Delage 15-S-8 Grand Prix (1/8)

[NickD]

Roy,

 

Love tracking your progress on this - 9 components done only 15489 to go.

 

One thought on the machine turning. In the photos it is a very visible but subtle effect. To my eye, more like the cutting marks on the engine component in the picture though with a much smaller radius obviously. The small circles though capturing the scale well still look too heavy to me. I think (and I have no skill or experience in this realm so who am I to say! But I'm not going to let that stop me...) it's more about abrasion than cutting - this link kind of supports the view http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/abrasive-machining/noobies-1st-attempt-machine-turning-270778/ - now all you need to do is find a 1mm diameter abrasive pad!

 

ATB

 

Nick

[Roy vd M.]

@PROPELLER It was not that simple. Yesterday I explained my original reasons to get a lathe-mill combo to someone and in the end I had written a full page of text So I won't try here. Let's just say that I didn't have the space for the milling machine I wanted and that there are also advantages to the milling-lathe combo. Even now I will sometimes have to use that combo, if I want to use the dividing head. For the FF230 milling machine there's a smaller dividing head but I wanted the big one with more options. The large dividing head only works on either a larger milling machine (which didn't fit on my working table in my ultra-small workshop) OR on the PD400 lathe which I own. That made my choice easy. The FF230 turns out to be a highly precise and accurate instrument, much more than I had expected, so I'm very happy to have purchased it. And the independent table neatly (just) fits on my workbench. So 80% of the time I'll use the mill on its table, 20% of the time on the lathe. 

 

@NickD 17 components have been finalized (hopefully, or at least 16). Mind that 8 of them (the top spark plug halves) still have to be partly painted. But I know what you're saying... and you're right. I think these are difficult parts I'm testing and I can't do much more than that until I'll have the true measurements. Could take a few more months so I'll happily practice. 

 

Regarding the 'swirl' marks, you are rights they are still cut. But let me assure you that when you see them in real life you'll have to really look closely to see what's happening there. On this picture for example: 

 

 

... the 1mm. swirls are seen magnified 4 times. Don't be fooled by that zoom-factor. 

 

That having said I was still looking for a better method... abrasive action was also my aim. So I definitely agree with the principle of what you're saying.


164. This evening I turned a piece of steel to a 1mm. diameter. Using a punch & die set I punched a 1mm. disk of sanding paper. I super-glued it to the steel and turned the circles manually.



165. The result is better than before:


 

To clarify once more how small these are (on another forum I keep getting advice that would apply to 1 inch diameter 'swirls'... this really is a lot different!), a series of twenty overlapping swirls can fit in a row of 1 centimeter. 

 

Compare the cutting action (to the left) with the abrasive action.

 

Next test: check how this will look on a smoother surface.

[NickD]

Looking good

[Robin Lous]

I feel your pain...struggling with the same "aluminium bouchonné" issue atm 

[Roy vd M.]

Thanks Nick! Robin, I think I have it solved... the sandpaper thing does the trick. 

 

By the way your job is easier and more difficult at the same time. Your 'swirls' can have a larger diameter, which will greatly reduce the cutting effect.... but you don't have a milling bed / crosstable so you'll have to do your own positioning. For just a dashboard that's not the end of the world though.

 

 

166. These are 1mm. 'swirls'... this is an effect that I had not hoped to achieve. The only problem: the sandpaper slowly loosens. What you see on the picture / video is the number of 'swirls' I can make with one micro-pad. 

 

 

 

 

[Robin Lous]

3 minutes ago, Roy vd M. said:

By the way your job is easier and more difficult at the same time.

My problem...I "only" have a Proxxon drill with a flex shaft (I have a drill stand also, but it sucks completely...no accuracy whatsoever!).

Free hand seems impossible...any type of bit is bouncing off in random directions....I can't get nice even circles done.

I keep trying and my brain is working overtime to find some sort of solution.

 

[Roy vd M.]

@Robin Lous 

 

Until I got a milling machine I used my Proxxon multitool with the MB200 (I think it is) and I must say it worked quite well.  

