1/72 P.1000 Ratte German Mega-Tank - Modelcollect

[HMSLion]

I'm convinced the Luftwaffe/Panzer '46 interest comes from the fact that the Germans had so many outrageous paper pipe dreams.  The Allies...their crazy ideas either got scrapped, or saw service.  Meteors, P-80s, and so on.  Not to mention the ultimate high-tech gadget...the atomic bomb.

[Joona]

38 minutes ago, HMSLion said:

I'm convinced the Luftwaffe/Panzer '46 interest comes from the fact that the Germans had so many outrageous paper pipe dreams.  The Allies...their crazy ideas either got scrapped, or saw service.  Meteors, P-80s, and so on.  Not to mention the ultimate high-tech gadget...the atomic bomb.

This is a bit offtopic, but the P-80 was a disaster. I can understand Gloster Meteor was designed with conventional straight wings. But by Korean war they have should known swept wings are a must in transonic flight, let alone supersonic. If from nothing else, then at least by operation Paperclip. Maybe the "liberated" German engineers held back intentionally to have an ace up their sleeve. In Russia you do not hold back, the back holds YOU!!!

 

There is also a great documentary of the pilferring of the Rolls-Royce engine on Aerocinema. But I guess most if not all know that site already.

 

I think it is the craziness and also ingenuity of the ideas is what fascinates most. Not any political motives. And maybe some romance that is shared by all humans. Like that poor sweetheart test pilot of the Natter.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Joona

[Learstang]

I will have to say that this kit intrigues me. A lot. I don't do much armour (still working on my 1/72nd scale ISU-152), but this monster is so outrageous that I might just have to buy it. Looking at Modelcollect's site, and seeing the amount of the Soviet/Russian models they also sell, I certainly don't think there's any pro-Nazi bias on their part. I will certainly be tempted by this kit. Now about that (semi-)mobile Dora, General, time to start talking to the good folks at Modelcollect about that one. If this is a land cruiser, that was more of a land battleship. It probably had little landing pads for Kolibris. Actually, it probably had some landing strips for the Storch.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

Edited January 24, 2018 by Learstang
Additional comment added.

[Joona]

11 minutes ago, Learstang said:

I It probably had little landing pads for Kolibris. Actually, it probably had some landing strips for the Storch.

Well, that's why I am gonna add one Kolibri. A Storkie would be overdoing even the overdoing. Too much guns on the deck. Having main hellbores.. er, guns reaching about 30 klicks would make even less sense if there was no forward observer with IR sights. RT models makes one in 1/72, although it is a hell to build. Almost more flash than the right stuff with all those tiny frames. And the fit is straight from Adolf's bottom. Maybe I'll add just a few Panzerblitz missiles under scratchbuilt winglettes to make it look a bit like a modern attack helo. Just to make the joke even worse

 

And of course some Würtzburg radar dishes for the AA targeting. Imagination sticking to realism is my cup of tea. I am the Lizard King. I can do anything... physically feasible.

[Sabre_days]

2 hours ago, Joona said:

This is a bit offtopic, but the P-80 was a disaster. I can understand Gloster Meteor was designed with conventional straight wings. But by Korean war they have should known swept wings are a must in transonic flight, let alone supersonic. If from nothing else, then at least by operation Paperclip. Maybe the "liberated" German engineers held back intentionally to have an ace up their sleeve. In Russia you do not hold back, the back holds YOU!!!

 

The P-80 was hardly a disaster...it was outmoded as a frontline fighter by the Korean War, but that's because it was a World War II design (first flight in January '44, and a few of them flew recon missions over Italy before V-E Day) that was still in service in Korea, just like the F-51, F4U, Meteor and Sea Fury. Judged by the standards of its day, it was quite advanced...I remember reading that Chuck Yeager's biggest impression after flying both the P-80 and a captured Me.262 was how similar their performance and handling were.

 

As for swept wings...both the British and the Americans were fully aware of the need for swept wings in transonic flight by the end of the War (as William Norton points out in U.S. Experimental & Prototype Aircraft Projects: Fighters 1939-1945, the configuration of the F7U Cutlass was frozen before Vought had access to German data), using German wind tunnel data was just a shortcut the Allies took to avoid having to redo all the testing themselves.

