Some Fairey Swordfish questions, and some Fleet Air Arm paint matching

[MeneMene]

I recently acquired the 1/48th Tamiya Swordfish Mk. II. 

 

1) The only exhausts provided in the kit are the porcupine exhausts. Were these a distinguishing feature of the Mk. II and beyond? Broadly used, or not very? I ask because most pictures of torpedo-armed aircraft I can find have the normal short exhausts.

 

2) I'd like to do a Swordfish Mk. II with No 810 sqdn on HMS Illustrious in the Indian Ocean during the Madagascar landings. As best I've been able to tell, Illustrious carried both Swordfish I and II aircraft at this time. Would the Mk. II's have plausibly been involved in the torpedo and bomb armed anti-shipping strikes, or would they have instead been prioritized to ASW/patrol because of their radar/rockets? I'd really like to do a torpedo-carrying version, but all of the famous Swordfish torpedo actions early in the war involved Mk. I aircraft. Of course, you can't prove a negative, but if the Mk. II's could have been involved I'd like to do a torpedo option, just not if it was very unlikely.

 

3) Would a torpedo anti-shipping strike have carried anything else in the way of ordinance? I have options for rockets, bombs, and smoke/illumination bombs.

 

4) Vallejo colors are the easiest for me to obtain and work with, but their RAF color matching is suspect. I've spent the last few days doing some research, and I think what i have below is close enough, but can anyone confirm? This is my first RAF/RN aircraft so I don't have any experience with the correct colors:

Extra Dark Sea Grey, FS 26118, 71.005

Dark Slate Grey, FS 34096, 71.013

Sky, FS 34424, 71.009

 

Thanks in advance for any help

[Nick Millman]

Re 4)

26118 is a good match for EDSG

34096 is too green for Dark Slate Grey - 34086 is closer in hue but slightly darker.

34424 is a fair match for Sky. 

 

Nick

[tempestfan]

Isn't x6118 Gunship Gray? While the a in the gray would imply it isn't a pure black /white mix, I'd have thought EDSG is somewhat bluer. And Nick, I'm working on the two Jakes...

[Nick Millman]

EDSG vs 26118 = 0.84 where < 2.0 = a close match

EDSG vs 36118 = 4.61

 

EDSG is Munsell 1.9 PB (Purple Blue) 3.4/1.1

FS 26118 is Munsell 2.3 PB 3.5/1.2

FS 36118 is Munsell 1.8 PB 3.9/1.1 

 

26118/36118 colour chip pigments: Rutile Titanium Dioxide (white) + Phthalocyanine Blue (Green Shade) + Carbazole Violet + Carbon Black (Blue Shade)

 

36118 is officially listed in FS 595C Appendix IV Master Color List as equivalent to Gunship Gray and ANA 603 Sea Gray. ANA 603 Sea Gray was the US equivalent to EDSG with the latter hue accepted as standard.

 

The real colours are not always the hobby paints most often used/preferred to represent them. 

 

Nick

 

[LaurieS]

3 hours ago, MeneMene said:

I recently acquired the 1/48th Tamiya Swordfish Mk. II. 

 

1) The only exhausts provided in the kit are the porcupine exhausts. Were these a distinguishing feature of the Mk. II and beyond? Broadly used, or not very? I ask because most pictures of torpedo-armed aircraft I can find have the normal short exhausts.

 

2) I'd like to do a Swordfish Mk. II with No 810 sqdn on HMS Illustrious in the Indian Ocean during the Madagascar landings. As best I've been able to tell, Illustrious carried both Swordfish I and II aircraft at this time. Would the Mk. II's have plausibly been involved in the torpedo and bomb armed anti-shipping strikes, or would they have instead been prioritized to ASW/patrol because of their radar/rockets? I'd really like to do a torpedo-carrying version, but all of the famous Swordfish torpedo actions early in the war involved Mk. I aircraft. Of course, you can't prove a negative, but if the Mk. II's could have been involved I'd like to do a torpedo option, just not if it was very unlikely.

 

3) Would a torpedo anti-shipping strike have carried anything else in the way of ordinance? I have options for rockets, bombs, and smoke/illumination bombs.

