there was only a drilling machine or maybe a simple 3-axis milling machine available and it was decided to utilize it. So you have a rotating axis that only moves up and down, maybe even back and forth and left and right. But no way to work around a curved surface. Put a tool in it - some abrasive material or a mill or a wire brush, take two men to position the part and operate the machine. Work your way all over the surface, dot by dot. Inverse the direction between dots. There you have your jewelling pattern. But in fact the surface still isn't really shiny. It is smooth and blank, but still not polished.

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That is very interesting @Schwarz-Brot. For me having these discussions with knowledgable men is always a treat. From when I was a kid I have admired this kind of craftsmanship and the people who have knowledge about it and/or who can actually do it. I can tell you I'm very happy to have you participate in this thread, enlarging my (and others who are interested) knowledge of these vintage methods, cars and solutions.

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Congratulations Roy, for this new thread !

Considering the implication you put in this (not surprising coming from you), I understand that you can't now leave this to come back on the 806 one... Pity for us, but I know you will try to follow us ...

Good luck, and happy to see my photos at Rev's have been useful for you.

All the best

Olivier

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Scratching the cam covers: a possible fifth method

To the five possible techniques for making the cam covers:

 

1) Aluminium brazing;

2) White metal casting (Schwarz-Brot);

3) Nickel silver soldering (Harvey);

4) Resin lamination by silver leaf sheet (Codger);

 

a possible fifth one is added, suggested by a friend of mine:

 

5) Brass scratching, silver soldering, engine turning, then nickel plating.

 

Very interesting thinking out of the box again... Gerald Wingrove says in his great book The Complete Car Modeller 1 that the quality of the plated surface will be as high as the polished surface beneath it... thinking a contrario, would the swirls still be seen after nickelplating? Probably so... it's worth the try I think. I'm curious to know what you think of this possible solution (and also, if the silver solder will also be affected by the nickelplating...). 

 

About this thread

Thank you @Olivier de St Raph and welcome to the thread. Yes I can get pretty much involved in a project, as you already know. I want to know as much of the Delage as I can, before I will visit Retromobile Paris in February. That way I can make clear, for myself, what questions I will still have at that point and what issues are most important (and what photographs to take... that's going to be the tail of the car I think, mainly... it is really surprising how few photographs are ever taken of a car's tail, except when it is extraordinarily beautiful such as with the Mercedes-Benz 540K). Right now I'm looking for blueprints, blueprints, blueprints. Through the communication of Olivier I received (parts of) engine blueprints today from the very knowledgable Mr Sebastien de Faurès who also wrote a book on Fiat racing cars. The document I received today is a 20 pages booklet about Albert Lory, the car's designer. Excellent stuff and very helpful for scratching purposes.   

 

Those who only read the new replies to a thread may have missed that the opening post was updated every day since opening this thread. Every day more photos were added and more information about history and characteristics as well. Maybe it is a good idea for me to give a status overview once in awhile. 

 

Current status:

 

- 16 webpages were processed;

- 15 videos and 11 drawings were linked;

- 178 photos links were added (click on them to show them);

- Technical description (translation from a French text) was completed;

- History and car specifications (except measures) are now more or less complete (although I'll keep making references to the articles I will process).

 

I have tried to make references to all 16 websites all the time, so there are many footnotes in the text. Looking back I'm glad I did this consistently, because now it's possible to educatedly guess what author based its info upon what other author. 

Edited by Roy vd M.
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I like your systematic approach to research and how you stick to it. This is a lot of work but so much help for you but also everybody else who ever might want to have a go at this car. Nice touch you credit the people who contribute, even if they are not around here.

 

Quote

Gerald Wingrove says in his great book The Complete Car Modeller 1 that the quality of the plated surface will be as high as the polished surface beneath it... thinking a contrario, would the swirls still be seen after nickelplating? Probably so... it's worth the try I think. I'm curious to know what you think of this possible solution (and also, if the silver solder will also be affected by the nickelplating...). 

 

If you refer to a electroplating process when talking about nickelplating: It most likely works on any metal surface. If the surfaces are isolated from each other you may have to contact them individually to allow the current to flow. You may end up with a non uniform finish if you use different metals. This may or may not be solved by longer plating times. I have no experience with nickelplating, so this is just thinking about the process and possible problems. You'll have to read up yourself or find someone who knows, sorry.

For the quality of the surface: The swirls will be seen for sure. Electroplating leaves ultra thin surfaces which show every mark, no matter how small it is. To be honest, it may happen the surface looks worth than you thought because of the uniform and possibly shiny coating every inaccuracy sticks out even more.

Edited by Schwarz-Brot
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@Roy vd M. and @Schwarz-Brot I began since several weeks using nickel electroplatting. It doesn't work on aluminium....the swirls of an engine-turning will be still visible after nickel-platting....but I think this platting could be too shinny for the appearance we want to get.....

 

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54 minutes ago, CrazyCrank said:

@Roy vd M. and @Schwarz-Brot I began since several weeks using nickel electroplatting. It doesn't work on aluminium....the swirls of an engine-turning will be still visible after nickel-platting....but I think this platting could be too shinny for the appearance we want to get.....

 

 

Good point!