 

(Sorry for going further off-topic...)

[Joona]

1 hour ago, Sabre_days said:

 

The P-80 was hardly a disaster...it was outmoded as a frontline fighter by the Korean War, but that's because it was a World War II design

Pardon me. I didn't mean it was a disaster in its own right. The disaster was putting it against MiG-15s as an outdated kite. But although I consider myself an aerospace buff, I didn't realise it was indeed that old. So they hadn't learned of the Me-262 yet. That explains a lot And I guess nobody really expected the Spanish Inquisition of Soviets so quickly copying German aeroframe designs and British engines. Thank you for the reminder.

[SleeperService]

5 hours ago, Joona said:

Finally back to the subject. They finally (almost) released the deck guns set for the bolo... excuse me, the Ratte. I don't really know what to think of it. On the other hand, it smells like releasing the weapons set separately is a scam to get one pay even more. On the other, it might be taken as a favour to build these while waiting for the chassis to be completed. I don't care, really. I am happy to build these little nasties while waiting.

 

http://www.modelcollect.com/wwii-germany-landcruiser-p1000-ratte-weapon-set-pack

Looking at what you get for the money this seems very good value and gives lots of conversion potential for real and WiF subjects.

Thanks for the background on Iron Sky, I always wondered if it started like that now we know!

Sarge makes a good point about blurring reality in WoT but, IMHO I don't think it's any worse than any other area. Conspiracy Theories, Piltdown man, WoT, and all these false schemes for aircraft have all had their moment of fame and will again. What has changed is that such stuff is easier  to spread nowadays but it's also easier to check out....

Will I buy one? No. Will others? Oh Yes. Some will be steam-punked, others sci-fi'd and others put in different ownership. All will be impressive.  

[Giorgio N]

14 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That's a big part of my proplem with all this Panzer/Luft 46 garbage.....There still isn't a 1/72 Panther Ausf A that's worth the effort of assembling, yet they can waste their time on that drivel (and let's make no mistake about it, it's drivel with neo-nazi roots).

 

I'm with you on this Sgt ! I've seen the same a few years ago with aircraft models when even mainstream companies at some point issued Lufwaffe 46 subjects while forgetting others that served in real combat operations. Today this mania seems to have faded, at least in aircraft modelling.

Regarding the reasons for the big interest in these subjects, I may add that part of the glorification of Nazi Germany technology is IMHO the result of propaganda in the West after the war: we were told that the Germans had very advanced aircrafts and tanks and everything else so that the Allied victory looked even brighter. It's something that still continues in TV programs and the like, fortunately we enthusiasts tend to have a much better knowledge of what actually was advanced and what was just a waste of time.

 

 

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, Joona said:

Pardon me. I didn't mean it was a disaster in its own right. The disaster was putting it against MiG-15s as an outdated kite. But although I consider myself an aerospace buff, I didn't realise it was indeed that old. So they hadn't learned of the Me-262 yet. That explains a lot And I guess nobody really expected the Spanish Inquisition of Soviets so quickly copying German aeroframe designs and British engines. Thank you for the reminder.

 

Sabre_Days already covered why the P-80 was not a disaster at all.

Let me add that your description of the events here is not correct: the P-80 was initially used in Korea simply because this type was operational with the 5th Air Force in the Pacific. This was not considered a particularly important theatre and the newest aircrafts were all based where they were deemed more important so much that when the war in Korea started, the P-80 was the most advanced aircraft in theatre and was able to quickly defeat any opposition.

When the MiG-15s appeared, the USAF immediately reacted by moving a Wing of F-86As in the theatre, something that was done in less than a month. The P-80 was never put against MiG-15s as a decision from the USAF, it was in theatre before the war, maintained air superiority until the arrival of the MiGs and then was moved to the ground attack role, in which it was in time replaced by the F-84 and later the F-86.