 

4) Vallejo colors are the easiest for me to obtain and work with, but their RAF color matching is suspect. I've spent the last few days doing some research, and I think what i have below is close enough, but can anyone confirm? This is my first RAF/RN aircraft so I don't have any experience with the correct colors:

Extra Dark Sea Grey, FS 26118, 71.005

Dark Slate Grey, FS 34096, 71.013

Sky, FS 34424, 71.009

 

Thanks in advance for any help

 

Mene. Email the curator of the Fleet Air Arm Museum Yeovilton with your queries.

 

When building my Swordfish I asked for information on the wing struts ( they are not rigging).

I got some great information back. Plus photos of Swordfish in action from the squadron I was using.

 

They will give you the colours. Plus all the inf. you list. Fantastic service.

 

Also they have a great museum. Notice you live on Planet Earth. Their Museum is also situated

there. As this so convenient it would be worth a visit to see their Swordfish.

 

Laurie

[Graham Boak]

The Mk.IIs would not have had rockets that early.  Torpedo carriers would not have been able to lift additional ordnance - flares are perhaps arguable in terms of weight but would normally be carried by other aircraft in the formation.  The ideal would be to drop them on the opposite side of the target from the attack so that the target was illuminated against them.

 

The a in Sea Gray is simply the normal US English usage.  Normal British English usage is the e in Dark Sea Grey.  I have seen it said that, in British English, gray means neutral and e means a tinge of another hue, but I've not seen that confirmed and it is not mentioned in the Concise Oxford Dictionary.

[MeneMene]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The Mk.IIs would not have had rockets that early.  Torpedo carriers would not have been able to lift additional ordnance - flares are perhaps arguable in terms of weight but would normally be carried by other aircraft in the formation.  The ideal would be to drop them on the opposite side of the target from the attack so that the target was illuminated against them.

 

So are the Tamiya instructions incorrect in portraying a No.810 sqdn Swordfish Mk. II in the Indian Ocean with Illustrious in May 1942? Wikipedia says that production of the Sworfdish III began in 1943, and that the differences included radar, metal wing undersurfaces to allow for rockets, and possibly a more powerful engine. So would all the Swordfish aircraft in the 1942 Madagascar campaigns have been Swordfish I, and Tamiya is incorrect? Does this mean that essentially all Swordfish II and beyond aircraft were essentially just escort carrier or Coastal Command based, and wouldn't have carried torpedoes often if at all?

 

Quote

The a in Sea Gray is simply the normal US English usage. 

 

Yes, sorry, you'll have to forgive my Americanisms.

 

Quote

26118 is a good match for EDSG

34096 is too green for Dark Slate Grey - 34086 is closer in hue but slightly darker.

34424 is a fair match for Sky.

 

Perfect, thanks

 

Quote

Email the curator of the Fleet Air Arm Museum Yeovilton with your queries.

 

I'll try that

[Nick Millman]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

 

The a in Sea Gray is simply the normal US English usage.  Normal British English usage is the e in Dark Sea Grey.  I have seen it said that, in British English, gray means neutral and e means a tinge of another hue, but I've not seen that confirmed and it is not mentioned in the Concise Oxford Dictionary.

 

In his book 'Chromatography; or, a Treatise on Colours and Pigments, and of their Powers in Painting' (1835) the chemist George Field makes that distinction between grey and gray, now largely reduced to a matter of transatlantic spelling. He asserted grey to be a simple mixture of black and white, whilst the presence of a third subsidiary pigment resulted in a gray. 

 

 

[iang]

16 hours ago, MeneMene said:

I'd like to do a Swordfish Mk. II with No 810 sqdn on HMS Illustrious in the Indian Ocean during the Madagascar landings. As best I've been able to tell, Illustrious carried both Swordfish I and II aircraft at this time. Would the Mk. II's have plausibly been involved in the torpedo and bomb armed anti-shipping strikes, or would they have instead been prioritized to ASW/patrol because of their radar/rockets? I'd really like to do a torpedo-carrying version, but all of the famous Swordfish torpedo actions early in the war involved Mk. I aircraft. Of course, you can't prove a negative, but if the Mk. II's could have been involved I'd like to do a torpedo option, just not if it was very unlikely.

 

I don't think there were any Mk I Swordfish on Illustrious for Ironclad. I have copies of the Admiralty documents relating to Ironclad and from these, and other sources,  I have pieced together most of the serials for the 20 Swordfish embarked by Illustrious.  I've also quite a few photographs taken on Illustrious during Ironclad, which are in a crew members photo album that I own, and all of the Swordfish are Mk ll.  Illustrious had a hangar fire in early April, so some of the Ironclad Swordfish are replacements for those destroyed in the fire.