 

Well, aluminium is hard to plate because the surface usually isn't conductive. It corrodes immediately (in a positive way - the corroded surface protects the underlying material). Aluminium therefore usually is eloxadized / anodized as plating is not necessary. To be able to do so it is prepared with acids, maybe even placed in acid during the process, don't remember completely. Very high currents are necessary to get a strong finish. I guess by incorporating an acid into the process plating would be possible as well. But probably not worth the work and dangers as there's enough alternative materials around.

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On 9/01/2017 at 05:56, Roy vd M. said:

 

@vontrips

 

 

My question

So what do you think? Should I try the aluminium or the zinc idea? Have I overlooked other options (other than using 'swirl decals' or painting them on or so... the latter is no option for me as it wouldn't look like the real thing... the decals would be only a 'last resort' option, if nothing else would work). I hope you metal workers and other smart people have some advice for me.

 

Don't discount sterling silver. For the quantity you need it won't be too expensive, and it anneals, works and solders well.

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21 hours ago, Schwarz-Brot said:

I like your systematic approach to research and how you stick to it. This is a lot of work but so much help for you but also everybody else who ever might want to have a go at this car. Nice touch you credit the people who contribute, even if they are not around here.

 

Thanks. Crediting the people who may never read this not only does justice to the facts (I base all of this on their work, knowledge etc.) but it is also clarifies what what info I got from where. If I (or anyone else) wants to check discrepancies or so, they can simply follow the link. Looking back i'm already very glad I did it like this, because there are small differences in data. For example, was the track gauge of the Delage 1.300mm. or 1.345mm. or 53 in. or 51 in. or 4 feet + 5 in.? The respective sources making these claims are named in the article. 

 

21 hours ago, Schwarz-Brot said:

If you refer to a electroplating process when talking about nickelplating: It most likely works on any metal surface. If the surfaces are isolated from each other you may have to contact them individually to allow the current to flow. You may end up with a non uniform finish if you use different metals. This may or may not be solved by longer plating times. I have no experience with nickelplating, so this is just thinking about the process and possible problems. You'll have to read up yourself or find someone who knows, sorry.

For the quality of the surface: The swirls will be seen for sure. Electroplating leaves ultra thin surfaces which show every mark, no matter how small it is. To be honest, it may happen the surface looks worth than you thought because of the uniform and possibly shiny coating every inaccuracy sticks out even more.

 

19 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

@Roy vd M. and @Schwarz-Brot I began since several weeks using nickel electroplatting. It doesn't work on aluminium....the swirls of an engine-turning will be still visible after nickel-platting....but I think this platting could be too shinny for the appearance we want to get.....

 

 

Yes I meant the electroplating process. I will further check / research this. @CrazyCrank you haven't been able to write the tutorial, right? (no rush, I know you have other priorities right now..)  Is it a difficult process? Gerald Wingrove mentions in his book that this was about the only thing he handed to a third party 'electroplater' but maybe technology has advanced / made things easier. Your handbrake and other electroplated stuff looks awesome. 

 

@Schwarz-Brot good to know that the swirls will be seen!

 

Thierry I think you are aware, but just to be sure... the electroplating would be done not on aluminium but on brass. 

 

9 hours ago, Jo NZ said:

Don't discount sterling silver. For the quantity you need it won't be too expensive, and it anneals, works and solders well.

 

I checked this and indeed sterling silver (sheet) is indeed not as expensive as I would have thought. I reckon that sterling silver corrosion (the blackening) can be prevented by applying a coat of varnish? Maybe also by varnishing the 'shine and sparkle' can be diminished. For the record:

 

1) Aluminium brazing;

2) White metal casting (Schwarz-Brot);

3) Nickel silver soldering (Harvey);

4) Resin lamination by silver leaf sheet (Codger);

5) Brass scratching, silver soldering, engine turning, then nickel plating (Joeri);

6) Sterling Silver soldering (Jo NZ).

 

Thanks again for all your input and following of this project. 

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@Roy vd M.  Nickel electroplatting would be done on brass, copper, steel. But don't try to plate zinc, aluminium, stainless steel nor lead.

 

I've bought at Frost restoration webstore a Barvic Nickel plating system

 

- common plating module (it works for nickel or chrome plating): http://www.frost.co.uk/automotive-paint-coating-electroplating/automotive-electroplating/electroplating-kits/common-plating-module.html

- Brilliant nickel plating module: http://www.frost.co.uk/automotive-paint-coating-electroplating/automotive-electroplating/electroplating-kits/brilliant-nickel-plating-modules.html

 

Instructions for use:

 

Below "Products Attachments"  on the second link page.

All the secret for a nice plating is the good preparation of the parts to plate (filling, sanding, polishing, polishing again and again, then degreasing, then cleaning with special salts provided in the kit, then new cleaning), and the good tension to select on the system (depends on the amount of surface to plate)  and a great homogenity of the solution.

 

Notice that this kit is provided with british plugs, so you'll need a power adaptor to use it.

 

 

 

 

Edited by CrazyCrank
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Thank you Thierry, at the moment it is out of stock but I will certainly get me one of each set. 

 

Opening post update: another four websites were processed, 11 photos were added and the technical description + history were updated. 

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Roy, after reading @Schwarz-Brot's message about surface corrosion on alloys, I think it would be appropriate to mention to avoid any contact with wood  on models containing white metal parts. This is especially an issue with lead based alloys and tropical hardwoods, especially mahogany. The metal is corrodod by tannic acid, gassed off from the wood. I have witnessed a collection of Roman coins turned to nothing more than white dust kept in a custom made mahogany cabinet!