And there was very little that the P-80 had to learn from the Me.262! The Messerschmitt type was in many aspects inferior to the Shooting Star. The swept wing of the 262 was not even there for aerodynamic purpose, the outer wing sections were swept for balance reasons, other types were supposed to be the first proper swept wing aircrafts of the Luftwaffe. And yet the myth of the swept winged Me.262 continues....

[Joona]

8 hours ago, SleeperService said:

Looking at what you get for the money this seems very good value and gives lots of conversion potential for real and WiF subjects.

Thanks for the background on Iron Sky, I always wondered if it started like that now we know!

Sarge makes a good point about blurring reality in WoT but, IMHO I don't think it's any worse than any other area. Conspiracy Theories, Piltdown man, WoT, and all these false schemes for aircraft have all had their moment of fame and will again. What has changed is that such stuff is easier  to spread nowadays but it's also easier to check out....

Will I buy one? No. Will others? Oh Yes. Some will be steam-punked, others sci-fi'd and others put in different ownership. All will be impressive.  

Thank you, sir. It is not in my authority to decide who is right or wrong, but it is in my authority to say I like your attitude. Whenever planning dioramas especially of this massive scale, I think of a backstory first.

 

The backstory here in a nutshell is that Western Allies went "Patton". Meaning they realised early enough who is even worse than nazis. So they did off with Adolf and his nazi cronies and allied with "good" Germans to keep Soviets out from Europe. In this alternate history Rommel is alive, and Wittmann is not a nazi, just a brilliant panzer commander for the Rat. Happens somewhere in Eastern Europe about autumn, fourty six. Autumn really only because I love the ruska of the trees blazing in all colours. Maybe I will put some Finns in just to make the joke even worse.

 

This is not a political statement. Just some alternate what if history. Or rather WTF history. But I won't add aliens making this mess even worse, like in Pournelle's World War epic. Or maybe just one lizard scout in the bushes...

[Mike]

When can we have the Ratte then please?  Oh, and Iron Sky 2?  I need to know

[Sgt.Squarehead]

14 hours ago, Learstang said:

Now about that (semi-)mobile Dora, General, time to start talking to the good folks at Modelcollect about that one.

What's wrong with the Trumpeter version:

 

[Mike]

Or this one?

 

[SleeperService]

21 minutes ago, Mike said:

Or this one?

 

Divorces are made by that kit. I believe it was originally bankrolled by a lawyer's pension fund

[Learstang]

No, the General and myself were talking about a truly loony version that was mounted on multiple caterpillar tracks, like an impossibly large self-propelled artillery piece, or a military version of NASA's Crawler-transporter. It was proposed, but never made it near getting any metal cut for it. It would have made the Ratte look like a Brengun carrier.

 

Regards,

 

Jason         

[Joona]

1 hour ago, SleeperService said:

Divorces are made by that kit. I believe it was originally bankrolled by a lawyer's pension fund

Holy hells! THAT thing in 1/35 makes even me faint. But I think folks here mean the planned big sister of the Ratte. Landkreuzer 1500 Monster. A Dora on tracks. Also cancelled by Speer, who seemed to be the only one there having at least some sense, nazi or not.

 

But that is only in puny 1/144.

 

 

I like this rendering better, though...

 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, SleeperService said:

Divorces are made by that kit.

I think that building and displaying it is what causes the issue. I'll build mine when I've won the lottery and have loads of spare rooms to fill with all the big models I have

[Albeback52]

10 hours ago, Joona said:

Holy hells! THAT thing in 1/35 makes even me faint. But I think folks here mean the planned big sister of the Ratte. Landkreuzer 1500 Monster. A Dora on tracks. Also cancelled by Speer, who seemed to be the only one there having at least some sense, nazi or not.

 

But that is only in puny 1/144.

 

 

I like this rendering better, though...