 

The Admiralty documents give the codes of Swordfish by role, over the three day period of the oprations. The bombers were generally equipped with 6 x 250lb SAP or GP, though some had 4 X 250lb GP  plus 4 x 45lb anti-personnel. Torpedo aircraft were just equipped with this weapon (only six of them - I have the codes for all of these, though not all the serials).  AS patrol Swordfish carried 2 x Mk VII depth charges. The only other configurations were 2 x smoke float equipped aircraft and 3 x dummy parachute equipped.  

 

HTH,

Ian

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2016 by iang

[MeneMene]

4 minutes ago, iang said:

I don't think there were any Mk I Swordfish on Illustrious for Ironclad. I have copies of the Admiralty documents relating to Ironclad and from these, and other sources,  I have pieced together most of the serials for the 20 Swordfish embarked by Illustrious.  I've also quite a few photographs taken on Illustrious during Ironclad, which are in a crew members photo album that I own, and all of the Swordfish are Mk ll.  Illustrious had a hangar fire in early April, so some of the Ironclad Swordfish are replacements for those destroyed in the fire.

 

The Admiralty documents give the codes of Swordfish by role, over the three day period of the oprations. The bombers were generally equipped with 6 x 250lb SAP or GP, though some had 4 X 250lb plus 4 x 45 anti-personnel. Torpedo aircraft were just equipped with this weapon (only six of them).  AS patrol Swordfish carried 2 x Mk VII depth charges. The only other configurations were 2 x smoke float equipped aircraft and 3 x dummy parachute equipped.

 

Perfect, thank you so much. That leaves only the exhaust question unanswered. Almost all of the pictures I've been able to find of this time period have the normal short exhausts, not the porcupine stacks, which are the only ones specified by the Tamiya kit.

[iang]

All the photos I have seen for this operation show short exhausts.  Which aircraft are you going to model?  If you give me the code I can tell you the appropriate weapon load.

 

 

[MeneMene]

8 minutes ago, iang said:

All the photos I have seen for this operation show short exhausts.  Which aircraft are you going to model?  If you give me the code I can tell you the appropriate weapon load.

 

A red 2F behind the roundels, HS 164 as the tail code. I'm just going by the Tamiya instructions, so I don't have a source about how accurate those are.

 

Also, regardless of the weapon load, I'm guessing I should leave the rocket rails off?

[Grey Beema]

Do you need to check the oil cooler (?) was the MkI cooler smaller than the MKII (I could have imagined that)...

[iang]

HS164 was coded 2F with 810 Squadron in 1942, but not for operation Ironclad.

For Ironclad,  2F was V4704 and the codes were black outlined in white behind the roundel. 2F was equipped with 6 x 250lb SAP and was part of the force attacking the French submarine Beveziers on 5/5/42. 

Edited December 26, 2016 by iang

[MeneMene]

6 minutes ago, iang said:

HS164 was coded 2F with 810 Squadron in 1942, but not for operation Ironclad.

For Ironclad,  2F was V4704 and the codes were black outlined in white behind the roundel. 2F was equipped with 6 x 250lb SAP and was part of the force attacking the French submarine Beveziers on 5/5/42. 

 

Thanks, very informative. Do you have any other information about HS164 as 2F then? Did it only join the squadron after Ironclad while the squadron was based in South Africa?

[iang]

6 minutes ago, MeneMene said:

 

Thanks, very informative. Do you have any other information about HS164 as 2F then? Did it only join the squadron after Ironclad while the squadron was based in South Africa?

 

For HS164, I only have the data recorded in Sturtivant's Fleet Air Arm Aircraft.  According to Sturtivant,  it was delivered in June 1942 and taken on charge by 810 Squadron in November 1942 and ditched in January 1943. The codes would still be black outlined in white at this stage.

Edited December 26, 2016 by iang

[Graham Boak]

Thanks Nick.  But has Field's usage gone into general or even specialised use?  It must have appeared somewhere more recent, for I have encountered it without ever reading Field.  Is it still in contemporary use?

[MeneMene]

35 minutes ago, iang said:

 

For HS164, I only have the data recorded in Sturtivant's Fleet Air Arm Aircraft.  According to Sturtivant,  it was delivered in June 1942 and taken on charge by 810 Squadron in November 1942 and ditched in January 1943. The codes would still be black outlined in white at this stage.