 

A general warning for all modellers! :)

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@vontrips That is something I had never heard of before. The willing to share these kinds of things, proactively, on a forum such as this is amazing. I'll keep this warning in mind.

 

 

Update as regards the topic: a total of 29 sources of info (till now all of them websites) have now been implemented. Another 56 photos have been included (245 in total now), mainly regarding chassis #2 and the years 1926-1927. It's been increasingly difficult for me to remember which photos have already been included. The names of the files may be subject to change after final check (I'll save all photos to my harddisk and try to check as accurately as I can whether there are any duplicates). I'll mention when that will be ready and after that those interested in the Delage may download all photos knowing that it will be a 'definite' numbering. 

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OPENING POST

The opening post was revised as regards the list of photos. Duplicates were removed (as far as I am now aware), typing errors were corrected. The 30th source of info now having been implemented, I think the basis of the opening post is now there. 

 

To save the photos, right-click on the link and then select 'copy'. The text of the link is now copied to the computer's memory. Next, click on the link. In the newly opened browser tap, right-click on the photo and choose 'save image'. In the 'saved name' subscreen, paste the copied name (ctrl-v on Windows computer, command-v on Mac). Save the file, close the tab and go on to the next one. The same goes with the drawings. 

 

With images hosted by Flickr, choose 'original format' and save them to your hard disk. Locate the map they are saved in, rename them and copy them to your Delage image map. 

 

Referenced photos and drawings from copyrighted material (PDFs, books) can only be saved to your harddisk if you have the source. In a PDF you can save a separate page for example (if you want you can crop that page), while a book page can be scanned. Unfortunately due to copyright issues I cannot post or hyperlink those images here.

 

Videos can easily be downloaded in HD by using 4K Downloader, see here. One exception is V015 which is hosted by Cinecitta Luce. 

 

MISSING LINKS

There are quite a few photos of 1927 and of the current cars in the inventory now. I'll visit Paris next month, hoping to make some good photographs of chassis #1 mainly (whereas other chassis will not be forgotten). I'm always looking for more detail photos.  

 

The most important missing info however is blueprints of the car and a side view blueprint of the engine. D015 only shows part of the side and I hope that's only a fragment of a larger blueprint. I will contact Mr Daniel Cabart and Mr Sébastien Faurès to see if there is more. Anyone who knows of any blueprint of the Delage 15-S-8 (1927), side of the engine or of the gearbox... please inform me. @harveyb258 with reference to your first post in this thread, did you find any drawings that I haven't included?

 

DRAWINGS

 

Let's see how the drawings compare to one another. Using the software Gimp I'll overlay them. 

 

First I checked the scales on Drawing 3 and Drawing 10. Wouldn't it be a great start if the scale turned out to be consistent and correct? 

 

Well they are not, unfortunately. I drew guidelines, having the same relative distance, to overlay the scales. Top: Drawing 3. Below: Drawing 10. It can be seen that the 2' indicator in Drawing 3 stands too far to the left whereas the 1' and 2' indicators in Drawing 10 stand too far to the right, if compared to the other lines.

 

32461647825_91fecf7e83_b.jpg 

 

 

Using the same scaling as above and overlaying the left side views (aligning the rear wheel) unfortunately they don't match at all, scale-wise. See the blue guidelines: the rear guideline crosses the center of the rear wheel, but the same does not apply in front. 

 

32310921232_7716d7d38e_b.jpg 

 

When matching the wheelbase, some interesting differences come clear. It's obvious both drawings are independent sources and that Jim Ison did not base his drawing on Kenneth Rush's drawing or vice versa. 

 

The biggest differences:

 

31651206143_98ea8f3d57_b.jpg 

 

In Drawing 10:

  1. The grille cover has a steeper slope.
  2. The tyres have a larger diameter.
  3. The exhaust is higher and more to the right. 
  4. The car is lower.
  5. The windscreen is more to the right and somewhat taller. 
  6. The steering wheel is more to the right.
  7. The bonnet straps are more to the right.
  8. The brake linkage is more to the left.
  9. The brake cables are lower.
  10. The louvres beneath the exhaust manifold are bigger and fewer.
  11. The louvres beneath the frame are bigger and fewer.
  12. The body lining at the seat is less sharp.
  13. The body lining at the rear top is higher.
  14. The body lining at the rear below is lower.
  15. The exhaust pipe goes up just before the rear wheel.
  16. The support for the rear leaf spring (front) is oval whereas in Drawing 3 it is triangular.
  17. The support for the rear leaf spring (aft) is more to the right. 
  18. The disks are larger.

 

32463163355_771002836b_b.jpg 

 

But all is not bad. Several body contours are much alike in both drawings; the rear end matches very well; the same applies to the chassis. 

 

 

On with a comparison between Drawings 1 and 3, again taking as a basis the wheelbase. 

 

32463409855_bb80c994af_b.jpg 

 

This first image shows that in Drawing 1 the bonnet is considerably taller than in Drawing 3. The bonnet straps are more to the left (remember, the bonnet straps in Drawing 10 were more to the right!). The tyres are approximately as large in both Drawings 1 and 3.

 

32463409555_7f4a1d77f8_b.jpg 

 

Seen in this second image the tail in Drawing 1 is taller and shorter than in Drawing 3. 

