274 Sqn Tempests Volkel Feb 1945

[bobsyouruncle]

Hi Gents,

I've been trying to do some digging regarding matching squadron codes to serial numbers for this period with the idea of using one of them as the subject for my Special Hobby model and would be grateful if someone could let me know if I'm right with this or have got it wrong please?

I was cross matching F/O Spence's log codes to the squadron record books for February, so would I be right in thinking that:-

At this time  EJ771 would be JJ-W? - (listed as 'W' in Spence's log both on the 26th and 28th Feb, and the machine he was shot down in; also flown on 21st by S/L Fairbanks and F/L Hibbert - who got a Ju88 with it).

At this time  EJ648 would be JJ-R? -  Spence logs 1.35 in 'R' on the 25th that matches the sqn record for him in EJ648 . (His log states he spent 25 mins on air test in 'U' as well but this is not listed in the record book at all and the previous 'U' - EJ687- that he flew on the 6th was lost on the 21st with F/O Day). I believe that S/L Fairbanks used this one on the 22nd against two Dora 9s?

 

If the codes are correct, am I right in thinking that at this period in Feb, it was the C1 roundels on the upper wing surface, with the black spinner and no tail banding. Also that the JJ on the stbd side of the aircraft was tailside of the roundel (unlike some in

photos in Sept 44)?

 

Thanks very much in advance for any inputs/corrections.

Bob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ossington 2]

Fighter Squadrons of the RAF, J.D.R. Rawlings, Macdonald & Co., 1969, p.388: 

EJ525 K

EJ714 W

EJ744 K

EJ783 N

EJ893 W

NV702 E

NV758 N

NV947 S

SN145 D

SN183 J

All coded JJ. I guessing that the two "N"s mean a replacement machine. 

I've just had a swift shufti on TNA's "Discovery" web site. Some of AIR27/1591/28 can be viewed with a distorted image (unless you pay) I can see serials, but not allocated letters. I'm presuming you know this. Try going forward or back over the months, something might be logged. There is also a file for their combat reports, but, to quote Forrest Gump, "you just don't know what you're gonna get." Good Luck.

 

 

[Chris Thomas]

Hi Bob

The process you have gone through is a valid technique for discovering code/serial links. You have to bear in mind that ORB serials are not always correct (for various reasons, also varying between units and for periods within units). I have 'done' Spence's log just as you have and drawn the same conclusions. EJ771/W and EJ687/U are confirmed by other pilots's logs by the same process.  EJ648/R only has Spence's log as a source at the moment.

 

Yes, type C1 roundel in all positions, Sky bands and invasion stripes (which had only been under the fuselage) painted out, black spinners.  

 

Code positions difficult!  274's original Tempests seem to have JJ forward of the roundel on both sides; EJ648/R was one of these.  By the end of the war they had reverted to the more usual presentation, and my money would be on W and U to have been the same. No useful photos for the early 45 period I'm afraid.

CT

[bobsyouruncle]

Thanks very much for the input, Gents, much appreciated.

Ossington, yes I've got that book myself but very kind of you to list those for me, thank you very much. 

As you can see from your list in the book and as you rightly say yourself, the squadron letter codes were swapped onto different aircraft at different times, with some being lost and others replacing them, etc. (which is why we've got two 'K's, two 'W's and two 'N's listed there).

 

Here's a list I've compiled so far solely by cross-matching the logs of Spence and Penny to the Sqn Operational Record Books January to April 1945 (yes I paid to see them undistorted). Obviously others are listed in books.

As in your list, some squadron letters appear twice. I've listed the Month they match log against serial number (as Chris says, there may be errors in the logs/ORBs and I might have made some myself too).