 

 

 

Plus this thing, the MS 4:

 

 

 

The combination with multitool looks like this:

 

 

 

I'd recommend it for a job like this, or for any other job that calls for a reasonable amount of precision. I guarantee you'll be able to make the 'swirls' with that. It's quite a stable configuration. 

 

You can get them for (€75,- + €15,-) 90 euros here in Rotterdam.  

 

Once (if) you own this drill stand, you'll realize you will use it often. Or so I did. 

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Roy vd M.

[Robin Lous]

Dear Roy,

 

I own...and tried...this, but it's not firm or steady enough for the job.

Now thinking about using the backside of a bit (between 2 and 3 mm will do) and a hammer, but not now...I have neighbours trying to sleep right above my hobby room.

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Robin Lous

[Roy vd M.]

@Robin Lous I think the key lies in getting the vise to clamp onto its rectangular guide on the drill stand, for example by fitting some metal sheet between vise and guide. 

 

Using a bit that was too rough (I can't find the collet for the bit I showed you in PM that I used to make the 2mm. swirls) and trying to hold the vise in place by hand, I get the following results.

 

Machined:

 

 

Hand-rotated:

 

 

Better results are possible, as said, if you can find a way to increase vise-bed friction. 

[Roy vd M.]

@Robin Lous A solution is to add four pieces of sanding paper (I used grid 400 but I think any 'serious' grid would do) to set the vise onto the drill stand's head. 

 

Of course it costs more manual force to move the vise horizontally, but the tightness is necessary to not let the drill distort the position of the workpiece. 

 

Sorry for the shaky image:

 

 

Here the result (it's the only vertical row of swirls). 

 

 

As you can see, the swirls are now circular and non-distorted. Of course they are not evenly spaced, as this was just a quick demonstration (and one hand was holding the camera) but that can be measured. Happy to have the crosstable in my workshop, but with patience and care you can do the spacing manually. 

 

The other thing you'll notice is that there has been a cutting action rather than abrasive action. To make the 2mm. swirls look good you can use this bit made by Dremel: 

 

 

 

I can't demonstrate that bit on the multitool because, as mentioned before, I can't find the corresponding multitool collet. 

 

I also can't demonstrate my own '1mm. swirl maker' because it would need a 4mm. collet which does not exist for the Proxxon multitool. 

 

So the point is that, in my view, this could be a doable way to get satisfactory turned metal results.

 

Checklist:

- Find an appropriate tool bit for the machining action. 

- Mount the multitool onto the drill stand and tighten its screw well.

- Use a collet that fits the bit perfectly. Only use steel Proxxon collets! You can buy them as a set... if you are using different collets those may well be the reason for your stability problem.

- Test-run the multitool to see if the bit is perfectly centered. If not, get another bit or use another collet. 

- Tighten the drill bed guide screw. 

- Use four pieces of sand paper to secure the vise to the rectangular bed guide. The smooth side of the sand paper should run along the guide. 

- Don't put too much force on the lever. It takes no effort at all to create a swirl. 

- After every move (left or right) of the vise, push it down with your left hand. While the sand paper will keep it in place horizontally, your hand will keep it in place vertically. 

- Find a way to carefully measure each move. 

[sharknose156]

Roy, fantastic work really !  my hat off.

 

 

 

[Pouln]

Roy, I'm totally amazed of what you are doing here and thank you for sharing your journey with us. 

It is as if you take us with you in your mental process ( well, sort off) during thinking about methods, processes etc.

Really fun to read.

 

On 23-4-2017 at 7:59 PM, PROPELLER said:

 

Good news indeed! One tool, one function, it's a rule...

 

Well, in principle I agree, but in this case there is a but....

For some procedures there is a big advantage in having the mill setub fixed to the lathe. When you need to turn parts, then mill certain areas an then turn again, you'll have a big advantage if you can keep the work piece in the chuck (like the hexes on the sparkplugs, specifically if more turning actions are needed).

 

But, on the othe hand, a freestanding mill has big advantages too as the workarea is often larger compared to the area on the lathe. 

[Roy vd M.]

@sharknose156 Thank you very much.   
 

On 4/24/2017 at 11:02 PM, Pouln said:

Roy, I'm totally amazed of what you are doing here and thank you for sharing your journey with us. 