 

32463409245_78f7a2e374_b.jpg 

 

The lowest lining of the body as well as the chassis don't match. 

 

Unfortunately I think Drawing 1 would be the most accurate, although also Drawing 1 has its flaws. It would be great to have blueprints :) 

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Hi Roy.

You certainly have more than I could find, my friend! Superlative research as always!

I reckon there's enough reference to build a very convincing replica, but, as we said on the 806 thread....you can never have too much:D

 

Cheers, H

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Harvey. Still looking for blueprints though. 

 

Perhaps a good moment for an update:

 

  • Next week I will visit Retromobile and photograph the six Delages. 
  • I've made an appointment to meet Mr Daniel Cabart at Retromobile. He is the expert on Delage cars and the author of a book on the 15-S-8, to be published at Retromobile. We'll talk about availability of blueprints.
  • If Mr Cabart won't be able to help me with that, hopefully he will be able to introduce me to another Delage connoisseur who is said to hold the original blueprints. 
  • Meanwhile Revs Institute has sent me a series of great 'off-body' photos of chassis #1, taken during restoration. More pictures to come. I won't be able to share them because copyright lies with Revs but I can put anyone who is interested in contact with the responsible person (please send me a PM).
Edited by Roy vd M.
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Rétromobile 2017
Last week I was in Paris to see, study and photograph the six Delage 15-S-8 race cars, to find out (through talking with Delage-connaisseur Mr Daniel Cabart) if any blueprints of this type have survived, as well as to purchase the new book of Mr Cabart. First I will write a review of Rétromobile, next a review of the book that I read with great interest and pleasure. 

 

Upon entering the venue it became very clear to me that this was a very large exposition. How titanic it was I found only later. Here is a panoramic picture of the largest hall having, on the visible red carpet (1/3 of the surface of that hall) sellers of miniature models, original and aftermarket parts of antique cars, accessories, restorators, et cetera. Beyond, until the far end, an exhibition of thousands of vintage / classic cars. 


32556537690_effb093513_b.jpg

For example, in this hall alone I counted ten Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Gullwings. 

 

Then there were two more halls, totally amounting to approximately half the size of the hall I just described. One of both smaller (but still large) spaces was my primary target, that's where the Delages were. I spent an hour and a half there at first (later that day another half hour) and took hundreds of photos and videos. Unfortunately chassis #4 wasn't present, as it had been shipped to New Zealand for maintenance, but that wouldn't affect my excitement. For me the major tourist attractions were chassis #1 and #3. Number 1 because it's the most original survivor, with almost no amendments made during the 90 years of its existence, and number 3 because it does not (yet) have its bodywork in place. Starting with Chassis #1. 

 

The gorgeous front wheel suspension:

32783776242_b17c6342e3_b.jpg

32783882802_8c689835b2_b.jpg

The rivets were flattened, for reasons of aerodynamics and saving weight:

32094236524_bfee3448a1_b.jpg


32556901040_db51a28646_b.jpg

If at any point in the future a 'Musée des Louvres' is to be erected, this bonnet could be included in its collection right away:

32094281334_7a8cc35841_b.jpg

The car's interior has been compared to that of a submarine...

32937745125_69812127e2_b.jpg

To make it easy for future scale modelers, the designers at Delage applied a series of tapered louvres. They will have to be pressed out piece by piece with an overload of care. 

32094373454_63404cf684_b.jpg

In the morning the bonnets were in situ (I was kindly requested to not lift them myself :) )...

32557058930_eec0a42309_b.jpg

In the afternoon I saw the car like this:

32937852225_f71b610a38_b.jpg

32784120592_f69fcb5c40_b.jpg

The engine is exactly 10 centimeters off-center:

32557161560_aa6edcb4c3_b.jpg

Then the state of chassis #3 (during the build more pictures will be shown) :

32094603924_4ff93aa83f_b.jpg

32813727131_6de5bec2c4_b.jpg

32123293803_48d8cdb858_b.jpg

In my view the most beautiful car of the exhibition was this one-off Delahaye with bodywork made by Figoni:

32938589575_11897087d4_b.jpg

32938614115_c696ea1915_b.jpg

32784747712_3e27cef1aa_b.jpg

 


Although this is the only one ever made, dreaming is still allowed right? :)

 

Rétromobile was an overwhelming experience. Much recommended to experience for anyone who is even mildly into vintage and classic cars!

 

 

 

Delage Champion du Monde
 

Those looking for an elaborate-as-possible book on the Delage 15-S-8 were, until last week, to be referred to the 12 page booklet "The 1926-27 1 1/2-Litre Delage" written by Cyril Posthumus, issued in 1966. It's an interesting text with several photos, but obviously does not contain as much information as one would desire. 

 

Ultimate connaisseur on Delage cars and history in general, and the 15-S-8 in particular, is Daniel Cabart. Together with Christophe Pund he wrote an impressive book titled "Delage Champion du Monde", referring to the Grand Prix World Championship title Delage won in 1927. 
 

img-6370867416.jpg?v=1



The book has 239 pages, is full of photographs and contains, beside the French text, a translation into English - a pleasant surprise. The book starts off by giving an illustrated description of the racing history of Delage. In the second chapter a description is given on the 1926- and 1927 models, in passing comparing the most important competitors to Delage, being Bugatti and Talbot. In Chapters 3 and 4 the Grand Prix seasons 1926 and 1927 are elaborated and detailed descriptions are given of the fate of each of the six chassis, who raced them and when, as well as what the racing results were. Mr Cabart has managed to find photographs of most every race, every situation and every pilot, making this book a treasure chest for those searching for visual evidence of a certain situation or for those who intend to find out where and when what chassis drove with what racing number. By the way, for our convenience all of this was also put in a clear schedule, containing all races in which any of the six cars has participated between the years 1926 and 1952. The book ends by giving an elaborate description of the people (drivers, designers) who played an important role in the cars' history as well as a number of extras. 

