Colours of HMAS Canberra´s Supermarine Walrus Aug 1942

[Magpie22]

3 hours ago, mhaselden said:

I did find this other pic which may be of interest.  It's Pinterest (so take it with a huge dose of salt) and it's not definitely tied to HMAS Canberra (ie it could be HMAS Australia).  However, I share it here for camouflage and markings info:

 

 

Mark,

Note that this is a Seagull V, not a Walrus, but I expect that you spotted that already. It was therefore camouflaged according to RAAF orders in Australia. Many Walrus served without being re-painted or only partially so.

 

As stated by Alan, it is indeed A2-9, and was embarked on HMAS Canberra, Sydney, Hobart and Manoora. It was on the first two in 1938 / 1939 prior to camouflage being applied.

 

In August 1939 it went to No. 2AD for a major overhaul, not emerging again until September 1940 when it went to the Seaplane training Flight at Rathmines. It was probably camouflaged as part of that major. Orders at that time called for Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey on the upper surfaces of the top wing and the top of fuselage. The upper surface of the lower wing were to be Dark Sea grey and Light Slate Grey.  All under surfaces were to be Sky Grey. The dividing line between upper and lower camouflage was halfway down the fuselage, as seen in the photo. Fuselage roundels were to be Type M3, Red/White/Blue/Yellow, (1:3:5:7), and Type M2, R/W/B, (1:3:5), on top of the upper wing and under the lower wing. The Seagull V was the only RAAF aircraft at that time required to carry the M4 fin flash, (equal width R/W/B stripes), presumably to bring it into alignment with the Walrus aircraft serving on Australian and British ships in the area. It is interesting to note that the RAAF did not have copies of A.D. 1140 at that time and the pattern specified for the Seagull V was A.D.1165, that specified for twin-engined biplanes (flying boats).

 

After emerging from No. 2 AD it went to the Seaplane Training Flight at Rathmines. In April 1941, it was embarked aboard HMAS Hobart. I am unsure as to how long it was aboard, but that is possibly when the photo was taken. Certainly, she was back at Rathmines with No. 9 Sqn by July. In September she embarked aboard HMAS Manoora at Port Moresby. She dis-embarked in mid November 1941 and did not serve on a ship after that.

 

Note that the Yellow surround to the fuselage roundel on the Seagull V / Walrus aircraft was applied from the time camouflage was first applied to them by the RAAF in 1940. It was retained until August 1942. The White / Dull Blue roundels and Sky Blue under surfaces, with a low upper/lower demarcation were also introduced at this time.

 

Cheers,

Magpie22

Edited December 30, 2016 by Magpie22

[Magpie22]

Quote:

Mark:  I'd suggest we're looking at a photo taken using panchromatic film. "

Ed: "- a pan-rendered yellow is usually dark"

 

Pan film? looks like Ortho film without a lens filter to me.

 

A print made from an Ortho film renders dark blue as a very light grey and red as as a dark grey.

A print made from a Pan film renders the blue as a darker shade of grey than than the red.

 

Prints made from Pan film render yellow as a light grey, whereas prints made from Ortho film render yellow as a darker grey. This is consistent with the photo having been taken using Ortho film.

 

There may be a Yellow surround to the roundel, or it may be over-painted.   The RAAF required a yellow surround to fuselage roundels on Seagull / Walrus types from when camouflage was introduced in 1940. The order dropping the Yellow surround was not issued until the end of July 1942, although units would have received notification about two weeks earlier. The Red was dropped from the upper wing roundel at this time but it was retained in the fuselage and under wing roundels until November.

 

A R/W/B roundel without Yellow surround would date the pic as Aug to Nov 1942. A R/W/B/Y roundel would date it as any time from 1940 to Aug 1942. In that time period, HMAS Canberra carried at least six different Walrus aircraft, L2318, L2321, L2322, L2293, W2768, and P5715. The photo is undated so it could be of any of those, if the roundel has a yellow surround. On the other hand, if the Yellow surround has been over-painted, the photo can only have been taken after July 1942, and, accepting that it is on Canberra, it must be of P5715! Of course, we then have to work out how it was taken after the ship had sailed and the negative somehow returned to Australia, before the ship was lost on 8 August.

 

The last Walrus on HMAS Canberra was P5715. It was one of eight delivered, ex FAA, to QANTAS at Rose Bay in April / May 1942. After erection it went to No. 9 Sqn at Rathmines in early June, and then embarked on HMAS Canberra in mid June. It was RAAF policy to not repaint aircraft received from over seas if they were in good condition, so it is highly unlikely that P5715 was repainted in any way. It probably even retained the Red in the upper wing roundels, but this may have been over-painted in White, (and the Yellow of the fuselage roundel), before the ship sailed from Brisbane.

 

In early 1940, the 5 colour, counter-shaded, scheme was abandoned in GB, so it is unlikely that P5715 carried that scheme. FWIW, I think that she was probably finished in British camouflage of Extra Dark Sea Grey / Dark Slate Grey / Sky. She also probably carried standard RAF roundels and fin flash, although it is possible that the upper-wing roundel had the Red center over-painted with White at some stage after the ship sailed.