Just for interest:-

 

JJ-A     January 1945    EJ775

            April 1945          EJ772

 

JJ-B     April 1945         EJ865

                                      NV922

 

JJ-C     March 1945      EJ779

             April 1945            "

 

JJ-D     April 1945         NV665

 

JJ-E     January 1945    EJ764

            April 1945          NV762

            April 1945          SN181 (+)

 

JJ-G    April 1945          EJ989

            April 1945          NV697 (*)

 

JJ-H    February 1945   EJ751

 

JJ-K    March 1945       NV697 (* also appears as G in April above)

            April 1945

 

JJ-M    February 1945   NV722

            March 1945       NV660

 

JJ-R    February 1945   EJ648

 

JJ-S    April 1945          SN181  (+ also appears as E in April above)

 

JJ-T    January 1945     EJ688

 

JJ-U   February 1945    EJ687

 

JJ-W  February 1945    EJ771

 

JJ-X   January 1945      EJ781

 

JJ-Z   February 1945    NV705

 

There will be more aircraft serials that match letters that I've not included here of course, but if anyone spots any errors with what I have listed could they please let me know?

 

Hi Chris, thanks very much for your information. I'd been delving into two of your books looking for info ('Typhoon and Tempest Aces of WW2'  and 'Tempest Squadrons of the RAF') and have often wished I'd have got your Vol 3 on the 2nd

TAF before they disappeared (was hoping for a reprint one day).

Thanks very much also for 'doing' the log and coming up with the same conclusions, much appreciated.

 

Another google search has brought up another reference to 'R' being EJ648, which was in 'Aces High' by Christopher Shores and Chris Williams (you get mentioned in the acknowledgements), under 'Hibbert'.

Sources aren't listed but it says Hibbert got a 109 in 'R' (EJ648) on 17th Dec 1944. It also lists his Ju88 as being whilst in 'W' (EJ771) on 21st Feb 1945.

 

Those two machines were the ones I was particularly interested in (W and R).

 

I've delved back as far as Oct 1944 to see when EJ714 would have stopped being the previous 'W' (with the 'JJ's positioned nose side of the roundel on the starboard side in that photo).

That machine flew to Volkel on the 11th Oct and doesn't appear in the sqn ORB after that date (there's the IWM photo of it taxiing at Volkel CL1452, with the workers in front of it, still coded 'W' but the wing obscures the 'JJ' area. The spinner is a lighter shade than black in this but darker than sky. Another large photo in 'Typhoon and Tempest at War' by Reed and Beamont - pages 146 and 147 - shows a very similar aircraft with the same foreground and workers (same aircraft??) and I can't make out any JJ where it should be on this).

 

EJ771 arrived at Volkel on the next day (12th Oct) from Manston listed as a 'new' aircraft in the ORB so was well timed to get coded 'W'.

 

I've had a fairly good search but as you say I can't find many photos at all of that first part of the year.  

Am I correct in thinking that the last shot seen with the JJs on the nose side of the roundel (stbd side) is that one of EJ714?

 

The only photo I have seen so far of a 274 machine in this period is the one credited to Hibbert in January from your books with them taxiing in the snow at Volkel (which I like very much but no codes are visible).

 

Looking at how the JJs eventually switched to the 'normal' side of the roundel and looking at how 486 Sqn did the same, I'm hoping that they might have switched them earlier in the year, rather than later (I know it's just hoping), perhaps

when either swapping for a replacement aircraft (such as replacing the old EJ714 'W') or having a new one arrive (such as EJ771 in Oct) or on the 3rd Jan markings change perhaps?

 

EJ648 was there throughout from beginning Oct to Feb 25th when it gets flown by Spence and then no longer appears in the ORB.

It seems to have been coded 'R' as far back as December when Hibbert got his 109 and so should still have been when Fairbanks got his Doras with it on 22nd Feb. It's just as you say knowing what side the JJs were on.

 

The replacement 'W' for the one Spence was shot down in on the 28th Feb, would presumably have been 'Clostermanns' EJ893 which is first seen in the ORB with Hibbert doing a cannon test on 5th March?

 

Thanks very much again for all your help with this, anyway, much appreciated. 