 

A very pleasant surprise to me was that the book contains a tracking of the four individual team car chassis from their last Grand Prix (1927 Brooklands) and that research has proven that chassis #3 is the car that Robert Benoist (the team's most succesful driver) always drove. Until reading this book I did not know this, even after reading several articles about the subject. I had actually read somewhere that the referred tracking was impossible. This new book proves otherwise. Also other things are clarified in the book, for example what the letter 'S' in the type name stands for and what the firing order of the engine was. For modeling, the latter is a nice little detail. 

 

Many photos were new to me, among which very valuable specimens such as those taken of the engine as it was in 1927 (left and right side). Also a great picture of the gearbox as it was in 1926 (with turned metal swirls... the designers must have really loved that feature!) is relevant, because those gearboxes were moved unchanged into the 1927-cars.

 

This book is a pageturner, an encyclopedia and a magnum opus on the Delage 15-S-8. Are there also critical observations? Of course, as no book is perfect. I missed a bit of personal history of Louis Delâge (it probably wasn't included because Mr Delâge wasn't as involved in the development of this racer as other people were) and in my view the description of the remarkable life story of Robert Benoist could have detailed upon a bit more (although I understand that more pages means extra costs). Also the book barely provides bite-sized information on the dimensions of the cars (although in the appended notes of the car's designer, Mr Albert Lory, there are measurements to be found here and there). This too can be explained, because no blueprints have survived and the precise measurements of the cars are not clear. 

 

The book was written in a very accessible way, is a joy to read and should be very interesting also for people who want to deepen their knowledge of this relatively unknown period in Grand Prix history. The appendices, among which several pages from Albert Lory's notebook containing lots of information on tests with the car and suggested improvements, provide a fascinating image of Grand Prix racing near the end of the 20s. The book succeeds in clarifying incisively how special the performances of these pilots really were, pilots who were gassed during races, sent to hospital with burns, saw their cars catch fire and had to steer their difficult to handle cars across hundreds of kilometers of dusty roads. In all, the book is an inspiration. 

Delage Champion du Monde, Daniel Cabart & Christophe Pund, 239p, €90,-, ISBN 978-2-8151-0362-6

 

 

This topic
 

Approaching the end of my research I am almost ready to start working on the model. I therefore asked this topic to be moved to the 'Work in Progress' section, which will be way easier for me than and for the interested readers than to switch between a topic with knowhow and a build topic. 

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Fantastic research and documentation Roy. You've chosen a marvelous project. The challenges of those louvers, engine,  plumbing and suspension will take a long, satisfying time to resolve.

 

Look forward to your presentation.

C

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Thank you very much, @Roy vd M., for this amazing reporting. :o

 

I'm very disappointed I was not able to visit this Retromobile show, and even more not having be able to meet you

This Delage is a pure beauty, and, if I may say so, my next "True Love", once my Bug's chassis is achieved, with the Fiat 806 in parallel :think:

 

I hope you'll be able to share with us your technical photos, because several modellers here, will probably have the willing to enter the challenge to scratch build it....at least I do !

 

It would  be also interesting, for those who will meet the challenge, to share the result of their works and  skills, manufacturing multiple copies of some parts they made, exchanging them with other parts of this car, made by other modellers of this forum ?

 

 

Edited by CrazyCrank
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On 2/17/2017 at 5:24 PM, Codger said:

Fantastic research and documentation Roy. You've chosen a marvelous project. The challenges of those louvers, engine,  plumbing and suspension will take a long, satisfying time to resolve.

 

Look forward to your presentation.

 

Thanks Codger... I like the way you atmospherically described the way to building this car from the bottom up. I agree it will take long and I also agree it will probably be very satisfying if solutions are found. Fortunately that's what this forum is for, help is always offered in case my own devised solutions do not work. 

 

On 2/17/2017 at 9:18 PM, CrazyCrank said:

I'm very disappointed I was not able to visit this Retromobile show, and even more not having be able to meet you

 

The same applies here, but I respect that you have more serious matters to attend to. I'm sure there will be another opportunity! 

 

Quote

This Delage is a pure beauty, and, if I may say so, my next "True Love", once my Bug's chassis is achieved, with the Fiat 806 in parallel :think:

 

It's for sure a very pretty car. Maybe not as attractive in its exterior lining as the Fiat was, but they are a close match! I can't imagine the Fiat's engine was prettier though, the Delage's truly is an oily work of art.

 

Quote

I hope you'll be able to share with us your technical photos, because several modellers here, will probably have the willing to enter the challenge to scratch build it....at least I do !

 

Unfortunately, because there are so many, realistically I cannot share all photos in one go and many are not very good. Along the way, with every subject, I will post the most important photos and videos I used as examples. Still then, my topics always contain overloads of photos and text. Don't worry about that :)

 

Quote

It would  be also interesting, for those who will meet the challenge, to share the result of their works and  skills, manufacturing multiple copies of some parts they made, exchanging them with other parts of this car, made by other modellers of this forum ?

