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Hurricane Mk V prop


72modeler

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Thinking about doing a 1/72  conversion to make one of the three Mk V's built, KZ193. I have a resin armored radiator, but was wondering if the 4-bladed Rotol prop used on the Mk V's was the same diameter and blade shape as the one fitted to the 2-stage Merlin Spitfires?. It looks to be the same to me, but I would appreciate the group's input. IMHO, it's a very nasty-looking beast!  (Yes, I know AZ Models does a Mk V in the scale, but I already have numerous Mk 1 and II kits from Airfix/Hasegawa already as well as a couple of resin armored radiators, and I don't see Airfix doing a Mk IV or V.)

 

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/Swindelle/10222.htm

 

Mike

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Hi  Mike

 

there was a drive to go  for  a  commonalty of spares between the Hurricane and Spitfire, but the Hurricane nose ring is smaller than the Spitfire,  though in 72nd  this may not be much of an issue,  though given the 4 blade prop comes bundled  with the AZ kit Mk.IV,  you may just want to ask  for one of those.

 

One point this has reminded me of  (and forgot to post up) i that the Mk.V has a bulge in the upperwing,look slightly to the  left of  the  roundel,which is not on the Mk.IV,  and I have never seen mentioned anywhere.  

 

 

7169778521_e56f7ba8c4_o.jpgHawker  Hurricane. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

hurr4-4.jpg

 

here's a couple of better shots  of the  blade prop

 

hurr4-6.jpg

 

hurr4-7.jpg

 

it looks a lot like a standard 4 blade Spitfire unit.

 

EDIT

Quote

large_000000.jpg?action=e&cat=photograph
AIRCRAFT OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE: HAWKER HURRICANE.. © IWM (ZZZ 13586D)IWM Non Commercial Licence

 

Hurricane Mark IVD, (sic)  KZ193, fitted with two 40mm Vickers Type 'S' guns and a Vokes tropical filter, on the ground. This aircraft was temporarily converted to Mark V standard in March 1943, by fitting a Rolls-Royce Merlin 32 engine driving a four-bladed propeller, for performance trials at Brooklands and Boscombe Down. Having reverted to Mark IV status in July 1943, KZ193, was issued to No. 164 Squadron RAF at Warmwell, Dorset, who employed it on anti-shipping strikes.

 

and 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205059400

 

 

there are some  photos of the Mk.IV wing panelling in this thread, which is not widely known, not in any of "the books" AFAIK

HTH

T

 PS KX405 was the other Mk.V,  the mystery bulge is better seen here, as well as the bulge behind the spinner, which maybe to do  with Merlin 32

Hawker-Hurricane-MkV-Trop-RAF-KX405-01.j

also the spinner does look slightly too big for the nose ring, suggesting the use of a Spitfire unit.

The reversed upper colours are of note, this usually shows up  on Desert finished planes, and the lack of a Sky band is of note, though the FJ-G in this shot has reversed uppers

Hurricane-MkIId-RAF-164Sqn-FJM-KX413-and

 

glad this came up, forgot all about it posting this up :rolleyes: 

 

PPS

another of KX405

hawker.hurricane.mk.v.large.jpg

 

and a shot of the other side of KZ193, with no bulge

hawker.hurricane.mk.v.kz1--.jpg

Edited by Troy Smith
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22 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 PS KX405 was the other Mk.V,  the mystery bulge is better seen here, as well as the bulge behind the spinner, which maybe to do  with Merlin 32

Hawker-Hurricane-MkV-Trop-RAF-KX405-01.j

 

 

Slightly off-topic but would the bulge cover a Coffman starter?

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Troy, Beard,  and Wooksta,

 

Thanks for the reply and the photos, I had all but two saved already. Funny, but I never really noticed the upper wing bulges until you pointed them out, and I bet I have looked at those photos dozens of times without them registering. Just one reason why it's always a good idea to run things by a 2nd set of eyes  before committing to a build. I'm guessing that bulge behind the spinner on the RH side is for the Coffman starter? It sure  does look like  a Spitfire Rotol prop and spinner was fitted to the V, especially that late in the war and with production coming to an end- why waste the time and money on new tooling? Now I am wondering just what the purpose of that blister on the upper wing was for...only thing I can think of it something associated with the cannon mechanism or ammo feed; but if so, why isn't it on the Mk IID and IV?