 

Cheers Bob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris Thomas]

Well Bob ... at the last count I had identified 101 Tempests operated by 274 Sqn and I have codes for about 60%, mostly by the methods that you have used. One way of adding value is to compare them with the relevant Form 78 movement cards (available on microfilm at Hendon).  If you do that for the two aircraft you are researching and others I have with the same codes, you get the following.

 

JJ-R  EJ648 10 Aug 44 to 1 Mar 45 (reported at 151 RU)

          EJ876 12 Mar 45 to 14 Mar 45 (engine fire F/O Trayhurn b/o)

          SN135 14 Mar 45 to 7 Sep 45 (renumbered 174 Sqn)

 

JJ-W  EJ714 28 Sep 44 to 6 Oct 44 (to 419RSU Cat Ac)

           EJ771 12 Oct 45 to 28 Feb 45 (F/O Spence PoW)

           EJ893  3 Mar 45 to 19 Apr 45 (to 420 RSU Cat Ac, then to Hawker for repair)

           EJ555  28 Apr 45 to 7 Sep 45 (renumbered 174 Sqn)

 

Bearing in mind that the dates with units are not always the date the aircraft arrived but the date first reported on a strength return, those sequences seem quite complete, although there may have been an earlier W in Aug/Sep 44.

 

The photo of W-JJ landing at Volkel on 11 Oct 44 was its delivery from 420 RSU to its new unit, 486 Sqn, but still wearing 274's letters.  It is the latest photo of the 'back to front' codes I have seen.  For want of a better theory, I would suggest codes were painted like that with their initial equipment and up to leaving the UK and after that replacements were (maybe) painted in the more conventional way.

 

The only points where I would differ with your list is for A EJ772 (which I believe was NV772) and G EJ989 (NV989).  I think these were typos in the ORB (not an uncommon error).

 

Also NV697 was probably never G.  I have multiple tie-ups from other logs which show it as JJ-D in Feb 45 the, after a week at 419 RSU it came back as JJ-K in March and April 45.

 

I get the distinct feeling it is just you and me following this thread now, Bob.  Bob.  Bob?

[gingerbob]

Well, another Bob has read with interest- 101 on a fairly short-term use- wow!

 

And since I'm here, Chris had commented that the ORBs sometimes get the serial wrong.  I saw a case of that just the other day with Spitfires- serial number such and such lost on a mission (in unequivocal circumstances) and yet going on to fly for the next month!  "Fighter Command Losses" had a different serial number for the loss, which (if I remember at the remove of a few days) was not mentioned at all in the ORB, but the aircraft's individual record agreed neatly.  I know the books were filled in from other records by some chap bored with the duty, but you'd think somebody might have noticed something amiss!

 

bob

[bobsyouruncle]

Hi again, yes, I'm still here (just couldn't answer as was on night shift on the ambulances - just got up now for another session tonight).

 

Brilliant.

 

Thanks very much for that, Chris, very much appreciated. Sounds like you've got 274 squadron all sorted out then, more or less.

 

Gingerbob, yes I know what you mean and errors do have that habit of creeping in.

 

I'm most probably going to do JJ-'R' I think then and aim for a 'Jan-February 45' look and sit it on a snowy base, hopefully.

(perhaps with the 'erk' sat on the wing to imitate that Hibbert shot in your book, Chris).

 

I'll keep my eyes open in case any more photos turn up anywhere showing the 'JJ' coding placements on the stbd sides in that time slot.

 

Incidentally, in the famous shot of the pair taking off from Kluis on the Sommerfield matting, has anyone ever worked out if the one on the right is 'R', a 'B' or a 'P'?

 

Chris, please let us know if a 2nd TAF series reprint happens will you? (as I missed out on two).

 

Very big thanks again.

 

Bob.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bobsyouruncle]

Hi anyone who might be interested in this again,

Just a quick addition to this thread regarding the positioning of the 'JJ' codes on the starboard side of the aircraft.

In my last post, I was more inclined to think that it'd be 'possibly more likely' (not committing here) that the 274 sqn Tempests had switched to having the 'JJ's tail side of the roundel on the starboard side (as opposed to the earlier way with it arranged nose side of the roundel - as on W-JJ EJ714 in the Oct '44 photo) by late January/February.