 

That was the original idea in the Fiat thread and it may be a good idea to implement it also here although I think I'll want to build this car "all by myself". It's a boy's dream of mine to do something like that... create everything from scratch. That said, I think (although I don't know how that will be in the future) that once I'll have finished the moulds for the tyres for example (if I ever will), I won't mind using them to make a set of tyres for those who want them.... by the way, the scale would have to be the same of course. I can imagine this car being built in 1/8 scale.

 

 

 

 

Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/12)

 

 

1. After this ostentatious and unnecessary non-heading title (as if anyone had any doubts about the subject at hand) the build report herewith officially starts! 

 

First of all a warning. My topics are always extremely long (in case I don't give up on them), have an incredibly slow pace and contain too many texts and photos. Some people enjoy that, others don't. I thoroughly enjoy describing what I'm doing and now that I'll be working with techniques that are new to me (turning metal, milling, silver soldering, electroplating, et cetera. et cetera) I will describe all those techniques. The fact that I don't have much experience (although I practiced during the last one and a half month, of course) doesn't make this topic a beginner's guide to scratchbuilding, but more a view on metal-scratchbuilding through the eyes of a beginner. There will be many mistakes (I will describe and show all of them in an attempt to lure disaster tourists into this topic), such probably being one of the topic's main attractions. Where I won't correct my own mistakes I am sure the more experienced metalworking modelers will intervene.

 

Also I will try to make this topic attractive for those who have never used lathe, mill et cetera, by explaining from zilch and in a simple way what these machines can do and how they work. It is my experience that such information is hard to find. Authors tend to think that even those beginners who buy a beginners guide have at least a basic knowledge of certain techniques. Well I didn't have such basic knowledge! And many others had the same problems. Fortunately I found and studied some great sources of knowledges. 

 

More info along the way. Let's look at the first sub-project I'll attempt: the cooler linkage. Through this (partly hollowed) screw the cooling liquid is flown into the engine from the radiator. In creating it I will use the lathe and the mill. 

32404626130_ffbbf016ef_o.png

2. The build order of the part will be (the way I see it now) as follows:

2a. Starting point: aluminium rod. Side view:
32090047313_0717bde794_z.jpg

2b. The rod is turned on the lathe so that its surface gets smooth (elaborate explanation to follow). After that the incisions and grooves are turned. Also, the top part is bored (see the photo in paragraph 1) :
32090047183_dd13e64e53_z.jpg

2c. Next, the hexagonals are milled by means of a 0,6mm. micro milling cutter. I will use a dividing head for precision. In the next paragraph I'll explain what a dividing head is.
32524588570_318bdb30e2_z.jpg

 

3. A dividing table is used to divide an object into multiple citrus-like parts. In other words, it can rotate the workpiece like a wheel, whereby numerous different divisions can be made. After each division, the milling machine takes a cut (=one side of the hexagonal) or the drilling machine is used to drill a hole, for example.

 

Take the hexagonal as seen above. The aluminium rod has to be divided into six parts. Each part is (360/6=) 60 degrees beyond the previous. After each 60 degrees-rotation, the milling machine is used to cut off one of the six sides. After six such cuts, the dividing table has made the part turn 360 degrees. 

 

Another example... the drilling of spokes for a wheel. The Delage's wheel hub contains 20+20+10+10 holes. I will show that in paragraph 4. In the wheel hub there are four bands of spoke holes, the top one bearing 20 holes, the one below that also 20 holes, the bottom two bands each containing 10 holes. 

 

It looks like the next drawing, top image (next to the word "NAAF"). Ignore the bottom image of the drawing ("VELG") because that image depicts the wheel's rim. In the top image you can see four rows of holes, two on top (=each in reality consisting of 20 holes) and two on the bottom (each in reality consisting of 10 holes). 

 

3a.
32097037003_1fb417e9a7_b.jpg

 

To make each of the 20-band holes, the dividing table divides into parts of (360/20) 18 degrees each.

To make each of the 10-band holes, the dividing table divides into parts of (360/10) 36 degrees each.

 

With my specific dividing table, a division in parts of 18 degrees (=20 spokes) means a handle movement of exactly two full rotations. That is done 20 times. In the next video you see a full 360 degrees revolution. (=20x2 handle rotations) :

 

3b.

 

Making divisions for 20 spoke holes is easy, because full rotations of the handle are made (twice per spoke). However, suppose for example that there are not 20 but 26 spokes. Then a circle of 360 degrees has to be divided by 26... that is 13,84615 degrees per spoke. How to do that? 

 

In that case the handle of the division head has to be rotated one full swing 'and a bit'. Even that little bit can be assessed extremely precisely by using a dividing head. 

 

The dividing head comes with four small disks, each containing numbers of equally spaced holes. In the dividing head's instructions there is a table from which you can read which disk has to be used for a certain number of divisions / spokes as well as the number of holes the handle has to be advanced. For example for 26 spokes the table says you can use disk '39'. That is a disk with 39 holes punched into it, equally spaced. The table instructs that the handle should be advanced one full revolution plus 21 holes. 

 

So, instead of 2 full revolutions of the handle (for 20 spokes), 1 full revolution plus 21/39 revolution (for 26 spokes) is used, a total of 26 times. Doing exactly that will make the dividing head (and wheel hub attached to it) rotate 360 degrees.