 

Ok, thanks for all your help. Seems there are some inaccuracies in Tamiya's representation. I'll probably do an aircraft with HMS Tracker in 1943, HS158 with 816 squadron, anti-submarine duty.

 

A final question for you very helpful people, this aircraft has a set of four tubes in a line, emerging diagonally from the belly of the rear fuselage. Any ideas as to what they are?

[iang]

A mistake. Leave them off. Tamiya seem to have misinterpreted a photo of a rocket equipped Swordfish with folded wings.

 

[Francis Macnaughton]

Can anyone clarify for what roles a Swordfish II would have retained the radar display (I presume it would be mounted on the console facing the observor) and which would have had it removed?   I assume the aerials are retained regardless of role.  Tamiya don't incorporate the display in their offering so that would suggest only certain roles could be modelled.

[iang]

I'm less certain on the technical details, but I think only for use in the ASV role.  ASV modifications were commonly performed at sea (for example, 12 out of 20 of Illustrious' Swordfish were ASV converted en route to Operation Ironclad). Whether that means the physical aerials or the radar display or both I'm not sure. 

 

HTH

 

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by iang

[Nick Millman]

19 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Thanks Nick.  But has Field's usage gone into general or even specialised use?  It must have appeared somewhere more recent, for I have encountered it without ever reading Field.  Is it still in contemporary use?

 

I think the distinction was in decreasing use after that as pedantry but still referenced here and there, something probably more familiar to artists than in general but now pretty much lost in obscurity and transatlantic spelling differences. By 1928, for example, Payne's Grey, which is a tinted gray, was being referred to as having alternative spellings grey or gray without comment. Methuen (1961) doesn't make the distinction, referring only to grey and giving the etymology for that from the Old Norse for 'dawn'.

 

Nick

[LaurieS]

1 hour ago, Nick Millman said:

 

I By 1928, for example, Payne's Grey, which is a tinted gray, was being referred to as having alternative spellings grey or gray

Nick

 

To be a Pedant (just love it), Nick, just to correct. Paynes grey (gray) is Black with a tinge of blue added. Not a tinted grey.

 

As a young budding architect when the stick of Paynes Grey was missing we used just that the black stick with a smidgen of Prussian blue.

 

Laurie

[Nick Millman]

46 minutes ago, LaurieS said:

 

To be a Pedant (just love it), Nick, just to correct. Paynes grey (gray) is Black with a tinge of blue added. Not a tinted grey.

 

As a young budding architect when the stick of Paynes Grey was missing we used just that the black stick with a smidgen of Prussian blue.

 

Laurie

 

"Payne's grey (or 'gray') was similar to the product known as neutral tint, but with different proportions of the compound pigments (typically indigo or ultramarine, a carbon-based black and sepia, ochre or red lake."

 

from the Pigment Compendium . A 1928 treatise gives a composition of black, ultramarine and ochre. The result is a tinted grey rather than a grey made from black and white. The clue is in the name unless you want to call it "Payne's Black". 

 

Strictly speaking, to see your pedantry and raise you mine, tinting means adding white to a colour whereas shading means adding black. Toning is adding both black and white, e.g. grey. But colour tinting is in general usage and since the colour(s) are added to the black in this case I'll fold. ;-)  

 

But my point was more about the alternative spelling of grey and gray as cited above. 

 

Nick

[LaurieS]

1 hour ago, Nick Millman said:

 

"Payne's grey (or 'gray') was similar to the product known as neutral tint, but with different proportions of the compound pigments (typically indigo or ultramarine, a carbon-based black and sepia, ochre or red lake."

 

from the Pigment Compendium . A 1928 treatise gives a composition of black, ultramarine and ochre. The result is a tinted grey rather than a grey made from black and white. The clue is in the name unless you want to call it "Payne's Black". 

 

Strictly speaking, to see your pedantry and raise you mine, tinting means adding white to a colour whereas shading means adding black. Toning is adding both black and white, e.g. grey. But colour tinting is in general usage and since the colour(s) are added to the black in this case I'll fold. ;-)  

 

But my point was more about the alternative spelling of grey and gray as cited above. 

 

Nick

 

The pedantry point Nick is Paynes Grey is a base black modified not grey. The result is the grey.

 

Thinks why do I make life so complicated for myself. .

 

Laurie