 

IIRC, NL255 was one of  the other Mk V's completed. I think two of the three  were converted Mk IV's and one  was a converted IID.

 

Hated to buy an AZ kit just for the prop and spinner, as that's not the kit I plan to use for the conversion, and I already have several resin 4-bladed Rotols and Spitfire spinners in the spares bin. Of course, the Laws of Modelling being what they are, as soon as I start on this project, somebody will come out with a new-tool, state of the art release!

 

Once again, thank you both for the rapid response!

 

Mike

Edited by 72modeler
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Mike, I think you may have meant that the other Mk V prototype was NL255. It might be worth noting too that KX405 might have been alone in having the bulge on the right side of the nose, it doesn't seem to feature in this shot of KZ193. I'm impressed at the depth of radiator that shows & wonder if its deeper than in the IVs or whether it is armour that gives that impression.

Steve.

Edited by stevehnz
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52 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

Mike, I think you may have meabt that the other Mk V prototype was NL255. It might be worth noting too that KX405 might have been alone in having the bulge on the right side of the nose, it doesn't seem to feature in this shot of KZ193. I'm impressed at the depth of radiator that shows & wonder if its deeper than in the IVs or whether it is armour that gives that impression.

Steve.

Yep- my typo! Fingers are faster than the brain, I fear! Thanks!. I did find out that KX405 was the Mk V prototype, and KZ193 and NL255 were the only two other Mk V's built. I haven't found a photo of either of them that shows whether or not they had the bulge behind the spinner on the RH side like KX405. Until I find evidence to the contrary, I think I will add that bulge, as it is certainly something different. Maybe it has something to do with the uprated Merlin 32 and having to relocate some equipment underneath the cowling- that's as far as my thinking takes me. In my search for the serials, I found this record, which might be useful to Hurricane lovers.

 

Mike

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

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3 hours ago, Beard said:

 

Slightly off-topic but would the bulge cover a Coffman starter?

don't know Simon, wiki has this

Quote

A "low altitude" version of Merlin with cropped supercharger impellers for increased power at lower altitudes, as per the Merlin XXX; fitted with a Coffman engine starter; used mainly in Fleet Air Arm aircraft.[9] First production Merlin 32 delivered 17 June 1942.[6]

 

so possibly, sort of thing Graham Boak might know...

 

3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Troy, Beard,  and Wooksta,

 

Thanks for the reply and the photos, I had all but two saved already. Funny, but I never really noticed the upper wing bulges until you pointed them out, and I bet I have looked at those photos dozens of times without them registering. Just one reason why it's always a good idea to run things by a 2nd set of eyes  before committing to a build. I'm guessing that bulge behind the spinner on the RH side is for the Coffman starter? It sure  does look like  a Spitfire Rotol prop and spinner was fitted to the V, especially that late in the war and with production coming to an end- why waste the time and money on new tooling? Now I am wondering just what the purpose of that blister on the upper wing was for...only thing I can think of it something associated with the cannon mechanism or ammo feed; but if so, why isn't it on the Mk IID and IV?

 

IIRC, NL255 was one of  the other Mk V's completed. I think two of the three  were converted Mk IV's and one  was a converted IID.

 

Hated to buy an AZ kit just for the prop and spinner, as that's not the kit I plan to use for the conversion, and I already have several resin 4-bladed Rotols and Spitfire spinners in the spares bin. Of course, the Laws of Modelling being what they are, as soon as I start on this project, somebody will come out with a new-tool, state of the art release!

 

Once again, thank you both for the rapid response!

 

Mike

Hi Mike

I just use a Spitfire unit.   What base kit are you planning on using, the AZ kit is one of the better 72nd Hurricanes.  I got one as Hannants were selling them cheap.

The bulges are a puzzle, as the IID and IV don't have them,  and I only spotted them by chance when I  saw the starboard side shot of KX405 where it's quite noticeable.

one possibility is plans to use the Rolls Royce B-H 40mm gun instead of the Vickers S?  

http://alternathistory.com/files/users/user32336/ Роллс-Ройс Тип BH.jpg

from

http://alternathistory.com/britanskaya-40-mm-avtomaticheskaya-pushka-rolls-royce-bdvn

Yet more unanswered Hurricane questions!