 

This is a picture of the disk with 27 (inner ring) and 42 (outer ring) holes: 


3c.
32097577073_930039b835_b.jpg

 

So to get back to step 2c, what follows is a description of the way I intend to make the hexagonal. 

 

3d. Top view of the turned and lathe-shaped rod: 


32883044586_a8fb26ca42_b.jpg

The above part is mounted on the dividing head which is set on position 0 (=0 degrees). 

 

3e. Here you see the starting position of the milling cutter:

32883044696_b47bf800f2_b.jpg

3f. If the milling cutter is moved downward, one of six sides of the hexagonal is cut off:



32883044436_8bc0e6352e_b.jpg

3g. Next the dividing head is turned 60 degrees. That's six full handle rotations plus 18/27th part of one rotation (=6 2/3 rotation). The second hexagonal face is cut: 



32108677383_9d55eaf559_b.jpg

3h. Repeating the last step four times, should result into a hexagonal shape: 

32883044056_cb77c5e176_b.jpg

 

4. On the basis of drawings and photos I made during Rétromobile I made a wiring diagram of the Delage's wheels. It is more difficult than it seems! Anyway, the rim has three rows of spokes whereas the hub has four rows divided into two sections (see drawing 3a). 

4a. The spokes on the outer side of the wheel:
32062215714_21c7b5d91f_b.jpg

4b. Here you can see the spokes at the inner side of the wheel (the arrowed spokes are attached in the centre row of the rim, the rest is attached to the inner row) :


32751338482_0524e641cd_b.jpg

As described before, there are 60 spokes in one wheel: 40 on the inner side (10 sets of 4) and 20 on the outer side (5 sets of 4). 

 

Next post, a description of the lathe and milling machine including their accessories. 

Edited by Roy vd M.
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This is way over my head in so far as the techniques you will be using. But, it's such a beautiful subject, and I always like to see how others go about their scratchbuilds. I will definitely be following along, even though I very much doubt I will anything other than encouragement to offer!

 

Ian

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@limeypilot Thank you for that encouragement and following the thread. It is my intention to try explaining everything I do or attempt, from the absolute basis. I hope that will make things interesting to follow. 

 

Also I intend to also describe alternative methods for those without a lathe and/or milling machine and/or vertical drilling machine. So this will not be a topic only for those who own (or want to purchase) this machinery. 

 

@Jnkm13 You never know what methods and techniques can be useful (perhaps amended) in the future. I'm glad you appreciate the effort of describing these things in detail. 

 

 

5. The last month and a half I practiced working with the lathe. Basically there are to ways of introducing lathe and milling machine:

 

1) either slowly while the topic progresses, by describing the accessories and techniques insofar they were used;

2) or by writing an elaborate post containing photos and descriptions of all materials, thereafter repeating that as written under 1). 

 

After deliberation with a friend I opted for 2). You're currently reading the mentioned elaborate post (regarding the lathe), meant for those who have no idea whatsoever what these machines can do or how they function. Of course the explanations are very basal and hopefully comprehensible for everyone. Please ask if I'm unclear at any point. 

 

I'll start with the lathe. In a next post I'll describe the mill. 

5a. The lathe

32154803474_cbe033a3c3_b.jpg

This is the lathe. It consists of three main parts, numbered '1', '2' and '3'. 

 

Part '1' is called the spindle. It is a rotating disk driven by a motor. If you push the 'on/off'-button of the lathe, that disk will start rotating. The rotational speed can be set. Usually a chuck is mounted on the spindle. Everyone knows a chuck from a standard handheld drilling machine. Such a machine contains a chuck to hold the drill bit. On the handheld drilling machine, a drill bit can be positioned and then tightened by turning a key on the chuck. A lathe's chuck works similarly. There is also a difference though. In the chuck of a handheld drilling machine you can mount drill bits, whereas on the chuck of a lathe the workpiece is mounted. For example, an aluminium or brass cilinder that's about to be turned. 

 

Part '2' is called the tool post. The cutting tool is mounted onto the tool post. Suppose the lathe is switched on. The cutting tool does not touch the work piece. Then the cutting tool is directed toward the work piece. As soon as the cutting tool touches the rotating work piece, a bit of that work piece is cut off. The future shape of the work piece therefore depends on how the tool post is moved.

 

 

The tool post can be moved all across the length of the lathe, from its ultimate right border all the way to the left (although of course it would not be a good idea to cut the chuck!), but also from the front all the way to the back (away from you). The hand wheels do these movements. Four out of five hand wheels you see on the photo, are used to move the tool post.

 

 

Finally, part '3', situated at the right side of the lathe. That part is called the tailstock. For example, a drill bit can be mounted in the tailstock. Such a drill bit is used to drill a hole in the head of a work piece. The tailstock can be moved, just like the tool post, all the way to the left of the lathe (=toward the work piece). If the tailstock is in position and you want to drill, the lathe is switched on, after which the hand wheel of the tailstock is rotated. That will make the drill bit move even closer to the work piece. Unlike a drilling machine, the drill bit itself does not rotate. 