It is as if you take us with you in your mental process ( well, sort off) during thinking about methods, processes etc.

Really fun to read.

 

Thanks for this nice compliment.

 

On 4/24/2017 at 11:02 PM, Pouln said:

When you need to turn parts, then mill certain areas an then turn again, you'll have a big advantage if you can keep the work piece in the chuck (like the hexes on the sparkplugs, specifically if more turning actions are needed).

 

On the rotating head each of the lathe's chucks can be mounted is so desired. If it is very important to keep a certain piece in a certain chuck (for example, if it will have to be turned again), I could attach the milling machine to the lathe. 

 

 

167. The drawing of the engine block's parts (central part) is ready (mostly). 




168. The parts to be soldered to the front: 



169. The blueprint was checked for coherence once more, also regarding the position of the cams (50 degrees), it appears to be correct.



170. The larger parts as drawn before, have been highlighted onto the blueprint as well as numbered.



171. The next drawing shows, in the left column, the external dimensions of the parts. In the right hand column the pieces of aluminium that arrived last week, are chosen.  



172. These are the pieces of aluminium:



173. After cutting these profiles with the cross-cut saw (seven times 10x5, three times 15x8, once 20x20) a schematic overview of the black can be built. One of the parts is (hopefully) already finished, as described and shown before.




Total building time: 46h.

Total measurements-study: 30h.  

[Codger]

A staggering accomplishment of measuring, drawing, planning, experimenting and execution. No mere compliments can suffice and certainly no criticisms.

 

I can only be speechless and just take it all in. Do not mistake that for ambivalence or indifference Roy. You are conducting a clinic that I'm sure Wingrove would envy.

 

And probably learn from.

 

EDIT. My single reservation is that it is not 1/8 scale. I'd wish for that because the whole's beauty could be enjoyed that much more easily were it larger. A thing of great beauty will emerge from this regardless.

Edited April 27, 2017 by Codger

[hendie]

58 minutes ago, Codger said:

I can only be speechless and just take it all in.

 

I'm with you there.  This is just breathtaking in it's ... it's.... it just blows me so far away that I don't have adequate words to describe how impressed I am.

[Roy vd M.]

1 hour ago, Codger said:

A staggering accomplishment of measuring, drawing, planning, experimenting and execution. No mere compliments can suffice and certainly no criticisms.

 

I can only be speechless and just take it all in. Do not mistake that for ambivalence or indifference Roy. You are conducting a clinic that I'm sure Wingrove would envy.

 

And probably learn from.

 

28 minutes ago, hendie said:

I'm with you there.  This is just breathtaking in it's ... it's.... it just blows me so far away that I don't have adequate words to describe how impressed I am.

 

Guys you're making me feel a bit uncomfortable... at this point I'm only trying to do what I hope to have learned from Mr Wingrove and so many others, among you Codger (and probably in the nearby future also you Hendie, whose thread I just discovered and which I'll still have to read... I like these atypical subjects and I like trains so I'll definitely have a look). There is nothing that I could ever teach Mr Wingrove because I'm just basing the things I try on his knowledge. Honestly, although I'll accept almost any compliment, this goes way too far (meant in a respectful way toward its maker). I do appreciate the fact that you like the progress though, of course! 

 

1 hour ago, Codger said:

EDIT. My single reservation is that it is not 1/8 scale. I'd wish for that because the whole's beauty could be enjoyed that much more easily were it larger. 

 

The original idea was to establish a collection of historically important Grand Prix cars, such as the McLaren MP4/6 or MP4/4, this Delage, the Fiat 806*, the Williams FW14, the Red Bull RB9, the Ferrari F2002, the Talbot-Darracq, the Lotus 18 et cetera. 

 

I had started the 1/12th scale McLaren MP4/6 which I plan to finalize, so the most logical thing to do (given that I'd like to showcase the cars together) was to also build the other cars in 1/12 scale. 

 

In scale 1/8 certain problems that arise already now, at the beginning of this build, could be dealt with in an easier, more controlled way. Details would be better visible (such as the many hundreds of engine turned metal 'swirls') and detailing would be better doable. The lathe would probably be up for the job, as would the milling machine. It would cost more money to produce the model but the end result would probably look better.