 

3 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Mike, I think you may have meabt that the other Mk V prototype was NL255. It might be worth noting too that KX405 might have been alone in having the bulge on the right side of the nose, it doesn't seem to feature in this shot of KZ193. I'm impressed at the depth of radiator that shows & wonder if its deeper than in the IVs or whether it is armour that gives that impression.

Steve.

 

Steve, i think that's just the armour, maybe the Merlin 32 needed greater cooling, or it was considered worth planning for as the Mk.V was most likely to be deployed in the tropics.

 

cheers

T

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Whew- that's a lot to digest! My head is still spinning from the Me-262b gear door discussion! Thank you all for your input and information. So, the AZ Hurricanes are better than the Hasegawa kits? (I know all about the cowling/nose issues!)  Or do we wait for Airfix to get around to doing a IIC and IID?

 

Mike

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2 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Airfix to get around to doing a IIC

Mike

They did, this one. it goes together quite well but just looks wrong once its done, a bulky nose, short tail feathers, panel lines in the wrong places & too small prop are only some of the short comings with it. Go for the AZ one imho.

Steve.

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Hi Mike

 

the only  72nd hase kit i  have is the Mk.I,  I don't think  the nose is a big issue,  but the spinner on on some Mk.II hase kits is awful.

 

sadly from my the 72nd kits I have they all have failings, usually fabric issues (Revell, Academy) which means either a lot of work or living with the problems, the hase kit has it over done, he best fabric seems to be the old Heller IIc,  this has too broad wings, and a narrow nose, but these are fixable.

 

the AZ/Legato are maybe the best in overall shape in 72nd at the moment,  it's late here and if i start pulling out kits now .... I'll have a look tomorrow.  

 

I know you are in TX, but Hannants have all the AZ/Legato IV/V kits on offer

View Photo AZ Model AZM73005 1:72 Hawker Hurricane Mk.IV with rockets WAS £18.37. TEMPORARILY UNDER HALF PRICE!!! Aircraft kits (injection) Special Offers £8.99 - In Stock 
20+
 
View Photo AZ Model AZM73006 1:72 Hawker Hurricane Mk.IV with 40mm guns WAS £18.37. TEMPORARILY UNDER HALF PRICE!!! Aircraft kits (injection) Special Offers £8.99 - In Stock 
20+
 
View Photo AZ Model AZM73025 1:72 Hawker Hurricane Mk.V WAS £18.37. TEMPORARILY UNDER HALF PRICE!!! Aircraft kits (injection) Special Offers £8.99 - In Stock 
20+
 
View Photo AZ Model AZM73026 1:72 Hawker Hurricane Mk.IV WAS £18.37. TEMPORARILY UNDER HALF PRICE!!! Aircraft kits (injection) Special Offers £8.99 - In Stock 
20+
 

 

you can take the  20% tax (VAT)  off these are you are  outside the  EU, so even with postage they maybe worth getting?  AFAIK they are the same kit, so if you  get a IV youget some useful decals and   the 4 blade prop, the rockets are resin IIRC.

pics/review here

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/reviews/kits/azl7212reviewmd_1.htm

 

The Airfix IIc is a spot on match to drawings in a couple of respected Hurricane books, shame the drawings are blinkin' awful!!!

 

here's the story as to why  so  many Hurricane kits and plans are wrong

35568750533_1f3269b366_o.jpgHurricaneBentleynotescrop_zpsc6a2675f by losethekibble, on Flickr

HurricaneBentleynotescrop_zpsc6a2675f.jp

 

 

HTH

T

 

 

Edited by Troy Smith
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Reference to Spitfire props fitting Hurricanes, can any one remember the BoB flight using a four blade prop on a Hurricane at the end of the seventies for a period?  I have a photo of it at Manston somewhere and would be glad to post it if I could! !

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5 hours ago, Britman said:

Reference to Spitfire props fitting Hurricanes, can any one remember the BoB flight using a four blade prop on a Hurricane at the end of the seventies for a period?  I have a photo of it at Manston somewhere and would be glad to post it if I could! !

 

A link to one:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK-Air-Force/Hawker-Hurricane-Mk2C/1454370?qsp=eJwljTEOwjAQBP%2BydRoiCuQOeAAUfOB0d4ojILbORsSK8ncuoRvNrnYXcJqqzvXRsiKgKBlHdMhk9C4IC57avsnEGfFjNjJNuhViqulKVYdkDaE/dSjJ6sUZ4vrMrLmq4O9vJmpbpIX3%2BcHvDg5q953RH93LWPKLtg0mE6zrD58CNfw%3D

 

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in the linked photo, it can be  seen the unit fitted is a Spitfire one, as it's larger than the Hurricane nose ring.