 

Chris, are you still there? If you are, you know how I was wondering if that was one of the last photos of them with the codes that way around?...

I since came across this shot (trying to find clues in the backgrounds of other photos) courtesy of the Imperial War Museum online photo collection, see IWM (MH 27463) linked to here, as it is a free to share for non-commercial purposes:-

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205094385

As you can see, you can enlarge this one with the 'plus' sign in the corner and on the right is a 274 sqn machine with the 'JJ' codes clearly positioned forward of the roundel.

There's no date given for this photo but it does say the Typhoon was 'wrecked on return to base' 22nd February 1945, making it at least after that date. A real shame that the other code letter's obscured by the cannon access doors hanging down like that (I wonder if there was a sequence of shots taken).

 

I'm now wondering just how many photo examples exist showing the other ('standard way around') arrangement of the code on the starboard sides before the war's end?

I guess it would make sense to just change the parts of the aircraft with paint that you have to when the January orders came in (busy enough already)?

As you intimated Chris, I'm guessing again that the original aircraft would leave the codes the original way around (and it would 'probably' only revert when a replacement comes in)?

 

I also found the thread Chris, where you say that there are only confirmed codes in this 'earlier' style on W-JJ, G-JJ and J-JJ. I've still not found the J-JJ shot, despite searching. 

G-JJ was still flying on 26th Jan 1945 so that would fit into the timeframe I was after as a possible model subject.

I'm now thinking JJ-R would be more likely to be R-JJ, starboard side.

 

 

Cheers Bob.

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by bobsyouruncle
Typing errors and better phrasing

[Chris Thomas]

Hello Bob

I've looked through all the 274 Sqn Tempest photos I can find and, other than the background shot/crashed Typhoon photo, have found none which show the starboard side in the Jan45 to VE-day period! This is, I believe, Sod's Law.

 

The Typhoon photo is only a single shot in the IWM collection; it was taken on 22 Feb 45.  For several years I had 3 other shots of the same crash from the pilot's album, which remained unidentified (other than as XP-P) until the IWM photo popped up in the IWM and '620 was visible on the bent rear fuselage panel.  This later proved to be R7620 - the oldest Typhoon to fly in the 2nd TAF, having started service life as US-G of 56 Sqn in January 1942. But I digress.  

 

In the background of one of the pilot's photo was a fuller view, albeit none too clear, of the JJ Tempest.  Just a vertical stroke can be seen of the individual letter, so J or L (I does not seem to have been used by 274 at this time); most probably L judging by the distance of the vertical stroke from the roundel.  Unfortunately I do not have a serial for 'L' at that time (or J) but I do know there were at least three Tempest marked JJ-L before that, the last, EJ578 suffering an u/c collapse on 14 January.  So any new "L' must have been painted by the phantom dyslexic code painter; yes,  he was still at it in late January 1945!

 

However, as you are keen on EJ648 which had been with 274 since early Tempest days (August 44) I think the foregoing is somewhat academic. I'm sure you are correct in surmising that the unit would not bother to alter code positions. When national marking changes etc were promulgated on 2 January 1945, it took until 5 February to complete the work. At Volkel there was appalling weather and no hangars! 

 

Starboard side R-JJ then ... go for it!

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[bobsyouruncle]

Hi Chris, many thanks for taking the time and trouble to look through your photos for this.

Yes, as you say, must just be one of those things that every photographer chose to shoot the left side of the aircraft at the time.

Interesting information about the Typhoon photos too and what you say about the distance of the vertical stroke from the roundel (similar sounding to the 'W' positioning on EJ714 - perhaps slightly less so on 'G'); another 'trait' of your

'phantom dyslexic painter'?

 

Thanks very much for all the help on this, especially with the information that '648' went right back to August with the Squadron.

Yes R-JJ it shall be then. Fascinating to even just skim the surface of this subject.

 

Big thanks again, much appreciated.

Bob.