 

This would be the last less-than-painful moment to make this decision. Only the 8 spark plugs have been made; making new ones would cost me -only- approximately 12 hours I expect. 

 

So let's do it... 1/8 it is. And thank you very much for this well-timed reservation-cocooned advice! 

 

 

* Insofar possible, but it's probably incompatible with my control-freakish mindset to not accept uncertainties... and with that car there are a lot of pieces missing from the jigsaw; I'm afraid I'll eventually not be satisfied with the results I'll be able to achieve because of that - although I do enjoy watching progress that others are making.

[RandyD]

Hello Roy,

 

  Great stuff going on here sir !!!  Look forward to following along on your journey.

 

  Randy

[Jnkm13]

Hi Roy,

 

I think 1/8 is an excellent decision. Building the Bentley Blower at 1/12, the scale certainly limits what the details one is able to add. A larger scale would definitely allow you to add all the details you want, and I think it would also be easier machining parts in larger scale looking at how detailed your build is going to be.

 

Regards,

Jeremy

[PROPELLER]

Welcome to the 1/8 scale manufacturers club!

Wise decision...

Still there is the delicate problem of tires, good luck!

Dan.

[CrazyCrank]

1 hour ago, PROPELLER said:

Welcome to the 1/8 scale manufacturers club!

Wise decision...

Still there is the delicate problem of tires, good luck!

Dan.

 

Yes @Roy vd M. very good decision

And with all yours skills, no doubt that you would be able to build a working engine at this scale

 

[Codger]

I am overjoyed that my suggestion made sense to you. Your reference and drawings are all still invaluable.

And now that you've cut some metal and got comfortable with the tools, that's all invaluable experience.

Thank you Roy, you've just made the lot of we big scale hooligans very happy.

[sharknose156]

Excellent decision indeed. 

 

Your build was already a unique proposition, now this is a moment where you are crossing into a legendary build and name for yourself in our modeling world.  i am sure now you do have all the skills and the patience to come out with a truly great car.

 

For the tyres i believe Von Trips has great solutions, but i am sure you have your own as well, and since a while.

 

well done Roy 

 

 

[PROPELLER]

Von Trips? Please let me know...

[Roy vd M.]

16 hours ago, RandyD said:

Great stuff going on here sir !!!  Look forward to following along on your journey.

 

Thank you Randy. Likewise from what I saw from your hand thus far... I'll go and study that.

 

15 hours ago, Jnkm13 said:

I think 1/8 is an excellent decision. Building the Bentley Blower at 1/12, the scale certainly limits what the details one is able to add. A larger scale would definitely allow you to add all the details you want, and I think it would also be easier machining parts in larger scale looking at how detailed your build is going to be.

 

I think you are right. I'm glad that you (and the others, Propeller, Thierry, Sam) are supportive of this change of plan.

 

8 hours ago, PROPELLER said:

Welcome to the 1/8 scale manufacturers club!

Wise decision...

Still there is the delicate problem of tires, good luck!

Dan.

 

The preliminary plan to build the tyres does not differ from what I had planned in 1/12th scale. See paragraph 174 below.

 

You're right that this was largest question mark. But it turns out that the lathe (Proxxon 400) is large enough to do the job.  

 

6 hours ago, CrazyCrank said:

 

Yes @Roy vd M. very good decision

And with all yours skills, no doubt that you would be able to build a working engine at this scale

 

 

Thierry... that is, unfortunately, a good idea... not really a working engine but, like you did, working pedals and levers etc... I'm looking forward to attempting that  

 

5 hours ago, Codger said:

I am overjoyed that my suggestion made sense to you. Your reference and drawings are all still invaluable.

And now that you've cut some metal and got comfortable with the tools, that's all invaluable experience.

Thank you Roy, you've just made the lot of we big scale hooligans very happy.

 

And I am very glad that you made the suggestion!

 

Yes the reference and drawings only need minor modification (different numbers), the ratios still stand of course. 

 

2 hours ago, sharknose156 said:

Excellent decision indeed.  

(...)

i am sure now you do have all the skills and the patience to come out with a truly great car.