 

I'll link this up again as it illustrates other Spitfire units fitted to Hurricanes

 

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Francis K. Mason wrote in his book "The Hawker Hurricane", Mk. V used a Rotol 4-blade R/5/4S/4 prop of 10 ft. 9 in. diameter. That is not exactly the same as 4-blade props of Spitfires, but of the same diameter.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

 

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Troy and Junchan,

 

Thanks for the posts! I guess I will have to compare the shape of my various 4-blade Rotol Spitfire props to the Mk V photos to see what to do to make an accurate prop for a Mk V. Troy, I have the Hasegawa Mk 1b, late Mk 1b, IIC, and IID boxings, as well as two different forum discussions on the Hasegawa Mk1 and Mk II kits which I have saved. I know the wheel bays, fuselage stringers, and the one LH access panel, IIRC, need correcting, but they're nice kits until something better comes along. I was aware of the AZ Hurri's, but was hoping to see sprue shots or a review before buying, as their releases are up and down, so far as quality is concerned. I do order from the Big H every month, so I guess I will snag one of the AZ  Mk V's and compare it to my Hasegawa kits. 

 

Junchan- thanks for your input- that's quite a photo collection you have on your site! As soon as I get time to figure out how, I hope to be able to post photos...I'm getting back to building something, as it's been over 20 years since I have finished a model- a Matchbox Siskin IIIa! (Why is it I always seem to get fired up to do an airplane that there is no kit/markings for?) It's a sickness, I tell ya!

 

Mike

 

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16 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Troy and Junchan,

 

Thanks for the posts! I guess I will have to compare the shape of my various 4-blade Rotol Spitfire props to the Mk V photos to see what to do to make an accurate prop for a Mk V. Troy, I have the Hasegawa Mk 1b, late Mk 1b, IIC, and IID boxings, as well as two different forum discussions on the Hasegawa Mk1 and Mk II kits which I have saved. I know the wheel bays, fuselage stringers, and the one LH access panel, IIRC, need correcting, but they're nice kits until something better comes along. I was aware of the AZ Hurri's, but was hoping to see sprue shots or a review before buying, as their releases are up and down, so far as quality is concerned. I do order from the Big H every month, so I guess I will snag one of the AZ  Mk V's and compare it to my Hasegawa kits. 

 

Mike

 

 

Hi Mike

 

assume lost in an info blur, but  I posted this

Quote

 

which has pretty detailed sprue shots,  and there have been a couple of builds on here,  

eg 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234996899-north-africa-mkiid-finished/

 

Looks like it needs careful fettling to get the best out  it, not dug mine out  as  yet,  but If you already order  from Hannants I don't think you would be horribly disappointed with one.

cheers

T

 

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9 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Hi Mike

 

assume lost in an info blur, but  I posted this

 

which has pretty detailed sprue shots,  and there have been a couple of builds on here,  

eg 

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234996899-north-africa-mkiid-finished/

 

Looks like it needs careful fettling to get the best out  it, not dug mine out  as  yet,  but If you already order  from Hannants I don't think you would be horribly disappointed with one.

cheers

T

 

Troy,

 

Have just  ordered an AZ Mk V from H (If it's a pig, I'm swimming across the pond and looking for you!) Looks like from the links you supplied that the wheel bay is going to need reworking just like the Hasegawa one. I do have resin wheel bay sets, so will use one for a pattern and scratchbuild/modify the kit bays- I have too many Hurri's Id like to model to be able to afford that many sets! Sure glad Airfix seems to be able to get wheel bays right, as a lot of  the other kitmakers don't. All the more reason for Airfix to do IIc/IId/IV/V variants, as it would take very little engineering to do all four, not to mention the appropriate Sea Hurricanes!

 

Cheers!

Mike

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2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Troy,

 

Have just  ordered an AZ Mk V from H (If it's a pig, I'm swimming across the pond and looking for you!) Looks like from the links you supplied that the wheel bay is going to need reworking just like the Hasegawa one. I do have resin wheel bay sets, so will use one for a pattern and scratchbuild/modify the kit bays- I have too many Hurri's Id like to model to be able to afford that many sets! Sure glad Airfix seems to be able to get wheel bays right, as a lot of  the other kitmakers don't. All the more reason for Airfix to do IIc/IId/IV/V variants, as it would take very little engineering to do all four, not to mention the appropriate Sea Hurricanes!