 

Magpie22

Edited December 30, 2016 by Magpie22

[ClaudioN]

2 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

 

Quote

may see a hint of yellow

Ahhh,,, the modeller's friend - The Eye of Faith    (:>)

 

... and let's not forget the Colour Filters...

 

After reading Air Ministry Orders and Admiralty Fleet Orders, a modeller's colour perception can be substantially altered. 

[Ed Russell]

On 29/12/2016 at 7:13 PM, Vladi said:

Hello, I am now building HMAS Canberra in 1/700.......The regular RAF Temperate Sea Scheme (Extra Dark Slate Grey / Dark Slate Grey / Sky) seems to be an obvious guess........

So, cutting through the mostly irrelevant guff that has come up, it appears that you have answered your own question correctly at the start.

In 1/700 scale it's nice to know you don't have to put a serial on it. (:>)

Given its anonymity it's not much of an interesting subject for a larger scale model.

[Nick Millman]

FWIW iro Australian Walrus CAFO's appear to have ruled out shadow-shading around the end of 1940. CAFO 1719 of 26.9.1940 which I reproduced in another thread somewhere had the S.I.E scheme crossed out for biplanes and 'Temperate Sea' hand written in. CAFO 1718 of the same date has operational naval aircraft upper surfaces in "Light and dark greys" with a note that it should include the side surfaces of fuselage, fin and rudder, and under surfaces in "Duck-egg blue".

 

CAFO 750 of 16 April 1942 is shown below. Note "Camouflage consists of two colours"

 

Nick

 

  

[Junchan]

The photo of the AWM collection I have posted was apparently taken using orthochromatic, not panchromatic film. Orthochromatic film is not sensitive to long length light wave i.e. red and yellow, so yellow and red are reproduced darker than blue.

Here's an example of Ortho picture of an early Hurricane.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[Graham Boak]

The other point about the Hurricane photo is the lack of contrast between the Dark Green and the Dark Earth, which is normal on ortho film.  There are photos of aircraft in TSS. taken on ortho film, that show much greater contrast between the two colours, unlike the one of the Walrus.  However this also seems to be a function of the (unknown) filter, if any.

[Garry c]

The final line in CAFO 750 reads: "The camouflage colours of (b) and (c) are to extend downwards to cover completely both sides of the fuselage."

Could this explain the pattern on the bottom of the hull?

 

Garry c

[Magpie22]

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The other point about the Hurricane photo is the lack of contrast between the Dark Green and the Dark Earth, which is normal on ortho film.  There are photos of aircraft in TSS. taken on ortho film, that show much greater contrast between the two colours, unlike the one of the Walrus.  However this also seems to be a function of the (unknown) filter, if any.

 

The lack of contrast between brown and green is responsible for many errors in interpreting the colours on RAAF aircraft. Quite often what is an Earth brown / Foliage green pattern is often misinterpreted as overall Foliage Green. I've lost cont of the number of Boomerangs I've seen incorrectly illustrated.

 

Many photographers generally added a Red/Yellow filter to the front of their lenses to darken the shade of grey for the sky in prints and thus render clouds visible. This of course also darkened the blue in roundels, tricking many into thinking a Pan film, not an Ortho film had been used.

 

Ah, the joys of trying to interpret colours from monochrome films and prints.

 

Magpie22

[tonyot]

Sorry,....but I`ve been advised to delete this post!

Edited December 31, 2016 by tonyot

[Seahawk]

Deleted.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Seahawk

[Graham Boak]

From looking at the top wing, they appear to be mirror images.  As usual for the period.

[Vladi]

Thanks a lot for help to everyone! Happy modeling in 2017!

[Vladi]

Hello again,

I played a bit with the 2 best photos I have of Canberra in summer 1942 and enlarged the Walrus on them, see below. It still does not help to solve the yellow roundel overpainted yes/no question but it seems to me it may have a lighter bottom half of the hull (sky blue ?) than it´s upper half, with a demarcation, but I may be wrong. Would anyone have a clearer version of either photo to play with? If so I would be grateful for the full photo as a reference for my Canberra build, thanks!

Enlarged and cropped from https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/HMAS_Canberra_1942.jpg

 

Enlarged and cropped from https://flic.kr/p/Qi98ny

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Vladi
crops did not show up

[MikeR]

Considering the lighting conditions in the first photo putting the rear fuselage in the shade, to my own inexpert eye it does look as if the aircraft did have the higher demarcation line.

 

Mike.

Edited January 3, 2017 by MikeR

[Vladi]

Hello,

I just wanted to let you all know that I was now able to finish my 1/700 HMAS Canberra in her as-lost configuration, including her Supermarine Walrus. I posted an article about my build at the Shipmodels forum http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=165672.
I am really happy I managed to finish her just in time for the 75th anniversary of her final battle.

Once again, many thanks for helping me with exchanging knowledge and opinion in this thread!

[Ed Russell]

You have done a great job on her - excellent research and modelling!

[Vladi]

Thanks a lot, Ed!

[stevehnz]

I've been over & had a look at it, what a magic thread. I'll refer back to it, your references especially will get some follow up. Your photos of the model are sublime as is the model itself.

Steve.

[Admiral Puff]

You've done the old girl proud! That's a stunner, particularly considering it's in 1:700.