 

Thanks Sam, I hope you are right. Even my girlfriend has found a bit of enthusiasm for this change of plan! 

 

Quote

For the tyres i believe Von Trips has great solutions, but i am sure you have your own as well, and since a while.

 

VonTrips did an excellent job in producing copies from an existing Protar tyre. I think what Propeller points at is, how to make the master. I'm going to try Gerald Wingrove's method... not going to be easy but I'll try a dozen times if necessary.  

 

 

174. For making tyres I will try to use the method as set out by Gerald Wingrove in his book "The Complete Car Modeler 1", pages 22-27, that is: turning the master on the lathe and then moulding it in resin (Mr Wingrove originally used rubber but @vontrips recommended using resin as that will probably stand the test of time better), then moulding it again.

 

The first thing to check after making the decision to turn to 1/8th scale was, whether my own lathe would not be small enough. If not I'd have had to use a large lathe (could have done that at my car repair man but that's 60km. from here...). 

 

The diameter of the tyres will be, approximately, 10,1 centimeters. 

 

As a matter of coincidence, the lathe's standard chuck has a diameter of... 10,1 centimeters! That means that the diameter of the chuck is approximately 3 millimeters larger than the diameter of a tyre in 1/8 scale. As can be seen, the cutting tool can freely move. According to the lathe's specifications, a maximum diameter of 11,6 centimeters is possible. I am now so... extremely... happy that I got this larger size (my thought then: "you never know"), because if I had purchased one size smaller, the PD 230, the maximum diameter would have been 86mm and that would not have sufficed! 

 

 

175. Today my electroplating set arrived. I'm almost sure I will use electroplating to get the turned metal effect. 

 

 

In the manual it says that, unfortunately, aluminium cannot be plated (or it's not advised). That means I'll use brass for certain parts of the engine. I couldn't find an answer to my question whether a seam of silver solder would be nickelplated just as well (getting the same colour) as the brass. In his first book, Mr Wingrove did not treat that question. As I had contact with him before and he had offered help in case I ever had a question I felt confident enough to ask him. 

 

Soon enough came his reassuring answer: 

 

(...)do all of you soldering before the plating, and there should be no problem plating over the soldered joints. However remember that the finish/polish, that you obtain on the finished parts, will be the same finish that you will have on the plated parts. The plating is the final process, do nothing after it or you can expect problems, particularly if you try soldering.

 

When you solder something, particularly silver soldering, you will be heating it - to heat metal is to expand it - brass - nickel and chrome will expand at different rates, so expect the plating to separate from the brass - big problems.

 

Check through my build photos and see if you can find the joins on the plated parts, all are fabricated with either soft or silver solder. If there are a lot of big soft soldered joints, and you are concerned that some might show, then the solution is to have the parts copper plated first, polish these then go for the chrome or nickel plating, but I have never needed to do this.(...)

 

What a great guy, so friendly and willing to pass his extensive knowledge! 

 

176. Reassured I went to a warehouse where they sell brass and all other kinds of metals in any shape. I asked them to cut in pieces of 11cm. length. The difference in size between 1/12 and 1/8 is remarkable:

 

 

 

 

 

Heavy stuff, by the way! What you see on the last picture weighs 2 kg. (=4,4 pounds). I'll surely have to hollow it to prevent the suspension from collapsing. 

 

Insofar possible, getting to work in this new scale has motivated me to start even more than before! Thank you all and mainly Codger for these motivations and ideas!

[CrazyCrank]

 

Evening @Roy vd M.

 

I quote you: "In the manual it says that, unfortunately, aluminium cannot be plated (or it's not advised). That means I'll use brass for certain parts of the engine. I couldn't find an answer to my question whether a seam of silver solder would be nickelplated just as well (getting the same colour) as the brass."

 

If you read another time the answers I made you on another post, you'll notice that I already advised that it's not possible to nickelplate aluminium; in all events, it's impossible with the nickel plating system provided by Frost Restoration.

You'll have to use brass or copper for that.

 

Regarding your question, I can certify that it is possible to nickelplate a tin solder. In any case, it worked for me 

I've not yet tried to nickelplate a silversolder....I think we'll experiment that simultaneously