 

Wow!! I have got to get me one of those!! I can really live with that sort of drivel and garbage!! . Look nice next to my Takom Ratte!. While the 1/72 Modelcollect P.1000 is currently unaffordable I've got a good number of their smaller 1/72 AFVs. Mostly E-50/E-75/E-100 variants.It's this kind of imaginative subject that really got me back into armour modelling. I have little interest in endless Shermans, T-34s, Tigers etc!  I accept not everybody's cup of tea though

 

Allan

[Joona]

2 hours ago, Albeback52 said:

Wow!! I have got to get me one of those!! I can really live with that sort of drivel and garbage!! . Look nice next to my Takom Ratte!. While the 1/72 Modelcollect P.1000 is currently unaffordable I've got a good number of their smaller 1/72 AFVs. Mostly E-50/E-75/E-100 variants.It's this kind of imaginative subject that really got me back into armour modelling. I have little interest in endless Shermans, T-34s, Tigers etc!  I accept not everybody's cup of tea though

 

Allan

I know what you mean. Being speculative fiction although based on some guidelines from reality, it gives more room for creativity. Actual historical "museum pieces" do have their own charm, too. But sometimes you just wanna go a bit crazy.

[HMSLion]

On 1/24/2018 at 12:24 PM, Joona said:

The backstory here in a nutshell is that Western Allies went "Patton". Meaning they realised early enough who is even worse than nazis. So they did off with Adolf and his nazi cronies and allied with "good" Germans to keep Soviets out from Europe.

Maybe.  An alternative...the July 20 1944 attempt on Hitler's life succeeds.  By 1 August, a junta of German Generals is running the country, the Nazi leadership is dead or under arrest.  The junta enters talks with the Allies for an armistice.  The Western powers are willing, having a war with Japan to win.  The Soviets...not so much.  The Western Powers make a separate peace, the Germans and Soviets have it out in '46 and '47.

[Joona]

9 minutes ago, HMSLion said:

Maybe.  An alternative...the July 20 1944 attempt on Hitler's life succeeds.  By 1 August, a junta of German Generals is running the country, the Nazi leadership is dead or under arrest.  The junta enters talks with the Allies for an armistice.  The Western powers are willing, having a war with Japan to win.  The Soviets...not so much.  The Western Powers make a separate peace, the Germans and Soviets have it out in '46 and '47.

About so. I know some hardcore nazis like Hans Ulrich Rudel (read his autobiography) also wanted the Patton solution. Despite his questionable motives, Rudel was respected for his ground attack pilot skills. Enough to be a consultant in designing the A-10 Warthog. Douglas Bader himself took the POW to his manor and arranged a better prosthetic leg. As the Yanks he originally surrendered to stole even that among his Ritterkreuz and other decorations. I do not wish to diss Yanks generally, but in this particular case Brits had more honour.

Thanks for the inspiration. As I have told, there must be a beefed up Koliibri scout / attack helo. And who would be better piloting that than Rudel? This is starting to sound like an all-star cast of old farts like the Expendables

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Oh FFS! 

 

That's not directed at you @Joona BTW. 

 

 

[Joona]

3 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Oh FFS! 

 

That's not directed at you @Joona BTW. 

 

 

Oh, I trust it is not, kersantti. Just wondering at what?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Really? 

 

Given my comments to date I'd have thought it was pretty obvious. 

 

Noted your points about Rudel above, frankly he's small fish compared to Gehlen.....Should both have had their final vile thoughts while facing a wall in 1945, rather than escaping to share them with the rest of the world IMHO. 

 

 

[Joona]

On 26/01/2018 at 06:47, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Noted your points about Rudel above, frankly he's small fish compared to Gehlen.....Should both have had their final vile thoughts while facing a wall in 1945, rather than escaping to share them with the rest of the world IMHO. 

 

 

Well, I definitely agree Rudel was a complete nazi poopchute. I do not agree with a death sentence in any circumstances, though. That would make us just as bad as them. Interestingly enough, if you read about Bader, his ultra right wing conservative and racist approach was very close to nazi nastiness. Yet, pilots have a certain code of honour. That has been tarnished in the realities of war, though.

 

I am still the hopeless romantic. Although I disagree with anything nazi / stalinist, I cannot help being moved by the story of the Natter test pilot. He had been demoted for drunken disorderly conduct. And given a chance to redeem himself. The letter to his bride, stating something like "I may not return from this alive, but I will always love you" is touching. A flaming nazi or not. And I don't actually know his political motives, and in this respect they do not matter.