5b. Standard chuck

32957662806_d2e4d95a41_b.jpg
 

This is a standard self-centering chuck. It already contains a work piece (just admire its smooth glossy finish...  nowink.gif). At the front you see one of three holes for the chuck key. This chuck is self-centering: if you right-turn the key in one of three holes, the chuck's claws simultaneously move toward the chuck's centre. If you left-turn the key, the chuck's claws simultaneously move away from the chuck's centre. The three black bolts on the face of the chuck are used to mount the chuck on part A as seen in the previous photo.  

5c. Independent four claw chuck

32844134302_1e5bf8b331_b.jpg

This chuck contains four four rather than three claws. Because it isn't self-centered (the chucks move independently), it can be used to mount work pieces that are not circular, such as cams. 

5d. Mounting disk

32183935763_7f648972e5_b.jpg

Like a chuck, this mounting disk is screwed onto the spindle (part A as seen in photo 5a). The mounting disk is used to mount larger, irregular work pieces. 

5e. Collet chuck

32154403684_9673ddcb1a_b.jpg

Here you see (in position on the lathe) a collet chuck. Most people probably know collets from use on a Dremel or other multitool. On a Dremel it can be used to house a drill bit shaft, sliding it in and then clamping it. Through clamping it's automatically centered. A collet chuck is more accurate than a regular chuck. The problem is that you'll need exactly the right size.

 

On a lathe, the work piece is mounted in the collet chuck.  

5f. The collets

32873577261_51b4a36d93_b.jpg

These are the collets to be used in the collet chuck. These are different from the collets to be used in the milling machine. 

5g. Accessories for the tailstock

32999367465_fee3a3192c_b.jpg

Getting back to the tailstock for a moment. I already mentioned that a drill chuck can be mounted on it. The drill chuck can be seen on the right. It works exactly the same way as a drill chuck on the handheld drilling machine. To be able to drill accurately on the lathe, one will first have to find the center of the workpiece. That's done by a center drill. Three of those center drills are seen on the left (six sizes in total). Using a center drill, first a small hole is drilled into the center of the work piece. Next the regular drilling can be done. 

 

In the center of the photo you see a so-called... 'center'. A center can be mounted on the tailstock. It can be used to touch and 'grab' the end of a long work piece, so that it won't vibrate and will stay stable. The best method is to first drill a hole with a center drill, to know for sure that the center won't detach. 

5h. Center arrangement

32999369065_7232abf61c_b.jpg

I just mentioned that the work piece can be mounted on a chuck on the left side of the lathe, and 'grabbed' by a center on the right side of the lathe. 

 

Alternatively it is possible to put the work piece between two centers. The left hand chuck is then replaced by a center. To facilitate this, a center arrangement is used (see photo). To provide sufficient grip to get the work piece to rotate (and keep rotating even if pressure is applied by the cutting tool), a disk is used. That disk turns parallel to the spindle ('A' on photo 5a), clamping around the work piece. 

5i. Radii cutter

32183934983_0d8d1bf283_b.jpg

To apply curves in the work piece, a cutting cool can be mounted on the radii cutter. The jig, in its turn, is then mounted on the tool post ('B' on photo 5a). 

5j. Follower rest

32844136412_7b3a4cbcb9_b.jpg

To support the work piece when it is being subjected to forces from the cutting tool, a follower rest can be installed. It 'follows' the cutting tool as it is fixed to the tool post. 

5k. Cutting tools HSS

32844136232_5cf58e6f59_b.jpg

The cutting tool is mounted on the tool holder. There are several kinds of cutting tools in different materials, each having its own function and purpose. In the above photo you see a number of HSS (high speed steel) cutting tools for regular turning (the bottom box) and for threading (the upper box). In the top of the picture there's a cut off-tool, meant to cut off a work piece from its metal cylinder. 

5l. Indexable turning tools

32873580691_d00f89e814_b.jpg

These are cutting tool holders, really. The actual cutting tools (gold color) can be easily replaced. My practice up till now has been with HSS cutting tools but I plan to use the indexable tools for turning the Delage parts. Thanks to @vontrips for the tip to purchase Glanze indexable tools. 

5m. Indexable turning tools, special cutters

32154409804_687d7e5906_b.jpg

These are indexable turning tools as well, intended for threading (the middle two), contouring (the one at the bottom) and parting off a work piece (the top one). Thanks to @vontrips for the tip on the contour tool. 

5n. Threading arrangement

32957670176_f00fdbc56d_b.jpg

Threading can be done using cutting cools, but alternatively a threading arrangement can be used. It works faster but the downside is that you'll need exactly the right threading plate for the job. The above shows threading plates for M3 up to and including M10. The tool is mounted on the tailstock (for centering) but it is applied manually. The tool is therefore handheld and the work piece can be rotated by hand as well. 

5o. Sorting

32957663676_cfb38e0046_b.jpg

The accessories are neatly arranged in a drawer. Each box was marked ('D' for the lathe, 'F' for the milling machine). One drawer is for all lathe-related stuff, another for all milling-related stuff and a third one for all cutting tools and milling cutters.

In my next post, I'll provide a description of the mill and mill-related accessories. 

Edited by Roy vd M.
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Roy, what a great thread you are creating here. Not only with respect to the model but also with respect to methods and tooling. This will help many along.

great machine you have, this PD400 and a nice set of accessoires.

One thing to add. You described the main components of the lathe, but forgot to mention the name of what you indicated as Part 1.

It is the headstock.

 

Superb stuff and I will be following you closely on this challenging endeavor.

 

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