 

Cheers!

Mike

 

sadly this is not true,  the Airfix fabric wing has not been tooled to make  use of some common sprues, and then add on new wings/fuselages.  It  wasn't even tooled up to add a metal wing Mk.I

As a dedicated Hurricane anorak, the Airfix fabric mk.I is a bit of a  dissapointment, especially as they scaled it up to 1/48th,  I'm annoyed I didn't really go over the 72nd fabric wing and point out it's  failing to Airfix... I'd have gone over personally if  knew then what i know now! 

 

So unless you wanted to go  down the Hasegawa 1/48th route, which went for 2 basic  wings types B  and C,  and had separate noses/underwing fairings, which not ideal, was a decent stab at getting most variants with least amount of moulds.

The AZ kit is the only one I  know of that has done a IId wing,  non-one has ever done a Mk .IV  wing as shown in the Belgrade museum Mk.IV...

the only Mk.IV in the UK is  hanging up in Birmingham, in fake BoB markings....

 

Ironically, the best option would be if Trumpeter scaled down their 1/24th kit, which is really really well shaped overall,  why they haven't shrunk it to 48th and 72nd is beyond me!

 

If the kits a pig you  can come  and find  me,  I'll just  talk  you to death ;)

 

if you have a few hurricanes, you could just   make or, even 'clone' an accurate  wheel well bay and cast up your own,  it's not that hard.

 

HTH

 

 

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Hi Mike

 

after all this I dug out my AZ  Mk.IV/V,  it's a bit rough, but with some careful scraping and filing it can be got to fit very well,  the rear wing/fuselage joint needs a lot  of care.

the lower wing  could do with a load of thinning,  and the aileron joins don't appear to line up.

the review mentions  lack of landing lights, but these were not always fitted,  check your references.

 

Compared to  the Bentley plans,  it's match well, the underfuselage strake looks a little short, and the doghouse is a touch high.

 

the mould line shown in the linked review ie easy to scrape off with some careful scalpel use

 

I  used dimensions from Peter Cooke's Hurricane Veracity article,  and the cowl is near as dammit bang on, using some vernier calipers.

 

the spinner join looks to be a PITA, but overall it's decent.   

 

HTH

T

 

 

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  • 1 year later...
On ‎1‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 3:35 PM, stevehnz said:

in this shot of KZ193. I'm impressed at the depth of radiator that shows & wonder if its deeper than in the IVs or whether it is armour that gives that impression.

Steve,

 

I was re-reading this topic before beginning my build, and I wanted to reply to your comment regarding a deeper radiator on the Mk V versus the Mk IV. I have looked at just about every Mk V photo I could find, and comparing them to Mk IV photos, it does seem to me that the radiator fitted to the Mk V's was deeper, even taking into account the armor plate was a bolt-on affair that fit around the radiator fairing like a strap or saddle. In addition, my AZ Models Mk V kit comes with two armored resin radiators, with one being noticeably deeper than the other- I'm guessing the Mk V boxing  has bits common to their Mk IV kit, which I don't have, but IIRC, the prop. spinner, and radiator would be the only external differences...not counting that blasted blister on the upper wing near the fuselage! I would hazard a guess that the uprated Merlin fitted to the Mk V's required increased cooling capacity, thus a larger radiator. Where's @Troy Smith when you really need him!

Mike

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1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

Where's @Troy Smith when you really need him!

 

A good question Mike,  which I don't know the answer.   Probably use the Mk.I eyeball and take it from there.    I only have the Mk.IV boxing, which has the 4 blade prop, didn't know about the two radiators

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

uprated Merlin fitted to the Mk V's required increased cooling capacity, thus a larger radiator.

 

AFAIK, the engine planned was the Merlin 32, which was a optimised for low level use, hence it being fitted to Seafire.

 

@Graham Boak maybe able to add some more on this.

 

HTH

 

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Both my AZ Hurricane IID and IV have a choice of resin radiators. One has an oval front, the other a rectangular one. I couldnt be bothered to glue them together and used a Freightdog one.

Edited by Beard
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